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Pilika

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Suicide Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In your view is suicide a sign of weaknes or strength. I used to think of it as weaknes, but something that my friend said maid me change my opinon a little. What are your comments?
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iscalio




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Most forms of suicide are an expression of desperate vanity, and thus an act of weakness and cowardice.


Your post would have been more interesting if you would have told us what your friend said that changed your opinion.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

iscalio wrote:
Most forms of suicide are an expression of desperate vanity, and thus an act of weakness and cowardice..


I'll have to agree with iscalio on this one. That said, I wouldn't encourage someone to commit suicide, but I'm not going to waste my time giving someone attention thus validating the persons form of attention seeking, just don't expect a drop of sympathy from me 99% of the time.
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kuwaizair

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There was once a long horrble discussion about this at Devian art. somone was whining that "westreners have such a bad view on suicide, why can't we see it like eastren cultures do" somthing like that.

apparently they confussed ritural suicide with anything some teen would do.
they sure got it I can tell you that.
I can't really say, somtimes you are dying but won't die alredy, then there is "i'm fat my boyfriend dumped me...*blows head off*
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Wataru

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You can't make generalizations like on subjects like this. There are so many gray areas, saying "suicide = cowardice" sells everyone short.

Granted, I believe too many people make a rash decision and kill themselves when things can get better. I consider this a tragedy. I want to say, "good riddance" or "another weak-minded idiot is gone from the gene pool" or some other horrible thing like that, but we really don't know what they felt. I'm not going to pass judgment on people and say that they're just whiners who want sympathy.

I don't agree with suicide in general, but I can't say I would never consider it. I have never been in a mental state where I would feel compelled to do something like that. And I hope that I never do. But, should the situation arise, I don't think any one of us can definitively say they we wouldn't if faced with a situation where we truly felt so hopeless and so alone.

A friend of my sisters killed himself a few years ago because he was on drugs and his mental state wasn't right. I know from watching my sister and her friends afterwards (I never really knew the guy) that it is devastating on those left behind. They second-guess everything they ever said or did ... "Why didn't I see the warning signs? If I was only there with him it never would have happened." I don't blame him for making my sister feel that way, I don't blame anyone.

What about people like Teri Schiavo? I know nobody wants to bring that mess up again, but assisted suicide is whole other ball of whacks. There is also a self-sacrifice kind of suicide [MOVIE SPOILER (highlight to read): like Bruce Willis' character in Sin City ] or what Socrates did.

Emotions are powerful things and I don't think that someone driven to the ultimate extreme is necessarily weak or worthy of scorn. Sometimes slapping people in the face and saying "shut up and deal with it!" is not going to do anyone any good.
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Tonberry

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I can't imagine ever committing suicide. I don't believe suicide is the answer. I believe it's the coward's way out. Even if the person who is willing to commit suicide doesn't care about dying, those who love him or her will be hurt. It may get the committer out of a hard place, but it puts all of their loved ones in an even harder one and may even compell a loved one to commit suicide themselves. A good example of that is in Romeo and Juliet. I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about so I don't have to go into it.

I will definately extend my sympathy to those who wish to kill themselves and I'd try my best to convince them not to do it. The thought of taking one's own life scares me. Some people may think that it's their life and they can do what they want, but I think that it's not just their decisions because a suicide has a great impact on others.

In conclusion...no one should do it! :evil:
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I will say this. I have felt suicidal on one occasion in my life but even I was smart enough to know this much: I could soldier on with my burdens if I wanted to and also that I'd be a jerk to do it and hurt the few who would care, mainly family et cetera. The problem was that at the time, I didn't WANT to soldier on and I didn't CARE if people felt bad.

Feeling suicidal or depressed or sad or WHATEVER is no excuse for you to override logic and the welfare of others in order to satisfy your own selfish needs. I'm not talking about assisted suicide in cases of debilitating disease, or sacrificing yourself to save someone else, or killing yourself to stop the Evil Terrorists getting the formula for the Magic Biological Weapon. I am talking about "normal" suicide. I would not have sympathy for someone who robbed a bank because he "really wanted money" and I will not have any sympathy for someone who robs themselves of their life because he "really felt like it".

You always have a choice in these situations, and I'm not going to cry a river if you pick the wrong one.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. In my of the cases, it is an extremely selfish act as well.

I don't view suicide as the "way out". I don't view it as something logical, nor normal to do or think about. There is always a way out in our society. Many suicidals (and thus, many young people who THINK they are suicidal) believe that they have no hope- they wallow in whatever feeling it is that drives them to hurt, and dismiss that energy to do something productive and positive.

That is my view on the matter of those who constantly chew on the idea of taking their live, without thinking of the consequences, or ways to help themselves first. There are those out there who are mentally ill and it takes more than a counsillor or an epiphany to think "Hey, I need to get over this and make my life more enjoyable". And sadly, then you have these thousands of other cases that are known, for attention getting and whatnot. I knew a girl in elementary whose mother committed suicide because their house burned down and she divorced her husband. Is that right? Leaving two kids and an ex-spouse behind? That's horrible. Taking the easy way out while you leave others to pick up the pieces.

Being suicidal IS a weakness. If you have the guts to cut vertically or to overdose, but fall short on helping yourself, then you're not a very strong person at all.

But for those who don't have help, and have nobody to lose- my heart goes out to them. I hope no one ever has to go through that.

edit: I'd like to point out something in John's post-

Quote:
Feeling suicidal or depressed or sad or WHATEVER is no excuse for you to override logic and the welfare of others in order to satisfy your own selfish needs.


Actually, it is. Depression is very difficult to fight for those who feel like they have nothing in their lives. Suicide does not have to be justified, it has to be stopped. Sure suicidals make the wrong choice (according to us) but it's not as easy to overcome, as you imply. When you have that chemical imbalance in your brain, you're not thinking logic or the welfare of others. You're thinking about yourself. And in most cases, that's the problem. You can't help yourself.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

St. Ajora wrote:
Quote:
Feeling suicidal or depressed or sad or WHATEVER is no excuse for you to override logic and the welfare of others in order to satisfy your own selfish needs.


Actually, it is. Depression is very difficult to fight for those who feel like they have nothing in their lives. Suicide does not have to be justified, it has to be stopped. Sure suicidals make the wrong choice (according to us) but it's not as easy to overcome, as you imply. When you have that chemical imbalance in your brain, you're not thinking logic or the welfare of others. You're thinking about yourself. And in most cases, that's the problem. You can't help yourself.


Severe depression can alter one's mental state to such a degree that it may seem the only way out, the only option. While I am not condoning the practice of taking one's own life or do I think it in any situation the only option, I still feel that the reason behind why they did is more important than the act itself.

I believe suicide to be the most irrationally selfish answer to any problem. If a suicidal person would look around them and see how those who are closest to them would feel were they to commit the act they may in fact change their mind. However, I am not saying that this would be so in all cases.

I do not condemn those who take their lives but rather pity them. Think of all they missed.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

St. Ajora wrote:
Actually, it is. Depression is very difficult to fight for those who feel like they have nothing in their lives. Suicide does not have to be justified, it has to be stopped. Sure suicidals make the wrong choice (according to us) but it's not as easy to overcome, as you imply. When you have that chemical imbalance in your brain, you're not thinking logic or the welfare of others. You're thinking about yourself. And in most cases, that's the problem. You can't help yourself.


You fail to say why this is but rather go with the circular logic that it IS ok simply because it happens. I know they can only think of themselves and I know it's a chemical imbalance but any fool worth his biological make-up can break that chain if they want to. I did based on the simple fact that I was an atheist. Nothing more helped me snap out of the suicide spiral. I am not some super willpowered person, I am a below-average person and if I can break the spiral then anyone can.

You can help yourself but people choose NOT to help themselves. The stripping away of human responsibilites and attributing them to chemical imbalances is one of the great wrongs of modern society. Everything we do is caused by our "chemical balance" or lack thereof and always has been, good AND bad. I'll give you credit when your chemical balance "makes you" do something good so don't expect me to leave you off the hook when it "makes you" do something stupid.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
I believe suicide to be the most irrationally selfish answer to any problem. If a suicidal person would look around them and see how those who are closest to them would feel were they to commit the act they may in fact change their mind. However, I am not saying that this would be so in all cases.


That's right. It's just horrible that, in some cases (and actually, usually a number of them) suicidals (or those that inflict some time of harm upon themselves) do not have anyone close to them to take the fall..

Quote:
You fail to say why this is but rather go with the circular logic that it IS ok simply because it happens.


It's not okay- I haven't said that at all. I don't know why it's so hard- I haven't been in that situation, but on the outside of many. So I cannot give you any reasons why that is.

Quote:
I know they can only think of themselves and I know it's a chemical imbalance but any fool worth his biological make-up can break that chain if they want to.


Well I'm sure if that were true, our countries suicide rates wouldn't be as high as they are. It's great that you're optimistic, but it's more than just breaking a chain. Many suicidals who are truly affected by such a mentality or disease require more than the breaking of a chain.

Quote:
I did based on the simple fact that I was an atheist. Nothing more helped me snap out of the suicide spiral. I am not some super willpowered person, I am a below-average person and if I can break the spiral then anyone can.


I'm glad that you overcame that, but most people aren't like you, and cannot accept your reasoning for moving past suicide.

Quote:
You can help yourself but people choose NOT to help themselves. The stripping away of human responsibilites and attributing them to chemical imbalances is one of the great wrongs of modern society


I agree, but there are people out there who are really affected by something in their head. A lot of people try to help themselves in different ways, but it may not work. I don't believe that suicide is an answer, but I don't think that we should chaulk up all cases as if every affected individual can easily move past something of that nature.

Quote:
Everything we do is caused by our "chemical balance" or lack thereof and always has been, good AND bad. I'll give you credit when your chemical balance "makes you" do something good so don't expect me to leave you off the hook when it "makes you" do something stupid.


Suicidals may not see it as something stupid. And you don't need to be suicidal to hurt yourself- to us, it is stupid, it is wrong to hurt yourself like that. But if I were to say to someone who does that (and I have, in the past, unfortunately) "any fool can break the chain" well that's a bit ignorant. We can't expect everyone to follow in our footsteps. It may not be a case of someone not choosing to help themselves- maybe they just don't know how.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Those who commit suicide (for no logical reason) often do it out of severe depression, which is a clinical condition. The idea that suicide is for "weak people" paints over the real issue of depression and its causes. "A strong will" does not help with depression, because this is an issue of brain chemistry, and more often requires help my clinical professionals rather than friendship.

Although the common perception is that people commit suicide to get attention, the fact still remains that tens of thousands of people commit suicide eveyr year and are never reported; some are simply reported as missing. Only the few cases where people make a big fuss out of their suicide does the media give attention. The vast majority of those who kill themselves do it quietly and unnoticed. They are often not found for a very long time, if ever.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Have you guys ever read The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell? It talks about how if something becomes a trend, people will do it for no reason except that. One thing was suicide. Sorry I can't remember where this happened but there was a time when teens thought that suicide was cool. They would commit suicide for no reason other than that. They would have suicide parties and it got so out of control parents just didn't know what to do about it. I can't believe people commited suicide because it was the "in" thing to do!

When it comes to suicide in normal (or at least more normal than that) circumstances, you just never really know. It could be because they are weak, an illness, many hardships in thier life, whatever. I think that as long as you value life and help your friends and family to value thiers, then that's all that matters. If you don't value life at all, then what's the point?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think that it all depends on the situation and reasoning for the suicide. There is nothing wrong in my personal opinion if someone is suffering and dying anyway if they decide to end their life as a last resort. Sometimes there are no other options besides sticking it out and continuing to suffer horribly until they finally die or peacefully commiting suicide. I am somewhat religious and I do believe that suicide is wrong but I think god is forgiving enough to allow it in extreme cases like this.

However I do not believe it should be condoned or accepted in any way if the person is merely depressed or unhappy about something. There are plenty of proffessionals who can council people about these things and there are no excuses not to.
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Arcana

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My sister's friend went to a prestitious school, received good grades, and had a boyfriend whom she loved very much. He had been depressed before, but she felt that she was helping him. They were getting along quite well and she felt that he was beginning to snap out of it.

She came home one day and found him on the ground, dead. The rope he had used to hang himself had snapped.

Telling this girl that her boyfriend was a coward and that he did something that only losers do wouldn't be a very good way to provide her with comfort.
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