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Five Great Imperial Generals
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Which imperial general do you like best? Why?
Kwanda Rossman--for his Burning Mirror
4%
 4%  [ 5 ]
Kwanda Rossman--for his sense of killing the elves
5%
 5%  [ 6 ]
Millich Oppenheimer--for his Poisonous Flowers
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Millich Oppenheimer--for his sense of romantics
9%
 9%  [ 10 ]
Teo McDohl--for his loyalty to the emperor
25%
 25%  [ 27 ]
Teo McDohl--for his resistance even against his son
8%
 8%  [ 9 ]
Kasim Hazel--for his skill in combat and sword
8%
 8%  [ 9 ]
Kasim Hazel--for his achievement among the generals
2%
 2%  [ 3 ]
Sonya Schulen--for her love to Teo McDohl
4%
 4%  [ 5 ]
Sonya Schulen--for her beauty and charisma
21%
 21%  [ 23 ]
I do not like any general of the SME since I vow my loyalty to the LAT
8%
 8%  [ 9 ]
No opinion
0%
 0%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 107

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Augustus Silverberg




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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:11 am    Post subject: Five Great Imperial Generals Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Scarlet Moon Empire (SME) is very properous under the rule of Emperor Barbarossa ephemerally then destroyed by the Liberation Army. Even with the help of the five great generals, the corrupting empire cannot prevent itself from being conquered.

Kwanda Rossman, appointed as great fifth-rank general, is the weakest of the five. He is only the least popular: a little was told about him during the Succession War. He, according to my observation, has a little sense of strategy in using the Burning Mirror to kill all the elves but never predicts the consequences it can lead to. Actually the Burning Mirror was used by the genius strategist Archimedes in our world to destroy Roman fleet more than two thousand years ago. He demonstrates his weakness in military strategy by doing so since the strategy destroys some part of the SME (in history, it destroys the enemies) while the maxim of Sun Tsu say that "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regimen t, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them."

Eventually, Kwanda Rossman was recruited into the Liberation Army of Toran (LAT) and then appointed one of the six great generals of the Toran Republics(TP).

Millich Oppenheimer, in the other hand, is the opposite of Kwanda Rossman. He plans in advance an abduction to capture Dr. Liukan in Soniere Prison since he already foresees that the LAT will be using the doctor against him. His poisonous flowers are quite charming and romantic. Never in his did a man use flowers to battle against enemies.

Millich Oppenheimer later spends the rest of his life guarding Barbarossa and Windy's imperial graveyard even though he cannot find their dead bodies.

Teo McDohl, father of the hero in Suikoden I, exhibits the true concept of imperial loyalty: a will to lose everything for the emperor, even his own life or the possibility of he killing his own son. Having an army made up of heavy calvaries and knights, his army maybe, as my opinion suggests, the mighties among all the others in the empire, if you do not count the strength depending on numbers. Teo is truly a paradigm of absolute loyalty ever exists in Suiko written history.

He, as you know, dies in the battle against Tir, his own son, without any regrets; he is satisfied that he has done his very best for the emperor and that his son's achievement surpasses his. He rests in peace within the embrace of his lovely son.

The next general is Kasim Hazel who defends one of the most important fortresses of the SME : Moravia. Well, even though he experiences a lot about tactics and strategy through many years of being a great imperial general, he can never think of the plot that Mathiu uses against him. Those of you who play the game know about the great machinations of Mathiu during the assault of Moravia so I think re-accounting it is just a waste of time. Anyway, Kasim Hazel is famous of his strength and skills that no other generals of SME can compete against.

He then, after the Gate Rune War, defends the Northern Borders and gets appointed as one of the Six Great Generals of the TP.

Finally, my most favorite imperial general, Sonya Schulen, commands her large navy army to defend the last fortress Shasarazade. She vows to avenge Tir McDohl for he has killed her lover. She has excellent military skills as being the greatest navy commander of the SME like her mother. No matter how brilliant she is in defending Shasarazade, the fortress will still be conquered by the LAT under Tir McDohl. She then surrenders to the LAT only with the intention of seeing Tir dies when he confronts the emperor. That reveals to us that she still trusts the emperor and is loyal to him and the empire.

Although she cannot defeat the pirates, I still consider her as the greatest imperial general since she strictly adheres to orders--that is a very good concept of the art of war that every general should remember. If the LAT did not have Mathiu Silverberg as their strategist, they would not be able to defeat Shasarazade protected by Sonya.


Ok, at the end of the war, she still holds high position in navy armies of the republics. She is also one of the great six generals.

Time has come. Destiny and Fate have decided that the SME should exist no longer under the blind love of emperor Barbarossa. Even the Five Great Imperial Generals can do nothing to prevent the annihilation. Too bad...!

If I was able to be the emperor's army strategist I would certainly use all parts of my genius mind to help defeating the LAT. I, Augustus Silverberg, show empathy to the emperor since he is not by nature a malevolent emperor: he lets our hero run away during the hero's assault to the castle earlier. Leon Silverberg, my uncle. should re-take side with him and advise him for changes that should be made. But anyway, my uncle is so obsessed with his fierce idealism that he would not spend his valuable time to help a collapsing empire since it would cost a lot of human lives. What would happen if he changed his maxim and worked for the empire?

Edit/Update:

Nicely done, Bugg. Brilliant point. Should you become a strategist, enemies would have no clue on what to do against your mighty army.

I do not take thing personally, and please understand that I am Augustus from the famous Silverberg family. Thus, I love to discuss about events or facts concerning strategy and tactic. I have been spending 9 years studying strategy. Sun Tzu is one of my favorite strategist. I have learned much from him.

Kwanda Rossman has no foresight of the consequences, as I mentioned earlier. Regardless the fact that he uses the dwarves to destroy the elves, his move is quite inadequate. If he confronted with an average strategist, he would probably won easily without losing loads of soldiers of the SME. That is also a maxim of my great uncle. However, in the story, he encounters a military genius who already knows him and his strategy by heart since the Succession War. His weakness is here for Mathiu to defeat.

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Last edited by Augustus Silverberg on Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:27 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Daniel Blackhand

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's hard to put the moniker of greatest of the generals due to all of the arguments you could make. So here are my arguments in favor of Teo McDohl being the greatest of the six.

First of all he commands a great deal of respect from his retainers and followers who would go anywhere and do anything for him. His followers also have a good amount of power and skill such as: Alen, Grenseal, Pahn, Cleo, and Gremio.

Second he has command of a great military mind and the fire spears at his disposal.

Third he is vastly loyal to Barbarosa and the Scarlet Moon Empire. He proves this by dueling his own son towards the goal of winning the war.

And fourth he is a smart general in the fact that after he loses to Tir in a deal he realizes that the Empire will more than likely fall he asks his to Leiutenants Alen and Grenseal to help Tir so that when the change happens the people will not suffer and things will go more smoothly.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Kwanda Rossman, appointed as great fifth-rank general, is the weakest of the five. He is only the least popular: nothing was told about him during the Succession War. He, according to my observation, has a little sense of strategy in using the Burning Mirror to kill all the elves but never predicts the consequences it can lead to. Actually the Burning Mirror was used by a genius strategist in our world to destroy Greek fleet two thousand years ago. He demonstrates his weakness in military strategy by doing so.

First of all, I doubt that Kwanda Rossman was the weakest of the five. For one he had that iron helmet thingy and was nicknamed as Iron Wall Rossman for how he protected Barbarossa Rugner numerous times during the Succession War. So he was definitely not weak at all in my opinion.

And I don't think using the Burning Mirror proved him of lacking strategy at all. If you could burn all of them by using one shot, why not do it? Also, it was a good strategy as well to steal Burning Mirror from the Dwarves' vault, so that it would cause friction even more between the dwarves and the elves, and probably with the kobolds as well. To me, that was tactically good. Not to mention that the fact that he protected Barbarossa during Succession War proved that he did have the sense of strategy because to defend and protect is as strategy demanding as to attack and destroy.

Quote:
No matter how brilliant she is in defending Shasarazade, the fortress will still be conquered by the LAT under Teo McDohl. She then surrenders to the LAT only with the intention of seeing Teo dies when he confronts the emperor.

I think you meant Tir McDohl (the son) in both cases rather than Teo McDohl (the father).

Going back to the original question of who is my favorite out of the five Great Generals, I would have to choose Millich Oppenheimer. The reason is simple, he has a good fashion sense, and he was brilliant in using the "I'll lock this door and let this plant monster thingy to eat all of you while I run away, hee hee hee" tactic. Not to mention a beautiful house as well with the as beautiful garden to match it. Simply wonderful.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Topic creator: You REALLY like the SME, don`t you? :)

Hmm..hard choice. I voted for Sonya because of her chrisma and beauty, but I also like Teo a lot. His death is one of the most touching scenes in the series IMHO. But Kwanda is the one I`ve used the most in my party, since you get him farily early on, and he`s a melee fighter who can attack from the back row.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gwendal, I would risk my life for the resurrection of "L'empire de la Lune Ecarlate".
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bugg, Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regimen t, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them."

Kwanda Rossman cannot understand the conception of using the enemies instead of destroying them. If you played Suikoden II, you should notice that Leon Silverberg uses his strategy skills in order to destroy the Highland Kingdom from the inside, utilising the enemy forces also (but actually he is invited by Jowy to end the war as soon as possilbe and bring victory to the kingdom). Thus, the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plan.

I would appreciate if you could debate me on this fact from Sun Tzu.
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Bugg, Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good.

I agree partially, but keep in mind that the country was SME and Kwanda worked for SME. So he didn't destroy or shatter the enemy's country at all. He simply destroyed the "enemies" (kobolds, elves, and dwarves). Also, the act of the cruelty was caused by him being controlled by the Black Rune and not his own cruel intention or characteristic.

Quote:
So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regimen t, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them."

And we all saw what happened to Solon Jhee's unit for trying to take over N.Window by using ex-Jowston soldiers. To capture the enemy would only be useful if you could be certain that they would be under your control and to make sure that they have some use for you. For you to capture the enemy without having the control or them to have no use for you would be a bad move in my opinion.

And honestly, I doubt that they could control the three races. The elves looked down on humans, they wouldn't surrender, they'd rather die than to be under humans' control. The dwarves were so proud of their brain and technology, it would be an insult for them to be under humans' control. While I'm not sure how the kobolds would react, they seem to be hostile enough toward humans from what we saw in Suikoden I.

So it would be more efficient to get rid of the enemies rather than capturing them. For they had no use whatsoever to SME/Kwanda.

Quote:
Kwanda Rossman cannot understand the conception of using the enemies instead of destroying them.

Again, Solon Jhee lost due to "using the enemies instead of destroying them". And that what cost him his head (very good hairdo though, it's really a shame to have him killed like that, I miss that hair).

Quote:
If you played Suikoden II, you should notice that Leon Silverberg uses his strategy skills in order to destroy the Highland Kingdom from the inside

Actually, that's wrong. He used his strategy to get rid of Luca Blight because that's what Jowy wanted to do. That didn't really "use the enemy" because in that particular case, the "enemy" and the "employer" (Jowy) had the same intention of getting rid of Luca Blight from the Highland. So it was only natural that they worked together to achieve the same goal.

After that same goal being achieved, the plan was definitely to get rid of Riou by killing him in Jowston Hill (remember the fake peace treaty offer?). So in a sense, Leon Silverberg also planned to "get rid of the enemy". If that goes against your Sun Tzu way of thinking, then you'd consider your "uncle" (refer to your last paragraph in your first post) to not able to understand the conception of using the enemies instead of destroying them either, just like Kwanda Rossman.

Quote:
utilising the enemy forces also

Which what in some ways Kwanda was trying to do as well. He tried to blame the dwarves instead. It was just a coincidence that the vault was able to be penetrated by Tir as well, so the dwarves believed that their vault was penetrable by humans. Had that not happened, Kwanda might end up seeing the elves and dwarves killing each other without having to waste SME soldiers at all.

Quote:
I would appreciate if you could debate me on this fact from Sun Tzu.

I think I did quite alright there. One thing I must emphasize is please do not take things personally, okay? It's strictly a pure debate, and not anything personal at all. I'd hate it if people take things personally when it wasn't intended to be like that.

EDIT: Oh before I forgot, please try no to double post next time. There is an "EDIT" button on the upper right of your post that would allow you to edit your post instead of double posting.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Five Great Imperial Generals Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Augustus Silverberg wrote:

Kwanda Rossman, appointed as great fifth-rank general, is the weakest of the five. He is only the least popular: nothing was told about him during the Succession War.

Actually, a lot is told about him during the Succession war. First of all, he was in charge of Pannu Yakuta during the onset of the war, and provided Barbarossa a safe haven when Barbarossa had no where to go due to the rebellion happening during his trip to the Kunan Region. He also protected Barbarossa from an ambush involving archers. He stood in front of Barbarossa and shielded him from the arrows--his thick armor was inpenetrable. That is why he is called "Iron Wall Rossman."

Quote:

He, according to my observation, has a little sense of strategy in using the Burning Mirror to kill all the elves but never predicts the consequences it can lead to.

He was under the control of Windy, she his actions during that time won't have much to do with his own knowledge of strategy.

Quote:
Actually the Burning Mirror was used by a genius strategist in our world to destroy Greek fleet two thousand years ago. He demonstrates his weakness in military strategy by doing so.

I assume you are talking about Archimedes. He defeated the Roman fleet actually, because Archimedes was himself Greek. Also, this took place more than 2000 years ago, so check your facts. Also, how does this show Kwanda's strategy is weak? It has nothing to do with it.

Quote:

Finally, my most favorite imperial general, Sonya Schulen, commands her large navy army to defend the last fortress Shasarazade. She vows to avenge Tir McDohl for he has killed her lover. She has excellent military skills as being the greatest navy commander of the SME like her mother. No matter how brilliant she is in defending Shasarazade, the fortress will still be conquered by the LAT under Teo McDohl. She then surrenders to the LAT only with the intention of seeing Teo dies when he confronts the emperor. That reveals to us that she still trusts the emperor and is loyal to him and the empire.

So how exactly is Sonya great, when the only fact you present is her defeat by the hands of "Teo McDohl" (I assume you mean Tir).
The fact is, she had her hands full dealing with Lake Pirates. Because of that she was unable to user her navy to support the other regions or directly attack the rebel's headquarters (for example, while they were gone, fighting in Moravia). I don't see any "excellent military skill" in her if she can not defeat pirates.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My fav. is sonya because She's a great character to use in battle. but for the reasons stated above, I had to go with milich. I liked him for his romantics more than any reason you had stated for sonya. the title of the topic kinda limits it. I mean, sonyas my fav. but not for those reasons, you shoulda just had their names, but hey, props for creativity.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Gwendal, I would risk my life for the resurrection of "L'empire de la Lune Ecarlate".



You are quixotic. You certainly know that the old empire is dead and you only have 3% of chance to revive it. Wonder why I say 3 %? Because there are only three factions that might help reviving the empire:

First--Emperor Barbarossa has successor.

Second--Windy is able to prevent Leeknat from helping the TP.

Third--Chaos appears under the malevolent rule of Lempant.

Calculation the chances of success is vital to strategy. You should not risk your life anyway since by doing so, you are like Shu, a strategist relying too much on dumb luck.

Anyway, you are, according to my opinion, potentially good strategist. You know a lot about the Art of War by Sun Tzu.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How strange to see the same person (under a different name) complementing the other one.

By the way, Sun Tzu's strategy is not the end-all, best of the best strategy in the world. His strategy is geared towards nations that have a powerful military, such as the one he served--the king of Wu back in the 6th century b.c.e. His strategy becomes practically useless if you have a force that is less than the enemy. Furthermore, his strategy is completely focused on macromanagement, and gives little or no detail on the minute details of how to manage one's troops.

Sun Pin, who came a century after Sun Tzu has left a better strategic manual, in my opinion. His was only discovered in 1972, and is not very well known. However, he speaks more on how to defeat enemies when you have a smaller force--it speaks more aboy psychology of warfare, and would be practical for most situations.

Sun Tzu isn't meant to be taken word-for-word anyways. It is merely a set of philosophies on how one may lead an army. Following it dogmatically would lead to disasterous consequences, such as how Zhuge Liang's student, Ma Su, ended up losing dismally to his enemies when he took Sun Tzu's words literally. He set up campt at the top of a hill, based on the knowledge that, "charging down from the top of the hill would create a momentum unstoppable by enemies." The enemies, simply encricled the hill and waited until Ma Su's supplies run out.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Let me show you how excellent Sun Tzu's philosophy is.

Sun Tzu , name used by the unknown Chinese authors of the sophisticated treatise on philosophy, logistics, espionage, and strategy and tactics known as The Art of War. It includes many commentaries by later Chinese philosophers. The core text was probably written by one person during a time of expanding feudal conflicts, but the exact century is uncertain. Most authorities now support a date early in the Warring States period. This work has deeply influenced Chinese, Vietnamese, and Japanese military thinking and has enjoyed growing popularity among businessmen. It stresses the unpredictability of battle, the importance of deception and surprise, the close relationship between politics and military policy, and the high costs of war. The futility of seeking hard and fast rules and the subtle paradoxes of success are major themes. The best battle, Sun Tzu says, is the battle that is won without being fought.

Perhaps Ma Su did not read chapter VIII: Variation in Tactics. That is probably the reason why he lost in the battle you mentioned. Zhuge Liang did not even trust that person since Ma Su could not apply deeply the Art of War, yet he always showed off.

Confucius once said:" Show-off always show up in showdown."
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sun Tsu is simply the name given to Sun Wu, a strategist who was emplyed by the king of Wu in the early days of the Warring States period. "Tsu" in Chinese is attached to the end of a person's family name to denote respect, much likc Confucius (which is a Latin name attributed by jesuit missionary Ignatius de Loyola), who is known as Kong Tsu.

You're probably reading an annotated version of Sun Tsu, which is different from the original. Even Zhuge Liang wrote his own annotated version, known as the "Strategies of Zhuge Liang."

And Zhuge Liang did trust Ma Su greatly. Liu Bei even cautioned Zhuge Liang that he was playing favorites too much. This shows that even Zhuge Liang is not a good judge of character.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oops, you are right! That was my fault to say Zhuge Liang did not trust Ma Su. However, how come a genius strategist made a dead wrong mistake like the one...? Anyway, Zhuge Liang was an excellent politician, thinker and strategist in the period of the Three Kingdoms.

Let me just have a little bit space to extol Zhuge Liang.

"His Excellency's shrine, where would it be found?"
"Past Damask Town, where cypresses grow dense."
Its sunlit court, gem-bright greens--a spring unto themselves.
Leaf-veiled, the orioles-sweet notes to empty air.
Thrice to him Liu Pei sued, keen to rule the realm:
Two reigns Kongming served--steady old heart--
To die, his host afield, the victory herald yet to come-
Weep, 0 heroes! Drench your fronts, now and evermore.


Zhuge's mighty name hangs proudly on the upper sphere;
Stern and grand, the royal liege man's likeness claims respect.
In the tri-part world below he spun deep schemes.
In the age-old realm of cloud, one single plume unites our gaze.
Who rank his peers? Yi Yin and Jiang Ziya;
In command he was more sure than Xiao or Cao.
But the stars had turned; he could not save Han's reign,
Toiling to the end, body broken, will unbroken.

About Liu Bei, he is not even a good thinker even though he was right about Ma Su (was it Ma Su or Youchang?). Liu Bei, stunned by the death of his brother (not biologically), vowed to destroy Wu of the East to take revenge. But Zhuge Liang said: "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Augustus Silverberg, I think you're really missing the whole point of not taking what strategists said literally. For you to keep on quoting things from Zhuge Liang, Sun Tzu or whoever really only showed that you are still taking things literally.

I'm probably not so knowledgable about Chinese history and its strategists in the past, but I know that a simple guy named Morrie was a fine man. He said that we should never take anything for granted, but yet we do. How correct he was because it's really proven on how you insist on using what the strategists said literally (which means that you take things for granted, probably like how Ma Su lost, by being too dependant on what in the book without caring what situation he faced).

It has been proven that taking things literally could result in defeat (Ma Su's case, Solon Jhee's case, etc). So it was 100% proven that the strategy could be wrong.

And last but not least, the last time I checked, the topic was supposed to be about "Five Great Imperial Generals" and not "Chinese History and its great strategists in the past".

Oh one more thing, do you really need two accounts and act as if you're two different people complimenting or even contradicting (which is ever weirder) each other?
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