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The Dangers of Harmonia and the 27 True Runes.
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LouisDude98

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:33 pm    Post subject: The Dangers of Harmonia and the 27 True Runes. Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

We all know that the 27 true runes have made, shaped and govern all aspects of the suikoden world. The Rune of Punishment governs attonement and forgiveness, the sould eater governs life and death, the true element runes govern the elements and their influence in the world and the true circle rune governs peace harmony and balance. It is very evident that the holy harmonian empire has a very great interest in acquiring the 27 true runes. I'll back that up by the following.

1)Solar Year 70: Destruction of the Gate Rune Clan
Seeking the Gate Rune, Harmonian soldiers massacred the Gate Rune Clan. Windy and Leknaat managed to escape and divided the Gate rune. Leknaat lost her sight in the process, but Windy and Leknaat were able to escape in separate directions to hide from Harmonia.

2)In Suikoden 4 the Kooluk Empire wanted to offer the rune of punishment to Harmonia for military back up.

3)Harmonia wanted to attain the elemental runes in suikoden three

So we know Harmonia wants the true runes, that is very obvious, but why? What could they possibly want? Well since the runes govern and shape the world is it possible that they want to control the world by controling the runes? Or maybe they want to use them as a weapon to level other countries such as luke in suikoden three. Or perhaps they are just trying to keep them out of evil's reach so there won't be a repeat of Suikoden 3, when Luke tried to destroy the world. So what do you guys think?
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Arenegeth




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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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the true circle rune governs peace harmony and balance


Eh I think it governs order and stagnation, peace in particular is governed by the rune of beginning, or at least one of the Suikoden II endings let me think so.
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Beecham

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Arenegeth is correct. The Rune of the Beginning is the True Rune which governs the concept of peace. The fact that it is missing from the world is the reason war exists. It is the Rune with "the power to end all wars." Order and stagnation is precisely how the Circle Rune has been described in the past, and I believe that is the best way to describe it. Its opposite number, the Rune of Change, certainly doesn't govern war, after all :)
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Urn

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

All those questions you ask pretty much all reflect the same thing. Harmonia has been viewed as the ultimate nation of the Suikoden World. We can't accurately say why they want to possess all 27 True Runes, but having one True Rune represents unparalleled power, so collecting them all would make you nigh invincible. So, we can surmise that power is a motive, but controlling the 27 True Runes could also be used to shap the world into what they desire or think is best.

Control is pretty much the motive of all powerful nations. Molding the world around them and making it reflect the image of what they deemed as ideal is a trait of all great rulers who are seen as superior. I believe that Harmonia wants to capture all the True Runes to shape the world into what they see as fit. Now, we can give any amount of speculations as to why. But, that's my take on it.
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Arenegeth




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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Urn wrote:
All those questions you ask pretty much all reflect the same thing. Harmonia has been viewed as the ultimate nation of the Suikoden World. We can't accurately say why they want to possess all 27 True Runes, but having one True Rune represents unparalleled power, so collecting them all would make you nigh invincible. So, we can surmise that power is a motive, but controlling the 27 True Runes could also be used to shap the world into what they desire or think is best.

Control is pretty much the motive of all powerful nations. Molding the world around them and making it reflect the image of what they deemed as ideal is a trait of all great rulers who are seen as superior. I believe that Harmonia wants to capture all the True Runes to shape the world into what they see as fit. Now, we can give any amount of speculations as to why. But, that's my take on it.


I believe that there is something deeper than that, is like most of the Super-Hero Villains that do all the evil for money, Harmonia wants all the runes for another deeper reason, it may turn out that they want all the runes in order to destroy them and at the end even become the good guys.

There ten True Runes left I would personally like to see a Suikoden that the destruction of a rune will be the main thing, I'm not talking about in the way it was done in III but successful and the game starts after the rune gets destroyed, that could give us tension and perhaps a way to bring the rune back if there is a way to destroy them they may be a way to revive them.

But more on the matter at hand, whatever Harmonia's goal is I hope is not the good old world domination and power and they add a twist to the whole thing.
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Wataru

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Based on Harmonia's social structure and the brutality it has used to obtain True Runes (a la Gate Rune Clan massacre), I seriously doubt Harmonia has any kind of altruistic motive. The only "good" reason I can hypothesize is that maybe Harmonia wants to keep all the True Runes under wraps so that their power doesn't cause more suffering. Most of the Runes have curses or darker sides to their nature, so maybe they are trying to shield humanity from them by collecting them and locking them out of sight? Um, yeah.

Anyway, even that theory is pure conjecture and has no basis on game evidence. Although, the Circle Rune's powers of order and stagnation (which seem to influence a lot of Harmonian culture and society) causing someone to collect the True Runes so as to free the world from their influece is pretty ironic.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I doubt that Harmonia has any alterior motive besides power. It appears that they want the runes, but in most cases going there is against the will of the rune. For instance the Rune of Punishment seemed like it took great lengths to avoid being captured by Kooluk and thus being attained by Harmonia. Harmonia wants unity under one banner, so it seems and the runes do not want such a thing, perhaps this is the battle of the sword and shield creating another microcosm inside the Suikoden universe, but then again, probably not. Then again, the runes are so powerful in and of themselves, why not destroy Harmonia and thus elimate where the rune doesn't want to go.

The runes, which seem to govern the Suikoden universe are clearly of power that seems to be unparalelled, which is held true by the most powerful magician in the world, Crowley, not able to reach the power of a single true rune even with all his magnificence and years, though it seems he may have mastered life and death. Such power being obtained and governed by Harmonia means that Harmonia is in power.

The only reason I really doubt that they have a noble cause is because of how they treat their citizens. IE, Franz and the like, Second and Third Class citizens. They seem to be pretty cruel to most everyone, and I can't see how past that they could want anything more than world destruction, or domination, or some evil scheme of some evil super genius in some movie or another. Plus, they also hire Mercenaries to take these runes instead of going after them themselves most of the time. Seems to me like they just want the runes as leverage over people.
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Arenegeth




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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well I don't support any particular theory, is more a matter of getting out of the cliché', I will be disappointed if it turns out they only wanted power and nothing else, it doesn't have to be that they are the good guys or anything like that but anything deeper behind it, this is Suikoden and not Avengers, I would like a twist at the end whatever that may be.

Perhaps the circle rune does have something to do with the whole thing, like a way to get out of the loop sort to speak, I just want diversity.
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Benit149

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Then again, the runes are so powerful in and of themselves, why not destroy Harmonia and thus elimate where the rune doesn't want to go.


Wasn't there that method that Luc and Sarah used to trap the other 4 elemental runes in some kind of prison? The runes certainly couldn't do anything to escape, since they were forced out of Geddoe, Chris, Hugo and Sasarai. If this method is used on the other True Runes, I have a feeling it will work.

If Harmonia really wanted to imprison the 'cursed' True Runes to keep away from society, why didn't they march in and take the Beast Rune from L'Renouille after the war was over? The Blights were pretty much gone, so Harmonia wouldn't have much reason to remain allied with former Highland. Yes, the Beast Rune left on its own accord in Maroux's time, but it's not like Harmonia doesn't know where it is.

And what was the sense behind Hikusaak cloning himself to host the TER and the TWR in Sasarai and Luc anyway? If Hikusaak didn't want people using the True Runes, he wouldn't have done that... unless he wants to control the runes through their hosts somehow, like breathing life into your own puppets to do your commands. Having one Bishop with a True Rune is pompous enough, imagine having 26 other Bishops with True Runes for you to control. You'd be impossible to stop! And with the mistreatment of True Rune villages and nations that fall under Harmonia, I'm falling with the 'striving for world stagnation' thing.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That elemental cage idea would work, but still, couldn't that be overpowered?

Harmonia wasn't after the true runes, if I am not mistaken. Only Luc and Sarah were after the runes. They weren't doing it for Harmonia. They were doing it for themselves. I don't know if Harmonia knows how to make the cages like Luc.

I assume that Sasarai might have the ability to do that, but I don't think that he would want to capture all the runes.

I don;t know what might've happened to the Beast Rune. It probably dissappeared when L' Renouille collapsed. It would be interesting to see if it would appear in later Suikodens.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

If this method is used on the other True Runes, I have a feeling it will work.

I think it was implied that the technique works on all true runes. And it isn't too hard to do either. All you need is two true runes to begin with. :P

Quote:

And what was the sense behind Hikusaak cloning himself to host the TER and the TWR in Sasarai and Luc anyway?

The best I have been able to come up with is that they were made to make it a lot harder to steal the runes. I mean while they are in those traps all you have to get to it, but when the rune has a bearer you either have to kill them or use the two rune method(I think).

Quote:

Harmonia wasn't after the true runes, if I am not mistaken.

Harmonia might not have been behind the actions of Luc(or maybe they were), but they do have a policy of collecting all true runes. I believe that was stated a couple times in 3 and sort of implied in 4.
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Benit149

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Harmonia wasn't after the true runes, if I am not mistaken. Only Luc and Sarah were after the runes. They weren't doing it for Harmonia. They were doing it for themselves. I don't know if Harmonia knows how to make the cages like Luc.


If we're talking about S3, Harmonia was more concerned about expansion rather than finding the True Runes. Luc managed to find the True Lightning, Water and Fire Runes very easily, since he probabaly knew of the First Fire Bringer War, their bearers, and that they could congregate in the Grasslands again when the need arised. Harmonia's expansionist desire after the 50-year treaty was expired managed to coincide with Luc's own desires, and thus where S3's problems originate.

Quote:
I think it was implied that the technique works on all true runes. And it isn't too hard to do either. All you need is two true runes to begin with.


Luc had no problem doing it, but I have to wonder about Sasarai using the same method in the future. Hikusaak wouldn't, since nobody but Sasarai knows where he is. And who knows what other True Runes Harmonia may have? We don't know how the devil Harmonia had the True Wind Rune, the True Earth Rune and the Beast Rune to begin with; we can only verify the Circle Rune belonging to Hikusaak.

Quote:
Harmonia might not have been behind the actions of Luc(or maybe they were), but they do have a policy of collecting all true runes. I believe that was stated a couple times in 3 and sort of implied in 4.


That policy does exist... just that it wasn't enacted in S3. Luc was the one searching this time, not Harmonia. If Harmonia was looking for True Runes instead of expanding territory, Sasarai would have taken the True Fire, Water and Lightning Runes, but he didn't b/c they shared a common enemy. Perhaps it was a destined way to renew the expired Grasslands/Harmonia treaty, although in a very strange way.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, let's see what we about Harmonia. We know that Hikusaak, leader and God King of Harmonia, has the circle rune. What does the circle rune reflect? Order. Harmony. Stagnation. But among these elements, the one I want to focus on is Order.

What happens when the 27 true runes finish their battle, are no longer clashing against one another? According to Luc, the termini; the end of the world. A world of silence universally reigned by dharma. Order.

Wouldn't the circle rune want that fate? It, the true rune reflecting order, seems as if it should have a vested interest in letting order dominate it's world. And Hikusaak has had the circle rune for a very long time. (Or has he?) It seems like runes can change their bearers - physically, we know this is true, as the Rune of Punishment shorten's it's bearers lifespans and the Bright Shield rune managed to heal Jowy in the good ending of Suikoden II. But can they do so mentally? Hikusaak has been in control of that rune longer than any other true rune handler we've met thus far. What if the rune has taken control of him? We know runes can act through objects (Star Dragon Sword) - Why not people? Maybe Hikusaak is gathering the runes because his rune is telling him to do so.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd always thought that, since I learned about the Circle Rune and him.
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Filipe

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It could also be that Harmonia is being controlled by Hikusaak who himself is being directly controlled by the circle rune. It could be that it is seeking order in things by essentially it having hold of all the true runes. Something like a, protecting the world by any means nessasary even slaughtering others to achieve it. Sure it's a bit far fetched of a plot but not completely impossible for that to be the case if you ask me.

There is also the possibility that there is a war going on literally between two runes, and the circle rune is merely trying to obtain allies so to speak. Obviously it would be with the Rune of Change. Kind of like the struggle between war and peace, to achieve one the other must take place. This is way far fetched personally but thats just an opinion of mine.
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