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suikoden... underrated or overrated?
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Cyrano

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:09 pm    Post subject: suikoden... underrated or overrated? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ok, i want to start by saying i love the suikoden series. if i didn't i wouldn't be here typing this message on a great suikoden site.


anyway. as much as i liked playing suikoden, i couln'd help myself to notice dissapointment in the people's i heard talking about suikoden( i am not nessecarly talking about people in suikox.com)


suikoden 1: - did not make a great impression in europe,
- people tought of this game as clicheé because of the elves, dwarfs and such other things.

suikoden 2: - a remake of suikoden 1 with better story plot, and some little upgrades like 3 runes instead of one, more complicated to get characters.
-still used a lot of songs form suikoden 1 hence removing the a little ... humm..( what's the word again?) hummm you know... what somethign make it individual, specific to that one.. i mean something along those lines.


suikoden 3: most people i've heard about complained about graphics ( mostly because they were used to final fanatsy X's style of images)
- there was no evil caracters hence making it boring.

suikoden 4: while a good RPG, nothing close to suikoden 2... the story was cold, underdevelopped,
- lots of characters ( especialy the hero) had no characters
- the voice acting sucked and did not fit for a lot of them
- the story plot between snowe and hero4 is a pale remake of jowy and hero2's friendship plot.



i just couldn't hlep myself quesitoning upon those comments... have i been idolizing suikoden too much? yet i have my own thinking about the suikoden serie...

suikoden 1:- hey its the first!! you can'T expect things to go execptionally great the first time.

suikoden 2: its like a better version of suikoden 1 where the first was some sort of "beta"version to make the second a masterpiece.

suikoden 3: well i was also dissapointed with many things yet the plotwist and story line was great in my opinion
-the fact that there were no "evil' caracters, showed that war are not nesseceraly made by "evil" person. and the fatc how the main" evil" played his card( manipulating ans such) shows how people can changes qith what they experience( though they showed it in suikoden 2, too)


suikoden 4: - sure, some voices were just annoying, yet there were some that were soooo cool, like ted, lino en kuldes, his little bald "minister", eleanor( she really sounded like and old drunkard), snowe ( who was the most human in the crew)
- thought it was a little "easy" and people complained about the game being short, i still think this game was longer, if got trhougt this game in 30 hours and it took me only 18 hour of suikoden 1 and 22 hours for suikoden 2. i can say this gmae was a tad longer( of course that included the movies scene since i include that in the movie scene.
- people complained about the story being underdeveloped.... while i agree that there wera some thing that left me wiht more question than answer... i just can say that it was the first time suikoden introduced voices.
( and no, the scream of odessa in suikoden 1 does not count)

in my opinion, sukoden 4 should have made the release later and pmade a second disk so they could have had enough "space" to develop some things in it...( i mean... when we attack the last fortess, i mean to ask myself... maannnn... THIS is not supposed to be a final fortress... and i felt like it was too soon.. that i shouldNt be there.. already... ho well.
maybe they will fix that in "RAPHSODIA"


well finally i think that while only suikoden 2 was a masterpiece, the others suikoden were also VERY enjoyable...


i wanted to tell that and ask what was the opinion of you guys.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Let's look at it this way. Suikoden took two games to make a masterpiece. Final fantasy is the only other series I can think of that's accomplished a masterpiece in terms of Turn based RPGs, and it took them 6 tries (not including mystic quest) to get it right. Granted the seventh try surpassed even that of the sixth, but still, the acclaimed masters of Square took that long to produce something of incredible quality, while Konami only took two tries, and I would say that the second Suikoden is almost equal with the seventh final fantasy, easily better than the sixth in every way.

Anyway, Suikoden is underrated, for one simple reason; every single video game ever has flaws, and yet most are overlooked if a game is good enough, and while eahc of these games did have flaws, they are minute when compared to the amount of wonder in each one. Why shouldn't Suikoden get the treatment of overlooking small detrements?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Suikoden 1- Underrated
Suikoden 2-Overrated
Sukoden 3-Underrated
Suikoden 4-Plain bad.

Suikoden 1 was somehow not too popular at the time of it's release. However, as Suikdoen 2 arrived, people started to look differently about the first Suikoden. But according to my opinion, Suikoden 2 was overrated. It wasn't really that good. I find The first Suikoden more interesting. Now, Suikoden 3 was also underrated. This is possibly due to the weird character body proportions. But it has been implemented with 2 things: a great storyline and an all-new, unique feature, the trinity system. For Suikoden 4, the game was altogether just a horrible game and worth only buying for Suikoden fans.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Every series has its ups and downs... The suikoden series in my opinion is among the best RPGs I have played, but is STRONGLY underrated as compared to the Final Fantasy series, in which is STRONGLY overrated...

Another series that is EVEN MORE STRONGLY underrated series is the Tales series of Namco... It is really difficult to even find any information site at all, and the games has the best storylines of all...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's hard to consider a game over and underrated. The Final Fantasy series has a better following due to the great job they do of marketing their product outside of their localized territories a.k.a. Japan. Suikoden did not have the budget to extend their marketing strategies therefore limiting the amount of individuals they could access outside of Japan. So, if you consider the fact that the series is great, but less known then I'd consider Suikoden widely underrated. But, I consider that an issue of marketing strategy. The quality of each game in the series is quite strong enough to make it a household name, but you won't buy something you don't know about or rarely hear about. It's sad that Konami has not decided to invest more time into investing on advertizing the Suikoden series.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

suikoden 3: there was no evil caracters


Do you mean evil characters as in characters of questionable morality who join yuor cause (pirates/bandits/thieves/etc.) I think Luc and company were pretty evil (except Sarah that is).
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Pretty good question to ask this community.

I must say that right now my faith in Suikoden is waning. My opinion of RPGs as a genre is starting to fade actually, and I find myself a lot more attracted to action and platforming games lately. That said, I still think Suikoden as a whole, at least in the context of RPGs, is underrated. Just by merit of the fact that it's good and people don't realize that, it becomes underrated.

Still, looking back, it's hard. Suikoden had a solid plot and great character development, but weak gameplay (it's an RPG after all) and floundering graphics (very bright, not very original). Suikoden II upped the graphics, brought more to the gameplay (more rune slots made party battles a more strategic endeavour, the war battles actually required thought instead of ninjas), improved the graphics, and if that wasn't enough, had a better plot and better characters as a whole.

This is where it begins to get stale. Final Fantasy may have taken six tries to "perfect" the RPG method, against Suikoden's two attempts, but Final Fantasy hasn't taken any steps backward since, at least in the eyes of the masses. Personally, FFX does nothing for me, and FFXII looks to be nothing spectacular, but put "Final Fantasy" on something and watch 13 year old boys shell out $70 to prance around as effeminate boyish-heroes and save the world from generic bad guys from another planet or dimension, or whatever. Popular opinion has it that VII roxxorz the collective boxxorz of the RPGing community, and the series has steadily improved, or at least not lost any ground. Suikoden III was a noticable step backwards from Suikoden II. The plot was good but short lived, and lost the feeling of "epicness" S2 offered, maybe by removing the free-wandering world map, maybe by only offering three distinct regions to explore, maybe by only offering a handful of real towns to visit. More likely by taking one dood and making him "the bad guy"- regardless of how fleshed out a villain Luc was, or how questionable his "villainy" was, he was inevetably the antagonist in S3's main scenario. Anyway, in S3 the grandioscity of the plot suffered, and in the end despite the game being decent, it failed to meet the standards previously set by the series. For this reason I believe Suikoden III is accurately rated. Most critics will acknowledge that the game is pretty good, but doesn't quite see eye-to-eye with it's predecessors or other modern titles.

Suikoden IV I needn't even mention, really. S4 has made a number of established Suikoden fans (myself included) doubt the momentum of the series. A sequel (prequel, whatever) should definetly not disinterest the fanbase. For this reason I agree with Axis. Suikoden IV was straight up mediocre. Worth stumbling through once, just for closure's sake, but in my opinion, not worth the new game+.

Basically,
Suikoden - underrated
Suikoden II - underrated
Suikoden III- rated
Suikoden IV- ehn.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Popular opinion has it that VII roxxorz the collective boxxorz of the RPGing community, and the series has steadily improved, or at least not lost any ground


I would have to disagree here. I loved FFVII, but I think the series lost a LOT with FF8. I hated 8 with a passion. The series gained some back with 9 and stayed roughly level with 10, but 8 almost killed the whole series for me.

Anyway, back to Suikoden.

I can't really add anything to the discussion of 1 and 2 since pretty much everybody feels the same way I do about them. As for III, I thought it was terrible at first, but I have warmed up to it a lot since my initial playthrough. Gameplay was a mess, skills made most runes completely unnecessary, and although I liked the Trinity Sight System immesnely, the lack of a clear protagonist left me wanting. The Fire Bringer seemed to be a contrived Rainbow Coalition to me. I didn't really like Grassland or Zexen too much, and you can't really base a game around Geddoe and his team. I may be alone on this, but Thomas and his group made the game for me. I would have loved to see the whole game be the story of Thomas and friends vs the Zexen Council. Cecile and Thomas have become two of my favorite characters EVER.

IV was treading water. The hero was flat, I have a hard time understanding people's motivations, and, to be perfectly honest, I didn't dislike the villains too much. Other than nuking Illuya, which I admit is pretty heinous, Kooluk and even Cray don't actually do much evil stuff. Kooluk conquering nations didn't really bother me and even most of Cray's bad deeds are in the backstory. I actually forgot about the Kooluk completely for a while.

1 and 2 - underrated
3 - on the mark
4 - abstain

For me, the legacy of S1, S2, Thomas and Cecile will carry me through the bad games as well as the good ones. I don't give up on things and Suikoden is no exception.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm one of those who really doesn't go too much against graphics and the surface things unless they're just out-right annoying. And, I'm a true RPG fan-boy. With that said...

Suikoden I - I think it's under-rated as a whole, since not many people have actually played it. And, from those who have, it splits between the differing opinions of how RPGs should be, of late. However, to me, it's a great game in its own right and all the better for the classic feel and all. Also, I liked the gameplay in it. It's a classical RPG with a few innovations, as such, it's phenomenal for its purpose.

Suikoden II - Unless you're talking about the people who are going to insult it because of the general praise, it's about even with what a lot of hardcore RPG players feel and say. Again, though, the general audience is out of the loop with a lot of RPGs, especially the older ones. But, on its assets and weaknesses, it sticks with the first greatly, basically only adding improvements - with the arguability of the tactical system, which is basically a matter of preference - and growth. However, there is a definite fault in its glitchiness. Again, a phenomenal game, per se.

Suikoden III - Severely under-rated. The game's plot is phenomenal, and it really went with attempts to grow and innovate certain things. And, for the most part, it worked. It's just that it didn't get entirely where it needs to go. However, for the changes, they were done quite nicely for doing introduced. The problems with it are that it made you go to the same places all the time and it felt drawn out and boring, to many. However, the Suikoden series with its traditions has ways to eliminate the basic boredom, though the traveling thing is still annoying. They should have given you Viki and the mirror a lot earlier, along with other things. However, weaknesses aside, it still has great strengths, and its alternate paths could perhaps give it a good re-playability beyond the weaknesses.

Suikoden IV - The most under-rated, if only for the hatred. It's really not that bad of a game. Basically, all that would need to be done to bring it up to a basic level for most, should be to fix the sailing system so it doesn't take forever. True, the plot and characters aren't all up to the level of the others, but, still not all that bad at all. And, certain ones are quite nice. It doesn't deserve all the flak it's taken. It doesn't deserve the sailing, either, though. Or that stupid repetition when stranded on the island. But, still a good game, at least.

The series, thus far, overall - A great series. Like many of the games, under-rated by the general audience, but the series is usually given at least decent props by many of the RPG gamers. Perhaps still a little under-rated by them, though, but certainy better than others.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

First of all, I think the whole concept of "overrated" and "underrated" is inane, and should probably leave video game discussion altogether. However, it does create some interesting questions about the quality of games in general and for that reason I shall participate in this discussion, though I believe the general idea to be, for lack of a better word, stupid.

RPGs in general are coveted by several million to be a good genre if the correct game is made and marketed correspondingly correctly. It all depends on what demographic the game is pedaled to, and in the case of Suikoden it's typically to the ones who picked up Final Fantasy and Adventure Games. (which seem to be the favored genre of most Final Fantasy gamers) This is probably why Suikoden changed it's prior conventions, to appeal to a different audience. The trouble with doing that is, you turn off some of your older fans.

This was the case for Final Fantasy VIII and XI, I think. And also the case for Suikoden III, being as it turned me off to the series, losing some of the magic the original games had, but gaining a different demographic, namely a new generation of gamers. It appeared as though that experiment didn't go quite as well as they had planned, which explains why IV seems to mirror the original games rather than III.

As for the series itself being under or overrated, I believe that they're all different games and hence, must be rated individually. My preference says this...

Suikoden I - Underrated
Suikoden II - Underrated
Suikoden III - Overrated
Suikoden IV - Underrated
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I just wish and only hope Suikoden was just as well known as Final Fantasy is, it may not been around as long, but the story is just as great in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

compared to other rpg's(ff & xenosaga) i think suikoden is underrated. i have always thought suikoden was better than other rpg's but all i heard everyone talking about was ff. yes ff and other games have better graphics but when it comes to story and gameplay suikoden is by far the better rpg.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My opinion is as follows:

Suikoden - underrated: It was a great rpg when there weren't many to compare on playstation. I don't think it got the credit it deserved. One of my favorites.

Suikoden 2 - even: It got pretty good reviews and most people around gaming boards who have played it agree that it was a good game. Personally this is my #1 game out of everything so i am a little biased. I do believe it has gotten the appropriate "hype" though and i am happy with casual opinion.

Suikoden 3 - overrated: I don't think suikoden 3 really ever did it for me. At least not as much as it did for other people. I thought it was a good game and i really enjoyed it, but i just thought it could have been better in a number of ways. I know this is some people's favorite and they would never say it is overrated, but i just don't agree

Suikoden 4 - underrated: Sure this game could have used a lot of improvements gameplay wise, but i actually really enjoyed the story. I think it has taken too much flack for what it lacked and not enough time has been spent looking at it's positives. I liked the story, the multitude of fighting characters, and especially the major battles. This is not all i liked, but i think these things are important

Well that is what i think about this matter. Take it for what you will.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The term "Over-rated" is thrown around by people who disagree with the general popular belief that a game is good. If the majority of people think a game is great, then chances are its great. One of the most common lines I read on RPG forums is "FFVII is over-rated". A game is only as good as its success and following. If FFVII has all those 'fanboys" that means the game is successful , has a plot people like and is generally well loved. If a game like Guardian's Crusade had the following FFVII deos, then the term over-rated would mean something. Any time someone dislikes a game thats popular, they toss in the word Over-Rated. I have yet to play a game that is over-rated. All the games I have played that have a large following I feel is deservant of their following.

The same cannot be said of the inverse. There are many games that are under-rated, simply because of the lack of knowledge and availability of the game. A great example would be the afforementioned Tales Of series. The game has a huge cult following but the mainstream teenager who knows little of the RPGs that aren't mainstream (like FF, Xenosaga and such) has no idea what they are. When I first played Suikoden I and II, this series fell into that category. my friends would come over and see me playing Suikoden I and ask what game it was, and they heard some Japanese sounding thing and immediately became disinterested because it was not 'American Sounding' (But the hipocrates went home to play Pokémon..). At first, the series was under-rated.

Suikoden I is still under rated I feel, It has a good following and many fans, especially here. But you will be surprised the number of people who thought that III was the first one here in the states. Suikoden I set the tone for the series and was brilliant. The comprison was made earlier in the thread to say that Suikoden II was the FFVII of the Suikoden Series so far. I believe that to be true, and that Suikoden I is the FFVI. FFVI set up a system that was reworked slightly and made better in VII (Espers to Materia for magic) Suikoden did the same. It set up II for greatness. The major difference in my analogy is that FFVI is by far not under-rated. Its quite popular and beloved by all RPG players, Suikoden I still falls below radar.

Suikoden II is said to be the FFVII of the series, and like I said above, I agree thus far. However, Suikoden II has emerged as the Chrono Trigger of the Series as well. The game wasn't as popular as hoped when it first came out, but once the word got out on how great it was, the fanbases size snowballed. Like Chrono Trigger, Suikoden II is very hard to get a hold of. Not counting the Chrono Trigger ported to the PS1 on Final Fantasy Chronicles (I believe, i don't feel like going to the other room and checking), Chrono Trigger is the hardest game to find for the SNES (FFII, FFIII and SoM come close), and Suikoden II has now become a collector's gem because they too are getting harder and harder to find. The game itself has become a legend. In my experiences Suikoden II is one of the games used to differentiate between Hardcore RPG player and RPG fanboy. "If you haven't played Suikoden II, Lunar or Tales of Destiny then you haven't submerged yourself into the greatness of RPGs. If you have only played the mainstream Final Fantasy series, Xenosaga, Breath of Fire etc etc. Then you aren't a true hardcore RPG player." Is the common train of thought to differentiate those who are devoted or not. Whether or not you believe this is up to you, but this is how many people define someone as an RPG gamer. Suikoden II is not under-rated, anymore.

Suikoden III is a great game and I feel that even within its own fan base, its under rated because it suffers from Post Greatness Syndrome (PGS). The problem with a series is that once it has a game that peaks its greatness like FFVII, Suikoden II and BoF III, any sequels that follow, no matter how great, are expected to live up to that prior greatness. Games like FFIX, Suikoden III and BoF IV all suffer from PGS. (FFVIII suffered from RBGS, Really Bad Game Syndrome. I liked FFVIII but I acknowledge the game sucked. I just get sick of the people who stop playing before Disc 1 ends and proclaim it as the worst FF ever) Suikoden III, on its own was a fantastic game. The updated graphics was done beautifully and I wish more games used that style of animation for their games. The story line was VERY well done. It catered to both the older audience who played the first two, and the new who was picking III up as their first Suikoden game. Those whom played the first were ympathetic to the bad guy, which was new to the series, and to most RPGs. Rarely do you know the main bad guy as well as we knew Luc. This game had a myriad of characters who you could easily get attached to, like Geddoe's entire squad, Hugo, Sgt. Joe and Lilly, Chris and her knights. And as Wataru pointed out above, you can easily fall in love with the lesser characters like Thomas and Cecile, along with the other Budehuc crowd. In the prior Suikodens you only had a small handful of characters to attach yourself to, (II as an example had Riou, Nanami, Flik, Viktor.. other than that there were few forced members, Kahn once, Jowy to some extent.) I felt like I was more a part of Suikoden III's story, than just watching it from a Hero's vantage point. Anyhow, I feel Suikoden III is under rated.

I haven't played Suikoden IV enough to give an honest synopsis. But from what I gather, its a huge let down. Usually when i read that its an incentive for me to play the game and decide on my own, but from what I have played, i'm in agreeance. Its rated just fine. Bad. To add to the trend of Suikoden to Final fantasy comparison, I'd place Suikoden IV at the level of Final Fantasy IV. It was good in its own right, but doesn't measure up in greatness to the others in the series. Many like it still however.

My, this reply got confusing and long.. fast. I hope I explained everything I felt well enough. As far as what I think the series is going to do, I sincerely hope it rebounds back from IV and V or Rhapsodia turns out to be absolutely majestic. It would take a considerable amount of faliures to turn me off from the Suikoden series, so I'm in this for the long haul.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well I agree with RedCydranth on the Suikoden I front, people view it as the worst Suikoden, the character portraits the strategy battles...

Well it was the introduction it was the milestone the set for what was to come...

The Post Greatness Syndrome or PGS as RedCydranth put it exists unfortunately, but I believe that it can be surpassed at some point, I just can't let my self believe that a Final Fantasy won't come one day that surpasses VII.

So Suikoden I is underrated in any way you see it, fans generally think less of it, the only reason PS1 users got it back then was because there was no other RPG's (I speak for Europe) and it was completely forgotten by the time Final Fantasy VII came out, but most importantly it was underrated from Konami, all Suikoden's were on a world level except IV ironically.

Now Suikoden II is considered the best Suikoden game, for many of us here is our favorite game in general, it is not overrated or underrated, it gets what it deserves a true cult hit, even when it comes to the mainstream RPG players and gamers now it has that sort of legendary status that games like Valkyrie Profile have, but when it came out it was underrated by Konami and by the mainstream and when it got rare and 100 bucks a copy then suddenly everyone realized that it was a good game.

I didn't have the honor to play Suikoden III yet Konami's most underrated Suikoden, they underestimated this game so much that they didn't release it in Europe when games like Legaia 2 and Wild Arms III were making their rounds, they really blew it with this one judging from all the people that imported it they lost a lot of money from second hands.

In the fans department is overrated, because many of you are here because of III, because it was 3D it was good and the original games didn't deserve your attention, of course after playing III you appreciated the rest but is considered better and worst than it is depending where you stand as a fan, if III was your introduction then I'm guessing is overrated, if you played the other two game before then underrated.
For the US mainstream press it got mixed reviews, and Edge Magazine game it the disappointing six review mark, so in that respect it walks between the line of overrated and underrated.

Suikoden IV was Konami's new marketing baby, the finally gave the series the proper attention but they choose the wrong game to do so, shallow, flawed, a miss among the fans, the RPG community, I heard people labeling it the worst RPG even the press didn't like it at all, a four from Edge Magazine and a note at a series decline, what can I say, though not as bad as some make it I liked certain things about it and is not as bad as is considered but still deserves the black sheep of the family mark since is lacking compared to the rest.

As RedCydranth said it will take more than one failed game to make me abandon the series, to be honest even if each game that comes out from now on turns bad I will still have faith, I hope Rhapsodia redeems Suikoden IV.
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