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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I forget the exact wording so I'm not going to argue for it being sexist either way but, yes, it's true that Gorudo and Alex Wisemail murdered Lucia's father as they thought Lucia herself would be easier to control and keep down as head of the Kayara Clan.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You know, I think that really, no matter where you go, people are going to assume women are weaker, because the facts are that generally women ARE weaker. They're shorter, emotional, and not as strong.

I'm allowed to say this because I'm female. And I'm not saying it's right. At all. I hate being treated like the weaker sex, but it's just a human mentality. The same way children are almost always protected and defended no matter what. They could be sociopaths, and there would still be people saying, "But they're just a child!"

I'm sure Suikoden is the same way, because they're humans. And while some races might think otherwise, I'm pretty sure the majority of them don't.

Just my two cents.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

John Layfield wrote:
I forget the exact wording so I'm not going to argue for it being sexist either way but, yes, it's true that Gorudo and Alex Wisemail murdered Lucia's father as they thought Lucia herself would be easier to control and keep down as head of the Kayara Clan.


But is that because she is a woman, or that Lucia is relatively inexperienced and can be quite the hot head, and easily manipulated? (Or any combination of those things.) I don't remember the line in question, so, like John, it's hard for me to argue either way. (Though it does not make much sense to me for Teresa's father to feel Lucia uncapable because she is a woman, yet train Teresa to take over for him...Stating the obvious a bit here, but, uhm, Teresa is also a woman. If he felt women were unworthy successors why would he allow Teresa to take over for him when he became ill?) I'll keep an eye out for it next play through though.

It still doesn't contradict that women and men often take on jobs that we traditionally would classify as female or male. No one picks on Gremio or Sebastian for being caretakers for the main part. No one talks about how "unwomanly" it is for Oulan to be a bodyguard. The issue just doesn't come up often, if at all. There does not seem to be anything holding females back from office/positions of power/etc. Women seem to enjoy equal rights as men. Their society seems relatively equal - Neither women nor men are banned from any occupation, religion, or other form of cultural institution that we've seen.

Lady Andrea wrote:
You know, I think that really, no matter where you go, people are going to assume women are weaker, because the facts are that generally women ARE weaker. They're shorter, emotional, and not as strong.

I'm allowed to say this because I'm female. And I'm not saying it's right. At all. I hate being treated like the weaker sex, but it's just a human mentality. The same way children are almost always protected and defended no matter what. They could be sociopaths, and there would still be people saying, "But they're just a child!"

I'm sure Suikoden is the same way, because they're humans. And while some races might think otherwise, I'm pretty sure the majority of them don't.


No offense, but I don't think you can paint every woman with the same brush. Not all women are "shorter" "more emotional" or "not as strong" as all men. (And likewise, not all men are taller, less emotional, and stronger than women. Some are, in both cases. But not all.)

Nor do I think one is allowed to paint a gender with one brush simply because they belong to that gender. I could say "Girls are less intelligent than boys and I can say this because I am a girl." and it wouldn't be true - but more than that, it wouldn't be right; I might be a girl but I'm in no position to speak for every girl and it would be very insulting if I tried to. I might be less intelligent than most boys but I'm sure there are girls out there whose brains run circles around the average male's intelligence. I'm doing a disservice to them if I say that all girls are less intelligent than boys.

I also don't think Suikoden humans are the same creatures as Earth humans. We don't have to deal with definite proof of the supernatural (true runes, vampires, the sword/shield story being definitive religion), several equal races (ducks, kobolds, nay kobolds, vampires, wingers, mermaids, and elves, oh my!), runes, magic, etc. I would think growing up in that environment would be much different than growing up in our own. It would add a set of neurosis and traits that we just don't deal with. Humanity is relative, IMO, to the world in which it inhabits.

I also don't see the point of the children being protected. It is generally useful for a species/family to wish to protect it's young; this is how the species/family/etc survives. But considering that it's a hot issue as to how responsible a child can be for crimes committed right now, I don't see how it "always" happens that a child is left off the hook because of his age. It wouldn't be a hot issue if there wasn't a fairly strong majority/minority who hold a child can recognize his actions and should be held accountable for them, even if the penalty the law requires was meant traditionally for adults.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree with you, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clearer. I was generalizing, but I didn't mean to make it sound like it was fact. I mean, I myself am taller, stronger, and less emotional than your typical girl.

I was trying to make a point about innate human nature. I guess I failed. Would you believe me if I said I was feminist? :P
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lady Andrea wrote:

Would you believe me if I said I was feminist?


Yes, the most pessimistic feminist ever without question!

[early morning rant]
I am quite a fan of the idea that not even the creators of the series really thought about the gender of every character. How trivial is that idea? If I say the word Nurse, 9 times out of 10.. you think female. Now why are you so sexist? You should make video games!

Seriously though, I think looking into the meaning or reasoning behind the gender of characters is just stabbing in the dark until you have something of confirming information. You can quote excellent lines from the game that suggests women MIGHT be suppressed but hey... wasn't Lucia like a teenager (at best) when daddy bit the dust? Maybe they were anti-child too. I mean Gorudo did shoot Nanami right? He didn't have any children himself... (though he may have been pregnant during the events of Suikoden II.) I think I may be on to something here.

I think there is one time in the four games where sex is actually an issue and that is in Alma Kinan. The only time that has been mentioned here was in a silly joke about some guy's obsession with drag queens. Is there a thread where the motives and of the Alma Kinan women have been discussed? Almost seems like fate made Chris a woman for a reason so that a bond could be easier formed and more believable between her and Yun... so that an understanding between cultures could be ultimately reached without an added obstacle. I'm just stabbing here, but it seems to me, that if Konami meant for women to be suppressed in one of the cultures you've seen so far, it would've been more clearly stated instead of quietly hinting at it.

[/early morning rant.]
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think a lot of people are missing the sexist correlations between the Suikoverse and the Universe. The social position of women in various Suikoden societies may not be explicitly oppressive, but the echoes of sexism are inevetable in most, shall we say, "civilized" nations- and that goes for the status of women in our own world as well. In Zexen, it was uncommon that Chris would be the captain of the Zexen knights, for sure. But this may not be because it is technically impossible for a woman to become captain of the knights, by law, but rather simply a social stigma. The common Zexen belief may just have been that the captain of the knights, and the knights as a whole, were men. It was the same in feudal England from which Zexen inspiration is taken. Think of 14th Century England and try to picture a female knight. While maybe not impossible by law, it was just considered silly. Maybe by both men and women. Most Zexen women (besides Alanis, but is she even from Zexen?) show little or no interest in becoming knights. They hold Chris in high regard not because she is lighting the way for women to suddenly become knights in some kind of Zexen suffragette movement, but rather simply because she became a knight, and was the first woman to do it. Just a "good for her" sort of thing.

On the opposite end of the "civilized" scale we have, say, the Grasslanders. The Karayans are hunter/gatherers, whichputs them a little further back on the timeline of human evolution. As a result, the equality in the society is more prevalent. Their cheif is a woman, for crying out loud. Hunter/gatherer societies don't exactly have time to establish a hierarchy, especially when everyday is a matter of making sure everyone has food. It's a society in which everyone depends on everyone else. So, if Aila wants to join the hunt alongside Jimba and Hugo, good for her. As long as she brings back a little CutRabbit meat, nobody cares that she's a girl. This actually surprises Geddoe and his mercs, moreso in the manga than the game. Ace (or was it Joker? I dunno) makes some kind of comment about Aila being a hunter and warrior, and how weird that is (even though Queen was only a stone-throw away o_O), but Aila gets defensive claiming that the social structure of the Karayans allows women and men equal oppurtunity to be domestic (the traditional role of women in hunter/gatherer societies in reality) or hunters (the traditional role of men in reality).

Also, not many people take into account that there may be such unconsidered male/female equality in Suikoden because they have to market this game to a real audience. If the game said on the package "Recruit 108 Stars of Destiny!" and you put 60 hours into the game recruiting 108 men, female gamers would be pretty pissed off. Likewise, if all the characters you can bring into battle were male while all the women kept the inn or flogged the armour, it'd seem pretty glaringly sexist. You could argue that the game wasn't being sexist, but merely reflecting the sexist tendancies of the nation in which the game took place, but that would still be kind of shooting yourself in the foot. By establishing societies in which both men and women can rise to whatever position, and in which there is no stigma in Kasumi or Oulan wanting to whip some ass while Alex makes the beds back at HQ, you can easily market the game to both sexes in reality. By removing social stigmas in the context of the game, it becomes more accesible to female players. It's pretty basic economics to try not to alienate 50% of the population when marketing a product.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

**looks for points to argue**

Krawnik wrote:

It was the same in feudal England from which Zexen inspiration is taken.


I'm at a loss to where you draw the comparisons enough to use the word inspiration. Can you elaborate as to why you think that a nation whose capital looks destinctly Spanish (just to me?) and whose government is ran by a guild can be compared to 14th century England? I can see some comparisons, but nothing that I believe constitutes the assumption that it was inspired by that culture. It seems more to me, that it's a rip off of English, Spanish, and Italian societies and architecture. Mainly, that it's inspired by people who have "seen stuff."

Quote:

Most Zexen women (besides Alanis, but is she even from Zexen?) show little or no interest in becoming knights.


[joke]This is just like saying that Zexen women show little interest in Brad Pitt. I didn't hear any men saying they liked Brad Pitt either. Therefore, they must not like Fight Club.[/joke]

Maybe, in that society, a man is considered brave when he fights for his country and a coward or useless if he cannot or does not. Maybe women don't fight because they aren't afforded this pressure? If that should be so, then why would anyone question the fact that there is but one femknight? That is not suddenly out of the question and at the same time, it doesn't apply that there is discrimination of women, but instead an added inconvenience that the women of the society simply avoid without question. Maybe Ms. Lightfellow (... err Mrs. Fujiwara) was simply a rarity because she took upon herself the struggles that she wasn't predetermined to have by fate and the Y Chromosome. Sure that would still be sexism, but not in the way everyone is assuming. (done fishing)

Quote:

Hunter/gatherer societies don't exactly have time to establish a hierarchy


I am confused as to why you bring up "evolution" here. (I can only assume you mean evolution as in the change in state of mind, or evolution of the civilization and not evolution as in the human species because that just simply doesn't make sense.) Now are you saying that the Zexen Confederacy is more evolved and thus is naturally more sexist? That being a hunter/gatherer means you don't have the need for male dominance?

From the beginning of humans and animals existences alike, there is always a leader of *groups* and it is nearly always male. You're basically saying that the Grasslands are communist and have no time to think about the sex of their leader because they depend on each other? Wouldn't living in a society that exhibits such traits be more evolved than the one you've described in Zexen?

The Grasslands are just as evolved as the Zexens are. They just have certain differences that are easily seen. Having ironworking and stonewalls around your cities doesn't necessarily make you more evolved. It seems to be a better way to live, but to a culture that understands the advancements, like the Grasslands, and still chooses to live the way they live is not a lack of advancement, but a decision of preference.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Krawnik wrote:

It was the same in feudal England from which Zexen inspiration is taken.



I'm at a loss to where you draw the comparisons enough to use the word inspiration. Can you elaborate as to why you think that a nation whose capital looks destinctly Spanish (just to me?) and whose government is ran by a guild can be compared to 14th century England? I can see some comparisons, but nothing that I believe constitutes the assumption that it was inspired by that culture. It seems more to me, that it's a rip off of English, Spanish, and Italian societies and architecture. Mainly, that it's inspired by people who have "seen stuff."


Not to forget the Portuguese and Dutch societies, since they were merchant based societies, just like the Zexen's government
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Argue against me if you legitimately feel you should, not because you want to play Devil's Advocate in order to get soldiers.

I say that England was an inspiration for Zexen referring specidically to the Zexen Knights. Feudal England is the source of inspiration for generic knights, whether the actual society draws inspiration from Portugal and Spain has nothing to do with the argument.

I don't even know what your second argument is.

Yes, I do mean "evolution" as in the evolution of society. I think it's pretty obvious, all political correctness aside, that living in a stone house and wearing armour into battle takes a little more intellectual investment than living in a straw hut. Nowhere did I mention communism, and I doubt your understanding of Communist systems based on your comment.


Edited for content: Be nice
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I also thought Zexen had some sort of English feel myself. I thought that was what it was meant to simulate, but I could be wrong. Be that as it may, but I didn't pick up on any Spanish or Italian elements in Zexen. I honestly don't know too much about Italy, and only some about Spain, but I didn't see any Spanish or Italian aspects there. It seemed pretty English except that it isn't ruled by a king/queen.

And on a minor note, Krawnik, that wasn't very nice. He just wanted a little elabortation. I'm sure is little arguement comment was a joke, not meant seriously.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Krawnik wrote:

Argue against me if you legitimately feel you should, not because you want to play Devil's Advocate in order to get soldiers.


It has absolutely nothing to do with soldiers. It's more of an entertainment thing and me finding a lot of fault in your assessments. Arguing is my thing. I do apologize if you feel you're being attacked because I disagree, but you're just going to have to deal with it.

You stated that Zexen was inspired by Feudal England. You didn't say anything about the knights. Thanks for clearing that up.

Quote:

I don't even know what your second argument is.


My second argument of course is countering your statement that women don't have the opportunities by law. I'm saying that it could very well be their choice. How is that so difficult to understand? I don't remember instances of the women in Zexen complaining about how they didn't want to be knights as you so stated. Are you simply stating that because they didn't complain that they didn't want to be that it wasn't so? You seemed to be assured that what you've stated is the way it is, I was simply fishing for an opposing possibility that would make sense furthering my point that coming to a conclusion is impossible. My belief in the opposition isn't required to point out the possibility of fault.

Quote:

Yes, I do mean "evolution" as in the evolution of society. I think it's pretty obvious, all political correctness aside, that living in a stone house and wearing armour into battle takes a little more intellectual investment than living in a straw hut.


But 'taking more intellectual investment' doesn't necessarily entail that Zexen is a smarter society or that Grasslands is not capable of being an equal on any level. The average intelligence of the Karayan adult seems to be on the level of any Zexen adult. Simply having the preference of moving faster without armor is a personal decision and not an evolutionary setback. You can take the Christian Scientists of today's world who will not accept medical treatment, or the Amish that live without certain things that most people couldn't afford to lose. Those are preferences and not a lack of evolution in their societies. Whether you wish to believe it or not, a choice that separates cultures IS NOT LACK OF EVOLUTION. Perhaps it is as you (incorrectly) stated about my understanding of communism?

I already explained this thoroughly in that post. If you just skimmed through it with a closed mind, check it again. It's really good stuff. I think it's funny you can't argue without being emotionally involved. Relax.. we're just talkin here.

Quote:

Seriously, if you disagree, make your point, but don't go fishing for arguments just to hee haw me off or accumulate soldiers.


Again, you're just viewing an argument/discussion as a fight when it clearly is not. If I question your logic and have reason to, then attacking my reasoning or intelligence is simply irrational on your part. And what the heck are soldiers anyways? I couldn't care less about soldiers. I'm in this forum for discussion and I'm simply doing what I do/enjoy best.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't see anything wrong with his argument, and to accuse him of making things up for soldier gain is just as preposterous as me (or any other member) accusing YOU of making that long statement just to gain soldiers.

Why would you even make a remark like that?! Not only is it completely off-topic, but it's inflammatory, baseless, and serves no purpose.

Anyway, you try to make it sound like we weren't reading your post, but this is what you intially wrote...

Krawnik wrote:
On the opposite end of the "civilized" scale we have, say, the Grasslanders. The Karayans are hunter/gatherers, whichputs them a little further back on the timeline of human evolution. As a result, the equality in the society is more prevalent. Their cheif is a woman, for crying out loud. Hunter/gatherer societies don't exactly have time to establish a hierarchy, especially when everyday is a matter of making sure everyone has food. It's a society in which everyone depends on everyone else. So, if Aila wants to join the hunt alongside Jimba and Hugo, good for her. As long as she brings back a little CutRabbit meat, nobody cares that she's a girl.


Though you might think it clear, when you say "HUMAN evolution" as opposed to "CULTURAL (or SOCIAL) evolution" it's quite easy to make the mistake, that you were implying that the grasslanders were more like neandertals, than the cro-magnon man which dominates the homo sapien genre of recorded human history. I would imagine that no sub-human species exists in Suikoden, and if it DID... It would probably be a monster type, and not part of a nation with which you interact.

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure if not having sexual discrimination implies having a more or a less socially evolved society or not. In fact, I'd say, they were less advanced, but that's neither here nor there.

We're actually talking about HARMONIAN women, and as I said before, I don't think they descriminate based on SEX... But, based on CASTE. As I said, I doubt there is sexual discrimination there, but I suppose (since we don't know a lot about Harmonia) it is possible. However, I somehow don't think that the Harmonians would have a problem with female clergy. I'm not sure if Temple Knights are supposed to be considered clergy or not, but from the "Temple" allusion, it's quite possible. And given that Harmonia is a "Holy Kingdom," being (at the very least) a guardian of the clergy is quite a high position.

Therefore, I'll just repeat what I said before. I don't think that there is any sexism in Harmonia.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I stand by what I said, but I'll apologize for the way in which I said it.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would guesstimate that Harmonian women are somewhat relegated to a lower role, probably something similar to the Ancient Greek society. Women are probably allowed to be active in the religious community, but as far as leadership, they would take a backseat to the males. They also are probably not discriminated against per se in the military, but are not encouraged to serve, like the situation with Chris and the Zexen Army.

But, that's just my guess, and it's probably quite a bit off.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There's not enough information to even guess, but Harmonian females do hold positions of priminence. Lena Suphina being the Vice-Captain of the Temple Guards is one example, but she is also the household head of the Suphina family. Julie Latkje is also the "current" head of the Latkje family (due to Nash going awol). Oulan is a Harmonian, and she's a fist-fighting bodyguard--hardly a reserved female. Their border guards have female members, and they allow females to study traditionally male disciplines such as military tactics (Apple studied military science in Crystal Valley).

We certainly don't know what the "average female" is like in Harmonia because we have only seen Caleria, which seems to be at the outermost fringe of Harmonia to the point of being very different. For that reason, I don't think there is enough info to even guess. The above examples I mention are pretty much extreme cases--not enough to gain a general idea on the whole of Harmonian society, although we can see that certain things are allowed.
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