| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Sai Fujiwara
Executors of Divine Providence
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Post Count: 3848
Location: Montmittel
22038 Potch
0 Soldiers
5678 Nation Points
|
 Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:12 pm Post subject: |
  |
|
| Arcana wrote: |
| Telling this girl that her boyfriend was a coward and that he did something that only losers do wouldn't be a very good way to provide her with comfort. |
I think you're probably right, Arcana.
I imagine most suicides are kind of a case-by-case basis. At least in Western societies. I pretty much share the prevailing opinion that these kids of suicides out of depression or problems in life are horrible, and should be prevented if at all possible. I've felt "suicidal" to a point at a much younger age, but I put that in quotations, because now I'm not even sure if I was 100% certain of what it was I was feeling or going through. I know I wasn't happy, and had a lot of self-pity. I've moved past it now, but I imagine that most people who experience and actually follow through with it, must suffer to a much greater degree. So attempting to compare people who have killed themselves with me, is probably a very fruitless pursuit.
Anyway, suicidal people need help. I think the best thing you can do, is take every case seriously... I mean, sure perhaps some people do it for attention...
But ask yourself this. Which is the greater evil? Giving a whiner attention who doesn't deserve it, and is going overboard? Or ignoring a potentially suicidal person, just because you think "They're just doing it for attention."? Especially if they later DO prove suicidal, and kill themselves.
To me, the answer is rather obvious. It's too bad that so many people have apathetic hearts, and could care less about their fellow man.
However, there is one thing I did want to touch on that I think kuwaizair mentioned. There are times in eastern cultures, where suicides can be an honorable or ritual thing. Of course, most Westerners would probably have a hard time grasping this concept, but in this case, I would take a higher view of suicides. To the people who commit this, they consider it as more honorable than facing dishonor, or whatever else. I think the samural practiced this, however I'm a little bit sketchy on eastern history, so Sars Ad-Minh will probably have to come in here and clarify this.
Anyway, in cases of the latter, I think it's just different cultural values and norms, and I have a much easier time accepting that, and respecting the person's actions and wishes.
_________________
Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Vextor
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Post Count: 12081
Location: Hell
11324811 Potch
23689 Soldiers
160 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I wouldn't say "Eastern Cultures," because ritual suicide is something that is uniquely refined in Japan. The same cannot be said for other "Eastern Cultures."
Japanese politics have been dominated by warrior clans (samurai) led by regional warlords (daimyo) for centuries starting in the Heian Era, when the warrior class emerged as a powerful force and overwhelmed the nobles in the imperial court.
The warrior class swore loyalty to his lord, but also to his own clan (which are basically family). If a warrior caused some sort of shame by losing a battle or by making some mistake (like destroying their lord's favorite tea cup), can save their clan from shame through ritual suicide, called seppuku ("harakiri" is slang, and is inappropriate). Combined certain stoic ideals appropriated from Zen Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism, the warrior class developed their own philosophy that focused on loyalty and honor. When you believe in such ideals, the value of your own life becomes worthless compared to the value of your clan. This is why warriors often volunteered and wished for seppuku rather than run away and live with shame.
Even after the end of the warrior class in Japan following the Meiji Restoration, the warrior's philosophy continued to affect Japan. In fact, it was no longer something solely affecting the warrior class; it spread into all other levels of society and became known as "yamato damashii" (The Yamato Spirit -- * Yamato is the old name for Japan). So then you had military officers and even common citizens killing themselves to avoid their family from having shame. This continued until the endof WW II.
But even today, there's still a certain level of disassociation of the "self" from an individual's personhood. People often identify with groups far more than with themselves. For that reason, lack of association with a group can shatter a person's basis for an identity and lead to suicide. That's not something particular to Japan though, you see it everywhere; even among animals (such as with coyote "kingdoms" and communities of higher apes). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sage
The Invincible Weeds
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Post Count: 15653
Location: Blight's Bay
803820 Potch
0 Soldiers
2 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| iscalio wrote: |
| Your post would have been more interesting if you would have told us what your friend said that changed your opinion. |
I must admit I'm quite curious as to what your friend told you as well.
Anyway, I knew someone who committed suicide. I didn't know her well enough to say whether she was a coward or not, but I did see the devastation it caused her family as well as many others who knew her better than I. Quite frankly, it is a problem that desperately needs to be solved. I am personally against the idea of suicide for any reason, but with so many gray areas involved, I can't say whether it solely a cowardly thing to do or not.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Filipe
The Executors of Harmonian Order
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Post Count: 2030
Location: Montmittel
35712 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ahhh yes the warrior class of Japanese society of the thirteenth to I believe it was the sixteenth or seventeenth century. Where the warrior classes honor raised above higher than their very lives even over the most minute and silly things. I would not have been surprised if people had commited ritual suicide over small things like breaking their lords favorite tea cup. It is sad sometimes to see things develop in that manner because suicide should really only be in extreme cases and such shouldnt it?
Oh well I suppose it's good that people even up until the end of World War two could hold to certain ideals and think of their families over their own lives.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vextor
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Post Count: 12081
Location: Hell
11324811 Potch
23689 Soldiers
160 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Actually, tea cups (more like bowls) were considered to have tremendous value, and those made by famous artisans sometimes fetched a hefty price. One daimyo who was defeated by Oda Nobunaga blew himself up with gunpowder along with his tea cups to make sure Oda would never have any of them (Oda really wanted those tea cups). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tonberry
The Tonberry Eggsperience
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Post Count: 18319
Location: Budehuc Castle
1819401 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sars Ad-Minh wrote: |
| Actually, tea cups (more like bowls) were considered to have tremendous value, and those made by famous artisans sometimes fetched a hefty price. One daimyo who was defeated by Oda Nobunaga blew himself up with gunpowder along with his tea cups to make sure Oda would never have any of them (Oda really wanted those tea cups). |
I don't really understand the value of tea cups very well, but to me that just sounds rather silly. I don't like the idea of a suicide just because a teacup was broken no matter how much it was worth.
Another suicide issue that I am completely opposed to is the "honorable" suicide where you kill yourself and many others with you. September 11th is a prime example of that horrible crime. It's just a horrible thing to do. Killing yourself is bad enough, but killing others is just plain evil. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Crono
Something Wicked
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Post Count: 1775
Location: Tenzan Pass
162570 Potch
200 Soldiers
40 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Suicide is a ridiculous concept and action to me. Nobody should rid themselves of the most precious thing of all, life.
_________________
"Into battle we ride
With gods by our side
We are strong, and not afraid to die
We have an urge to kill
And our lust for blood has to be fulfilled
We'll fight 'till the end, and send our enemies straight to hell!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vextor
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Post Count: 12081
Location: Hell
11324811 Potch
23689 Soldiers
160 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Everyone's Grudge wrote: |
| Sars Ad-Minh wrote: |
| Actually, tea cups (more like bowls) were considered to have tremendous value, and those made by famous artisans sometimes fetched a hefty price. One daimyo who was defeated by Oda Nobunaga blew himself up with gunpowder along with his tea cups to make sure Oda would never have any of them (Oda really wanted those tea cups). |
I don't really understand the value of tea cups very well, but to me that just sounds rather silly. I don't like the idea of a suicide just because a teacup was broken no matter how much it was worth. |
However, tea ceremony was a life/death thing for people back then.
It still is, for some people. If you destroy a particularly priceless tea bowl, you'll not only be sued, but you'll probably also buy lasting resentment. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Arcana
The Engineers
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Post Count: 2035
Location: Lion's Maw
190546 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sai Fujiwara wrote: |
Anyway, suicidal people need help. I think the best thing you can do, is take every case seriously... I mean, sure perhaps some people do it for attention...
But ask yourself this. Which is the greater evil? Giving a whiner attention who doesn't deserve it, and is going overboard? Or ignoring a potentially suicidal person, just because you think "They're just doing it for attention."? Especially if they later DO prove suicidal, and kill themselves.
To me, the answer is rather obvious. It's too bad that so many people have apathetic hearts, and could care less about their fellow man. |
Suicide is NOT something that most normal people know how to handle. If someone talks to you and they're giving you signs of suicidal thoughts, you not only need to talk to this person, but you need to get that person help. Tell their loved onese or their other friends, and be sure that someone such as a social worker or a doctor knows about this person's intentions. Even if it all turns out to be, as some people said, a cry for attention, you've probably done something important.
A cry for attention is often a cry for help.
_________________
Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sai Fujiwara
Executors of Divine Providence
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Post Count: 3848
Location: Montmittel
22038 Potch
0 Soldiers
5678 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sars Ad-Minh wrote: |
| I wouldn't say "Eastern Cultures," because ritual suicide is something that is uniquely refined in Japan. The same cannot be said for other "Eastern Cultures." |
My appologies for over-generalizing. I was under the impresson that other cultures, like the Chinese, would rather kill themselves than face dishonor as well. However, I don't think it's denyable that Japan has refined it to an art of sorts. Thanks for offering a little more clarification.
| Crono wrote: |
| Suicide is a ridiculous concept and action to me. Nobody should rid themselves of the most precious thing of all, life. |
Though I can sympathize with this view, and the view that Everyone's Grudge has expressed, different cultures have different views on life. Just because those people would rather die than live with their dishonor to themeselves and their entire family, isn't something that should be looked down upon by those who may not share those views. Nobody is saying you have to agree, but you shouldn't look down upon them for having their views.
One thing I am opposed to is the idea of trying to kill yourself and others in the process of doing so. I don't see much honor in that, unless you're actually defending something. Such as a band of criminals attacking your family, or your nation was under attack.
| Arcana wrote: |
Suicide is NOT something that most normal people know how to handle. If someone talks to you and they're giving you signs of suicidal thoughts, you not only need to talk to this person, but you need to get that person help. Tell their loved onese or their other friends, and be sure that someone such as a social worker or a doctor knows about this person's intentions. Even if it all turns out to be, as some people said, a cry for attention, you've probably done something important.
A cry for attention is often a cry for help. |
Heh, yeah I think you pretty much summed up what it was I was trying to say. Granted, we might not all know how to handle the situation, but I think the most important thing you can do to someone who is experiencing suicidal thoughts, or depression, is to offer positive encouragement.
But, that's mostly guesswork. I can't say I've ever had to help someone in that situation, but it sounds like good advice.
_________________
Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Filipe
The Executors of Harmonian Order
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Post Count: 2030
Location: Montmittel
35712 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah I can completely understand about the whole tea cups thing considering that even now people pay crazy amounts of money for tea cups or even tea sets. I am not surprised that someone would destroy themselves and their prized possesions just to make sure that someone else would not get his or her hands on them. That shows a certain level of desperation which is not nessasarily a good thing when it comes to a persons character. However it is honorable in a way to show one final act of sheer defiance by denying his enemy one of the things he really really wanted.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blackwind
Ravenstrike
Joined: 05 May 2005
Post Count: 165
Location: Gregminster
66500 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was raised to believe that suicide is a cowards act And I certainly belive that to be the case a lot of the time. But in this world things can never be as simple as as black and white and this is one of the those things that the situation play heavly on how you view the act.
9/11- This wasn't suicide from a disire to die, this was a decleration of war on america. I doubt that they even considered it suicide. They were fanatics that believed that america is the prime source of evil and corruption in this world. In my own mind I see them simply as soldiers using gurrilla tactics on a global scale. I don't know if they are the best example of "Honorable Suicide".
Columbine-I think that these two are prime examples of the cowards that commit suicide. While some would argue that they needed counsling or medication I really think that they were just weak. They shot up the school and killed them selfs in the library. Why? They had no freinds. BULLSHIT! Crazy people don't shoot others for not being there friend. Crazy people hold a grudge for 20 years then come after you and make puppets out of your skin!.
Seppuku-This one is different. Most of these samurai wern't really killing them self for there own honor. They did it so that their familys would stay in honor and be fed and protected. While I think it was waste of life, if self-sacrifice for you loved ones does not bring honor then what does? Now looking through the history we find a lot of those that refused Seppuku had no family(mostly Ronin) and I would view their death as stupid.
Vikings-My own ancestors had a practice of falling on their swords in battle when they got old so they could die with honor and the Valkyries would take them to Valhalla. Now i'm sure that the Valkyries are adept at spoting such fakers. But I also think this served a higher purpose then just Valhalla. The winters were harsh, food scarce and the knowledge of the elderly not really exceading anyone else's if a warrior reached old age he had nothing better to look forawrd to then being a burden on his children and dyeing in pain. So why not rush into battle, kill a couple enemys to prove yourself and then fall on your blade. The Valkries come along and see that not only is a skilled fighter but also knows what best for everyone and takes him to Odin's Hall. So i guess that it was more or less as "Honorable" as suicide is gona get.
Notice: I tried to be objective in this next part so bear with it please if it comes out odd.
A girl I knew- Now for the one suicide in my life. I once knew a nice catholic girl. She went to church on sundays and helped with 2 of the mid-week events. This girl had a wicked step-father. Now this Step-father was not as wicked as some that we see in the news but he believed that 16 was the age that children should be out of the house. So at 17 she was sleeping in parks or under bridges and earning money be working for members of the church. Now be homless will cause a girl to gain certain reputations which in this case are not true. Still this does not stop people from makeing offers anyway. Well one night "no" was not the right answer and she was given no say in what happend next. I Identified her body the next day. She threw herself in to a cold river. It's hard for me to say that this girl was a coward after the many things that she went through. Her family cast her out and she had very few people to turn to. Had I a place I would have let her stay but at the time I was sleeping on my aunts living room floor. This was some one who was not generaly a depressed person this was some one that had a horible thing happen to her. I think that if she had a door to knock on or a shoulder then she would have been okay. while i no that there was nothing honorable in her death I can't bring my self to call it cowardly. though this taght me more then any of the stuff i listed above. That lesson is "Everybody needs people"
So yeah I think that every suicide should be considerd based on the situation.
Damn...I made my eyes leak...
_________________
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily, this is not difficult.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tonberry
The Tonberry Eggsperience
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Post Count: 18319
Location: Budehuc Castle
1819401 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sars Ad-Minh wrote: |
| Everyone's Grudge wrote: |
| Sars Ad-Minh wrote: |
| Actually, tea cups (more like bowls) were considered to have tremendous value, and those made by famous artisans sometimes fetched a hefty price. One daimyo who was defeated by Oda Nobunaga blew himself up with gunpowder along with his tea cups to make sure Oda would never have any of them (Oda really wanted those tea cups). |
I don't really understand the value of tea cups very well, but to me that just sounds rather silly. I don't like the idea of a suicide just because a teacup was broken no matter how much it was worth. |
However, tea ceremony was a life/death thing for people back then.
It still is, for some people. If you destroy a particularly priceless tea bowl, you'll not only be sued, but you'll probably also buy lasting resentment. |
Sorry, I know very little about Japanese culture. I guess that means a lot to them. I still stick with what I think though.
And Sai, I'm sorry if I sounded like I look down on it, but I just feel that it is unfortunate. I don't believe it dishonorable to kill yourself, but I feel that it's better to live with no honor than to die (Just my opinion). However, if someone is committing suicide to kill an innocent person, I will look down on that anyday. It's murder. Defending yourself is a different story, but when it comes to innocent people, that's where you draw the line.
Blackwind, I'm sorry to hear about that girl. It's horrible when things come to this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
St. Ajora
SOUL PATROL!
Joined: 19 Dec 2004
Post Count: 917
Location: Caldeaux
-98944 Potch
-54 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Columbine-I think that these two are prime examples of the cowards that commit suicide. While some would argue that they needed counsling or medication I really think that they were just weak. They shot up the school and killed them selfs in the library. Why? They had no freinds. BULLSHIT! Crazy people don't shoot others for not being there friend. Crazy people hold a grudge for 20 years then come after you and make puppets out of your skin!.
|
Actually, if you were subjected to daily social torture and bullying, your opinion would be the exact opposite. Having a hard life doesn't excuse one of taking another, but it sure fleshes out the background and a reason as to why it happened in the first place. it was a lot more than having "no friends", and you'd be surprised just how much of a disruptance in one's life being lonely can be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Arcana
The Engineers
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Post Count: 2035
Location: Lion's Maw
190546 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For some reason, there's something in my mind that distinguishes "killing yourself" and "suicide". Suicide to me has a connotation of being the "depressed lonely person who hangs himself in the backyard". Killing yourself suggests to me dying due to self-inflicted wounds in the heat of battle or something (such as if you're done shooting up a school and kill yourself).
I know the dictionary makes no such distinction.
_________________
Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
