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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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Not everyone has the strength to change the world around them into something better. Plus, everyone has limits to what they can handle emotionally. Something you may find trivial, another may find overwhelming


Well if said person doesn't have the will to do so, then they should quickly STFU about what horrors are running amuck in the world. This stance is hypocritical- everything sucks, oh so much responsibility, but I don't think I'll do a damn thing about it.

Quote:
Saying that no one was born into this world to do nothing isn't entirely false. Nor is it entirely true. We are born into this world and are expected to do something. Nature expects us to reproduce and further the species. Society expects to work and further civilization. There is no evidence of some mythical purpose to our being here. This is what is expected of us in life. Those who don't want to do anything about their lives or have anything to do with life aren't being cowards. They are simply (in a way) defying the expectations placed upon them.


And who expects us to do something? You just said there's no evidence of a higher being encouraging us to do something (which is another arguement for itself) so what expectations do we have? Spreading ourselves all over the world has been done many many times and is not required anymore for our species to live. I wouldn't call reproducing an expectation of anything or anyone. Those who don't want to do anything linear in life such as grow up, get a job, have a family, aren't cowards, but those who speak of the crimes of our world and then sit back and state that they'll do nothing, are. That's not defiance.

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A human with the strength to do nothing else but judge, blame, and point out possible wrongs in the universe


There you have the description of the people you are talking about then.

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If the pain and grief that the loss of a child caused parents didn't exist, then the only reason they'd want to help them is so they wont have to pay for the funeral. Then of course religion can come into play, but I wont touch on that cause that's where debate ends.


Yeah okay, and none of this has absolutely anything to do with what we were saying. Case in point, you don't know what you're talking about when you accuse parents of being selfish and worrying about themselves. I guess you're not a parent, or else you wouldn't post such crap.

Quote:
Besides, whats wrong with a generalization? The world is full of them


Because most of them hold no truth at all, which you have demonstrated about so-called heartless parents.

Quote:
I suppose we're talking about two totally different types of strengths.


You're confusing strength with desperation or mental illness.
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Arcana

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Siertes wrote:
I am a huge supporter of suicide, and I guess I should explain why:


What exactly does this mean? If you're a huge supporter of suicide, then why aren't you dead yet?
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Siertes




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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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Yeah okay, and none of this has absolutely anything to do with what we were saying. Case in point, you don't know what you're talking about when you accuse parents of being selfish and worrying about themselves. I guess you're not a parent, or else you wouldn't post such crap.


When most arguments against suicide involve talk of selfishness and hurting loved ones, I'd think my point on parents has a lot to do with this. No, I'm not a parent and obviously never will be, so I'm not positive of how one thinks. I'm just making judgements based around many people's arguments, whether it be wrong or right.

Quote:
You're confusing strength with desperation or mental illness.


I'll give you mental illness, but not desperation. IMO, desperation brings out strength in people, whether it be in winning a race, fighting for your life, or even ending it. But in the end, it's all opinion.

I hate to admit that I can't argue any of the other points made by St. Ajora. This is due to an extensive difference of opinions that would seem logical to one party, but illogical to another.

Quote:
What exactly does this mean? If you're a huge supporter of suicide, then why aren't you dead yet?


One can be a supporter of suicide and not suicidal himself. That doesn't describe me, but I'm just saying. I'm not dead yet because I failed last time. I got scared. Scared that perhaps there was some shitty God who'd send me to hell for destroying this "oh so precious" life he gave me. So now I feel trapped here. Trapped in a world I don't like, I can't change, and can't leave till I can get over the "God Factor".
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You need to stop being mad with your non existant "shitty god". There's no higher power living your life for you. Stop shifting blame for things elsewhere.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No offense, Siertes, but I think when something like 80-or-whatever% of the people said that "Suicide is for cowards! BOO SUICIDE!", they were referring specifically to people who say down and whined about life and its horrors and its misery, without making an effort to: Acknowledge that one has a problem and needs help, or realise that there's an illness, or listen carefully to knock one's self out of the cycle, or whatever.

Suicide is, unfortunately, often associated with teen angst. People find teen angst annoying and see teen angst suicide threats and discussion as attention-grabbing methods. I know, I was there. It wasn't good for me, or for my friends, or for my family, to constantly think suicidal thoughts and threaten it, without actually carrying it out. I don't think you should go commit suicide, but if you've tried and failed, then you really have to lift yourself up and move on. Suicide obviously wasn't your answer, you've been given another lot in life. Take the lot and do something else with it.

Besides, what is it about the world you don't like, anyway?

Take what I have just said with a grain of salt. I am NOT a psychologisy and I am NOT a social worker. I hold no responsibility for what you choose to do with your life.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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I got scared. Scared that perhaps there was some shitty God who'd send me to hell for destroying this "oh so precious" life he gave me. So now I feel trapped here. Trapped in a world I don't like, I can't change, and can't leave till I can get over the "God Factor".


or just having a more crappier life than what ever you had now, feedlot cow, sweat shop child, house plant, wheel chair bound and mentaly ill.

you know, that kind of stuff.
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Vincent Chase

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Is suicide a sign of weakness? You can't really give an answer to that, despite evidence that it either can be or if it's something beyond control. Life is pretty intense, but any time I get down and things get tough I just get through it, and all people really should be able to do this. However, with all of the possible neurogenitive conditions and what they can all do, alot of times it's placed beyond the control of the individual (such as the Severely Depressed and Bipolar). It's not that I refuse to answer whether or not it's selfish, but it's just not an issue that there can't be only one philosophy on. It's all about situation and circumstances, because if a suicidal Mental Patient and a rich Banker both committed suicide on the same day, different things would be said about both, and that's just one example.

And really, I think we have Free Will from any 'Higher Power'. I'm not saying God doesn't exist (you tell me what caused the Big Bang), but we are free to live and kill ourselves as we please. And viewing freedom as an ideal of perfection, something that God completely has to be, you can see that this is why one exists!
If someone's pro suicide let them be. It does keep the population in check (2000 people a day), and you are more likely to kill yourself than be killed by someone. As I have said I don't really see it any particular way each time, but I probably wouldn't ever do it (because you don't know the future)

How about this idea: When you die your soul goes not to a good or bad place based on how you acted in life, but lives on forever in paradise? Do we really know what happens? Exactly, so think about that. I find it hard to believe that a short 'life' with the capacity to give plenty of pain can lead to something worse once it's over.
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Vince Muerto

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Why is this in the educational forum?

Reading a few of the things here made me laugh. How can anyone be pro-suicide and still be alive? I guess they mean pro-suicide of other people.

In response to the topic: I do think suicide is cowardly. It's for wimps.
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Maximillian

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I believe nobody is pro-suicide, but are simply arging whether it is ethical or not. The two are completely separate issues.

There's many different kinds of suicide as well. Some people kill themselves to protect other people, such as people who save others from certain death, knowing that saving others will kill them.

Some others decide to kill themselves because there is not enough food in their community, and they no longer can help (old or feeble people).

I think those take courage.
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Pierrot Le Fou

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well I think its the most personal choice anyone can conceivably make. Its a different situation everytime so there is never, and I mean never one way to catagorize all suicides.

I had an uncle who killed himself at 17, of course I never met him and Im sure alot of you are thinking, "Oh! 17, teen angst!!" but no, it wasn't that at all. They say if you have underlying mental diseases in your genes, if you were to trip acid, under certain cercumstances these problems wouldn't be idle anymore.

Well, he did take acid, frequently and he basically lost his mind over the course of a few months. He told my mom he was losing his identity and nobody loved him. If you've ever had a nervous breakdown or felt like you didn't know yourself, living doesn't always seem appealing anymore.

It wasn't a cry for help suicide attempt, and It wasn't spur of the moment suicide of passion. This is a serious thing here kids, maybe one day you wont be so sure of yourselves, maybe youre not as collected as you think you are. Till then, take it serious if you know someone on the brink of suicide.

You there saying "Suicide is for wimps" ..grow up a little huh?
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Maximillian

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Very sad story Pierrot Le Fou, and it illustrates how the problem of suicide isn't too simple. People tend to see things in simple black/white terms, but reality is usually in the gray area. I completely agree with your last comment as well!
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Vince Muerto

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maximillian Quixote wrote:
I believe nobody is pro-suicide, but are simply arging whether it is ethical or not. The two are completely separate issues.

There's many different kinds of suicide as well. Some people kill themselves to protect other people, such as people who save others from certain death, knowing that saving others will kill them.

Some others decide to kill themselves because there is not enough food in their community, and they no longer can help (old or feeble people).

I think those take courage.


I don't think dying protecting others is considered suicide though. Those people are giving up their lives for another, but they aren't necessarily the cause of their own deaths.

Pierrot_Le_Fou wrote:
I had an uncle who killed himself at 17, of course I never met him and Im sure alot of you are thinking, "Oh! 17, teen angst!!" but no, it wasn't that at all. They say if you have underlying mental diseases in your genes, if you were to trip acid, under certain cercumstances these problems wouldn't be idle anymore.

Well, he did take acid, frequently and he basically lost his mind over the course of a few months. He told my mom he was losing his identity and nobody loved him. If you've ever had a nervous breakdown or felt like you didn't know yourself, living doesn't always seem appealing anymore.


He probably took acid because of "teen angst" though. It was most likely an act of rebellion, which is what teen angst is embodied as. He wouldn't have had to look for drugs to make him feel happy if he had been happy to begin with.
This is an exception to the "suicide is for wimps" statement though. I guess I was being too broad because of laziness. This wasn't wimpy because his decision to commit suicide was made as a result of mental illness. This is probably not the decision he would have made had he been in his normal state of mind. For a decision to be wimpy it has to be made by the person willingly.
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Maximillian

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Vince Muerto wrote:
I don't think dying protecting others is considered suicide though. Those people are giving up their lives for another, but they aren't necessarily the cause of their own deaths.


It is.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary wrote:

1 a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind.


A person who kills him or herself due to drug's effects are not comitting suicide because they are not of sound mind. Recently there have been a few cases of people taking powerful anti-influenza drugs that has delusional side-effects and jumping off of tall buildings or running out into the front of a semi-truck.
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Vince Muerto

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Merriam-Webster Dictionary wrote:

1 a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind.


This just proves my point. It says "taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally." As I said before, dying to protect someone isn't the same as taking one's own life voluntarily. That implies that the person is the one to cause his own death, not that they die as a result of saving another.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nah, it really doesn't. Read any book on modern philosophy that deals with the problems of suicide, and you can read numerous accouns on how suicide may be justifiable if it is done to save other life. The most common example you'd read in these books will be a soldier who throws himself over a hand-grenade to save his fellow squad-mates. Dying to protect someone voluntarily is exactly the same thing as taking one's own life voluntarily.
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