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Harmonian women
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Scarlet Assassin

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:57 pm    Post subject: Harmonian women Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Due to the divide in Harmonian society, I began asking myself what the role of females in Harmonia is. So I was just ondering if there were any conclusive sources to show the chruch's view on women. Are they inferior to men in the eyes of Harmonia? Are they allowed to become church officials?
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Sai Fujiwara

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lena is a Temple Knight, which is (apparently) a pretty high position in Harmonia society. As for other women, I would imagine it's largely the same as it is in Toran, Jowston, Zexen, etc. The Suiko-nations don't seem to be very sexist, and I would imagine that Harmonia is the same way when it comes to that.

It's kinda' funny how equal men and women seem to be in Suikoden. For example, there is the beforementioned Lena who is a Temple Knight, but there's also Valeria who becomes one of the Toran Republic's six great generals.

If that isn't enough, Annabelle was the mayor of Muse AND the leader of the Jowston City-States. Chris Lightfellow was also captain of the Zexen Knights.

Even in the Grasslands, Sana is the Chief of the Chisha clan, and Lucia is chief of the Karaya Clan. It seems that everywhere in the Suikoden world, women are treated equally, so it's fairly safe to assume that the same thing goes on in Harmonia. On the other hand, we don't know a lot about Harmonia, so I could be mistaken... But, that doesn't change that Lena was allowed to become a Temple Knight, so that's pretty convincing to me.
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Scarlet Assassin

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

THank you very much Sai. (heh, I almost called you Bishop...old habits die hard I guess)
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Krawnik

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Harmonia does have a history of racism, though. Blonde-hair blue-eyes is the norm for the upper-classes, and it's common knowledge that Harmonians use non-human races (like Kobolds) as slaves. So there is a definite discriminatory social hierarchy, whether or not it involves women as being superior or inferior to men is up for grabs.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For some reason I see Harmonian Women as being expected to be modest and conservative by common sense. And if they're not, they loose stature and in Harmonia loosing stature is not something you want to happen. Ever. I could see where a Harmonian husband would silence his wife in public and be looked none the lesser for it but I don't really think there's any federal laws restricting women in particular. I don't have a lot of Harmonian women to base this on though, so this is just my own personal speculations regarding the subject.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Zexen women are also deemed inferior. Chris had a hard time proving herself. And if you haven't noticed, she's really the only female knight. They really get into that in the manga.

I mean, I'm PRETTY sure it was stated in the game. If Zexen women were equal, I don't think they'd have put quite as much emphasis on the fact that Chris was female. Besides, Zexen seemed to me a lot like old England, based on the way people are dressed, their names, etc...
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Acheron

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Besides, Zexen seemed to me a lot like old England, based on the way people are dressed, their names, etc...

I found Zexen to have more of an Italian or Portugeese feel to it more so than English. But you say tomatoe I say tomatoe. We all say tomatoe.

Women appear to have equal rights in all the societies we have yet to see in the Suikoden World. I could list but they seem to have already been mentioned, no need being repeatative.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Everybody's points thus far have been pretty spot-on. We haven't really seen any DISTINCT cases of sexism in the Suikoverse, although Chris being the only (either the ONLY one or the only RANKING one, I haven't read the manga) female Zexen Knight is interesting.

As for Harmonia, since Lena is relatively high up, it stands to reason that women aren't held back from doing anything, or at the very least, Temple Knight is a position open for them. Then again, we need to take the Harmonian caste system into account. It's most probable that First Class Harmonians can basically do whatever they want, regardless of gender, whereas Second Class women may have fewer options open to them, and Third Class women can't do a thing but cook. I just can't see a Third Class Harmonian being allowed in the military, male or female, whereas Second Class Harmonians would probably be allowed to enlist, but not reach special ranks. Guess we'll have to see as the series progresses, huh?

Now, Falena...there's a country I want to see the gender policies in. Hyper-feminist, or just a normal country with a leading Queen instead of King? It should be interesting whichever way it develops.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Zexen women are also deemed inferior. Chris had a hard time proving herself. And if you haven't noticed, she's really the only female knight. They really get into that in the manga.


Well, there must be a simple reason and I think it's rather obvious. If you watch when you're playing Suikoden III, you'll find that most of the women in Vinay Del Zexay and Iksay are huge. Not only would it be difficult for them to have the physical capabilities to be a knight, but finding armor to fit their torsos or funding the cost of new, larger armor would be a daunting task as well.

I do think that her being the only knight adds to her appeal as well. I don't look at her being the only knight as a way to show that women are not on the same level as men in Zexen, but a way to enhance a good character by making her unique in addition to beautiful.

In a way, not just her knighthood, but her beauty, silver hair, slenderness, kindness all make her unique in Zexen do they not? It is, after all, possible that it's one of these characteristics (or absence of such in most) that makes women ill-suited to become knights in the Confederacy and not just the fact that they are indeed women.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

having a queen doesn't necessarily mean matriarchy, but i'm guessing that in this case, you may be right, warden. while there's nothing really specific saying that falena is female dominated, it is hinted at somewhat.

maybe sV will shed some light, if our guesses on location turn out to be correct. i'd like to find out more about them-dispel some of that mystery.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, about Chris...Sgt. Joe was pretty darn surprised when he first saw Chris. "A woman in armor?" I think that Zexen may be a bit sexist, but I don't know. Did you see any female counsil members? Nope, not one.

As for Falena, we'll see later I assume. I'm hoping that when it comes to Falena that we don't have another Menzoberranzan on our hands. That would creep me out. As Syb said, we'll find out later.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

what about alma-kinan? I have a theory that they may be sexist and possibly like black widow spiders, they kill their mates after they mate :? Or even worse, Yumi and Yuiri maybe males in drag after all.... ack!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

what about alma-kinan? I have a theory that they may be sexist and possibly like black widow spiders, they kill their mates after they mate Or even worse, Yumi and Yuiri maybe males in drag after all.... ack!

:| ... I really kind of hope this was a joke. If they were actually drag queens.... I might have just had to kill myself from shear need not to live anymore.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think gender issues play a large part - if any - in the Suikoden world daily life. We really don't see any place - save for the Suikoden III manga, which isn't canon - where women are notable purely for being women. Women are warriors and nobody pays any attention to it. Men are gatherers and nobody pays any attention to that either. Men and women seem to trade off, doing the work that is needed according to the need of it, not according to gender roles. Most of the character roles throughout the series - Warriors, Advisors, Doctors/Nurses (well, nurses, anyway), Merchants, etc. are done by both sexes and without comment on it. Lucia is the leader of the Karayan tribe and a mother but this isn't ever held against her. Gremio is basically a nanny but no one ever comments that his profession is demeaning to him, either. There is no shame for Hans to be a merchant; there is no scorn for Lorelai for being a warrior. (Well, save from Killey. But that's because he dislikes that she wants to use the secrets for the Sindar for her own profit, not because he thinks it's not a woman's place to b an adventurer.) Gender politics don't seem to exist in the Suikoden world, or at least don't exist enough for anyone to comment on them or for any pattern to emerge.

PsychoWarden wrote:

Now, Falena...there's a country I want to see the gender policies in. Hyper-feminist, or just a normal country with a leading Queen instead of King? It should be interesting whichever way it develops.


Well, considering Georg was at one point a Queen's Knight (which, based on what we know, seems to be quite the high rank), and had to be in close confidence to the Queen for him to have been able to kill her, I would say men are allowed to advance in the Falenian ranks and hold confidence with the Queen. I would hate to see Falena be a nation of HeWomanManHaters, because that would just be somewhat insulting. A queen in power shouldn't equal oppression of men.
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Jetlogs




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I seem to remember a quote by Lucia from Suikoden 2 that says something like

They poisoned my father because they knew that the one next in line was a woman... or something like that
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