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Is there/was there ever any religion in Suikoden?
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Lunarblade

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:23 pm    Post subject: Is there/was there ever any religion in Suikoden? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Honestly, I don't remember religious beliefs ever being brought up. I mean, everyone understands the powers of the runes, but I don't think anyone actually worships them (some primitive tribes might though). I find that odd, simply because religion and the search for a Creator/s is such a huge power in humanity, and it seems to be absent from Suikoden. Is this intentional on the part of the creators, or did they simply not consider it? Do you think there actually is an underlying religion/s in the Suiko world?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There are some instances of religion in the games. The Zexens talk about their "goddess" a few times in S3, and you fight the Neclord in a church in Tinto in S2. Churches have to be devoted to a religious figure or they wouldn't be churches. So there is obviously SOME kind of religion in various parts of the Suikoverse, even though it doesn't seem to be as important to the everyday lives of people.

The Runes themselves seem to be almost godlike in their own respect (distant, near-omnipotent intelligent entities with influence and domain over a certain portfolio) but I agree that people don't really refer to them as deities. They don't even seem to be in the same ballpark.
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Tonberry

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would consider praying to the spirits a sort of religion. It's a Grassland thing in Suikoden III. Also, the Alma Kinan people, when they SPOILERS sacrificed Yun END SPOILERS did it in a religious manner I believe. I'm not quite so sure, but I think that Alma Kinan instance would count.

As Wataru previously said, Zexen has their St. Loa. Chris was even in a Church in one of her chapters.

So yes, there is some religion. Mainly in number III.
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Eggith Cyrene




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Harmonia is a therocacy. nuff said.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Zexen poeple does not only worship St. Loa (who is also called "The Horned Loa" which doesn't sound so nice in my opinion), but other gods as well. Sadie, a goddess of fertility, is worshipped at least in Iksay village for example.

The animism of the Karaya and the Alma Kinan or the Tinto church are further examples of religion, as is Qlon temple. And in SuikoGaiden a holy figurine is used to destroy a vampire, hinting at a kobold religion/pantheon.



I always thought that the Harmonian religion does worship the True Runes, above all the Circle Rune. But I could be wrong of course.
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Tonberry

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, HOLY Harmonia definately is religious. I could never put my finger on what they worship though. That would be really silly if they worshiped a rune.
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MMan9000

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Some places do believe in religion and others don't.

The Zexens have a "goddess" and so do the Karayans. The Harmonians have a god of sorts in Hikusaak.

While people in Toran might not believe in any religion. *S1 spoilers* When the soldier promised at the empty Kobold Village on his god, that he wouldn't hurt any of Valeria's friends (the hero and company) if she turned herself in, however, when he ordered the hero and them to be killed, he said that there was no god in those times.

I have no idea what the people of Jowston or the Island Nations believe since there wasn't much religion references if any in S2 or S4.
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Sophita

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There is a tribe in Falena that worships a Crimson Bird. Killey's from there. :D

Lorelai also comments to your character that the "Goddess of Victory" is shining upon (Riou). That could be a Falenian deity or it could just be a diety Lorelai follows or it could be a figure of speech. You decide! :D (I do think, however, if Falena has a state religion, it would be female-focused in nature.)

Harmonia seems to have Hikusaak in the center as God-King, and the circle rune seems highly worshipped as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Just a side note on Falena. It may have a Queen and it may be a Queendom because of that, but I really hope it doesn't turn out to be some uber-feminazi nation where everything is female-orintated from religion down to everyday life. It would risk reducing the nation to a one-note idea. Men do not have to be supressed for a woman to be in charge, especially in a monarchy.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I am glad that religion isn't such a big issue in the Suikoden world. I have a resentment against everything that has to do with god (excluding people, except very strict religious people, who for example say that you can't drink alcohol because god says it. So if you drink beers Ilike you no matter what :) ) because I think believing in god is stupid. I like the Suikoden and Final Fantasy series because they have nothing to do with god. And in Suikoden, we would then probaly get religious wars, jihads, which is the dumbest thing ever, because why would you want to die for something that doesn't even exist?
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Sophita

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldn't want that either, but in a matrilineal society (as it seems to be) , it is common for the most revered subject (Gods) to be that which is held highest in power - if it is ruled by a Queen, then me thinks if I were that Queen, then I would want some kind of diety saying my rule is a divine right, and who better than a Goddess? Then again, (Orthadox) Judaism follows a matrilineal line, and the Jewish God seems very masculine. So who knows?

I don't think men are oppressed in Falena, though. Besides the fact that gender issues don't seem to come up in Suikoden, we have some evidence that men can attain high rank in Falena via Georg, who was a Queen's Knight and had to be highly trusted in the Queendom to be able to assasinate the Queen herself (or at least be suspected of it).

Edit: Gari, I would say religion plays a small role in Suikoden yet much larger than most RPGs. For example, this is one of the few games I know where one state is actually a theocracy, and gods/goddesses are mentioned from time to time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't really think that it does play that large a role, Sophita, at least not yet. Perhaps it will when we get to Harmonia, but I don't know even then. The actions of the characters in Suikoden are in no way effected by the presence of organized religions. The churches exist, somewhere out there, but I don't think that they do anything to impact the game, especially when you compare it to other RPGs. Take Final Fantasy Tactics, for example. In that game, the church is everywhere, and has a very real effect upon the gameworld. You have run ins with church organizations, and they are a very definite power block within the setting. Vagrant Story is another example of this. One of the main groups within the game is the Cardinal's Blades, and the Cardinal has a large impact on the events that unfold.

I think that one reason that religion isn't so prevelant in the Suikoden World is because of the Suikoden creation myth. One of the things that religions do is explain how people and the world came into being. However, for the Suikoden World, this isn't the doing of some god or goddesses, it is the epic clash between Sword and Shield. Then, as an extension of the myth, you have the twenty seven true runes. I could see these being revered as somewhat godly, however, they are present forces (at least at times) within the world. They are still mysterious, but they are a mystery that can be seen. Moreover, they are also controlled by a person who is only a human. They may give that human powers approaching godliness, but these people can still be killed, and if the rune leaves them, they will just be normal people again. With this account of the creation of the world, and the visible legacy left behind in the form of the True Runes, the people, on the whole, do not need other religion, nor is it such a sweeping thing that it becomes a major power in the world.

Watch as we get to Harmonia though, and everything I say is proved wrong :P
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Religion more than likely exists in a somewhat widespread fashion in some form or another within Suikoden but there has never been any focus on it. I mean the games have always been about internal and external conflict not only within a nation or nations but within people themselves. There has never really been enough reason to explore religious beliefs and besides that it would probably just get in the way of the real plot to begin with. However if they were to make a Suikoden game where a religious belief was the centerpiece of the conflict along with the true runes than yeah it could have potential.

That is saying though that it could happen and it could work both ways as a church oppresing the true runes or perhaps supporting them and say a nation trying to eradicate them for one reason or another. Thats just a thought though and there are many things that could come from storylines like these.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Looking to the real world as an example, pretty much every war has been started because of religious differences.

I would like the next war in Suikoden to have a strong religious context - in a way Harmonia invading the grasslands was the closest we have had thus far - and that turned out to be all fake anyway.

Suikoden 1 - I'm a bit rusty here, mostly it was about Windy manipulating everyone to get her hands on Soul Eater... then the Liberation Army was just fighting for the rights of the common man.

Suikoden 2 - A war of revenge on Luca's part. No religion wrapped around that, he wanted vengeance and once he died Leon Silverberg and Jowy decided they could expand the current situation.

Suikoden 3 - Like I said looked like a classical invasion, with the structure of Harmonia and Le Buque being under their rule it seemed like a religious war, expanding their territory and forcing their beliefs on the grasslanders. Turned out however that Harmonia didn't really commit to the war at all and so it was just a pretext Luc created.

Suikoden 4 - The Kooluk invasion -could- have been religious, but it was a war between failing countries, the Kooluk were hardly coming from a position of power. It seemed to be an economically-inspired war since the island nations trade could have been a great asset.

We've had all sorts of wars for all sorts of reasons, yet the most common theme in reality isn't catered for. Not since Suikoden 2 have we had a full force nation on nation war - I'd like to see something like the second world war where Germany stabbed out tactically and took over country after country before being crushed back into their own lands. The issues of late have been scale more than anything, sure the grasslands/luc and sarah's conjured army and kooluk/island nations were good scenarios for smaller wars, but the tiny pixel army battles are what we need back. Even something like the Total War games to show a large scale battle would be nice (if not resource hungry).

So in closing - religion is a good way to spur a massive nation(s) vs nation(s) war of belief, something missing from the Suikoden series of late.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eh, I don't think religion is really that prevalent war causer. Sure, some horrific wars have happened because of it, but it's not always an influence in every war.

Most modern skirmishes have to do more with race/ethnicity rather than religion. Sure sometimes each race has a different religion, but that's just a side effect rather than a cause. WWI and WWII had very little to do with religion, and the holocaust happened because Jews were an ethnic group, not a religion.

Even ancient wars were mostly over land. Islamic expansion used to cover of religion, but it was generally just about getting more and better land. Most common people weren't zealous enough to go fight wars for a god and fight to ensure they had a better food supply.

Anyway, religion has never been a major theme in Suikoden, though it is present. I don't think the sword/shield myth replaces religion, it just provides a base for all Suikoden religions. The only time I see religion as taking a major in Suikoden is if we get to Harmonia. Even then I think the focus will be more on class struggle and equality, with religion as a backdrop to that.
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