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Kalidor

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:16 am    Post subject: Suikoden Dragons Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dragons have always been one of my favourite things in fantasy settings. The Dragon Knights in Suikoden I rocked my world. I found the whole concept to be highly appealing, from the strict, militaristic society, to the way that the Knights are able to stay autonomous because of the power of their warriors, and that they hire out their skills. I also found the somewhat Anne McCaffreyish dragon bonding to be a cool addition.

However, what I want to know more about is the dragons themselves. I've looked over the information I can find about them, and it has left me with a taste for more. For instance, just how many different types of dragons are there? I know for sure that we've seen Black, Red, Green, and White Dragons about, but are there more? I know that White ones are rare. Is there an aspect of the DnD dragons in here, that there are several different colours of dragons, each with their own tempraments and abilities?

I've also wondered about the size of the dragons, that is, just how big are they? I haven't seen the character animation for Bright in Suikoden III, so that might have answered my question if I'd seen it. I'd have to assume that they are somewhat large though, since Black in Suikoden I was able to carry seven people with him to Magician's Island. Was Bright in Suikoden III just big enough for Futch to ride on, or was he quite a bit larger? I have an image of something maybe...elephant size or so, not the gargantuan beasts that one sees in many movies. Thoughts on dragon size?

Does every dragon have some kind of magical breath attack too? In Suikoden I, the Dragon Knight unit has a fleet of dragons bombarding the enemy with some kind of magic. Is this a natural ability of dragons, or is it rune based? Or perhaps every dragon is born with a rune that lets him conjure up such magic?

There is much more I would like to find out too, such as the depth of the bond between Knight and Dragon, if it is telepathic and so forth. Also, I'd be very interested in learning the battle tactics of the Dragon Knights and such, though I'm sure those haven't been confirmed anywhere. I think people see what I'm getting at though. Tell me what you know about Suikoden dragons please! :D
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

bright has to be fairly large; when you have the option to recruit futch, he offers a ride to caleria to geddoe's party-this would make him, at a rough guess, equal to or only slightly smaller than black, size wise.

as for the rest of the query, i don't really know; i don't recall seeing any questions of that nature, but you could try suikosource to see if anyone has asked any or all of these before.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

For instance, just how many different types of dragons are there? I know for sure that we've seen Black, Red, Green, and White Dragons about, but are there more? I know that White ones are rare. Is there an aspect of the DnD dragons in here, that there are several different colours of dragons, each with their own tempraments and abilities?


From the little we've seen of dragons thus far, their colouring has little effect on their tempraments or abilites. All Dragon Knight dragons are, for example, tame and loyal including the red Trash, the black ...Black, and the white Bright. We know that White Dragons are rare and judging by Black's less than original name, it seems likely that Black Dragons are possibly similarly uncommon. Green Dragons seem to be the most numerous.

In terms of abilites, no dragons seem to show any major difference in terms of 'special powers' and the like, although you could base any speculation about this on off-shoots of the dragon family, including Wyverns and the like.

Quote:

I've also wondered about the size of the dragons, that is, just how big are they? I haven't seen the character animation for Bright in Suikoden III, so that might have answered my question if I'd seen it. I'd have to assume that they are somewhat large though, since Black in Suikoden I was able to carry seven people with him to Magician's Island. Was Bright in Suikoden III just big enough for Futch to ride on, or was he quite a bit larger? I have an image of something maybe...elephant size or so, not the gargantuan beasts that one sees in many movies. Thoughts on dragon size?


Well, we know that Black carries a large basket on his back, large enough to carry seven people, as stated, with him. We have to consider that Black would need a wide area around his wings clear so as to allow him to fly without smacking everyone in the face with giant flaps of dragon hide.

As Bright is quite possibly older than Black was at the time of his death, it seems likely that Bright would be of a similar size to Black but that's just a reasonable conclusion reached based on the similar sizes of both Trash and Black.

Quote:

Does every dragon have some kind of magical breath attack too? In Suikoden I, the Dragon Knight unit has a fleet of dragons bombarding the enemy with some kind of magic. Is this a natural ability of dragons, or is it rune based? Or perhaps every dragon is born with a rune that lets him conjure up such magic?


Judging by the fact that a small area like Goya (it really is quite miniscule) can maintain a function military based on Dragon Knights alone and also retain some semblence of independence (Goya has never been conquered) it's likely that dragons have some form of magical prowess. Whether this ability in innate as in magic breath or rune based is up for debate. Although, the fact that dragons are not from 'our' dimensional plane but are from The World of Wings and Scales may indicate that dragon breath is a different form of magic from the runic based magic of 'our' world which would be uncontrolable/deadly to dragons without the power of the Dragon Rune. If all 27 True Runes exist on the main Suikoden dimensional plane, that would make it extremely unlikely that runes exist outside 'our' dimension so I'd have to say that dragon magic is a natural ability.

Quote:

There is much more I would like to find out too, such as the depth of the bond between Knight and Dragon, if it is telepathic and so forth. Also, I'd be very interested in learning the battle tactics of the Dragon Knights and such, though I'm sure those haven't been confirmed anywhere.


There's no indication that the bond between Dragon Knight and dragon goes beyong the emotional level. For example, no Knight or dragon has ever be shown to know any information about his master/steed without any information at hand. There doesn't seem to be anything to support the notion of telepathic bonding as no dragon and indeed, no human has been shown in the Suikoden world to have even the smallest hint of telepathic abilites.

As for tactics... when your army is made entirely of large magical dragons being ridden by expert spearmen, you don't need tactics. :P

Hope that helps.
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Kalidor

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

As for tactics... when your army is made entirely of large magical dragons being ridden by expert spearmen, you don't need tactics.


In regards to that, is there any other sort of aerial cavalry in the Suikoden world that could match the Dragon Knights? I've heard something about insect riders from Suikoden III, but my not playing Suikoden III is coming back to haunt me yet again. Would these flying insects have any sort of advantage over the dragons, any magical abilities and such? I somehow think not, flying insects seem somewhat, well, frail to me, in comparison to dragons. Perhaps I'm wrong though, and these bugs are giant :P

Also, in further regards to the battle tactics, it would seem that dragons are some what magic resistant, at least going off of Suikoden I's battles. The Dragon Knights are only repulsed by an archery attack, and demolish both infantry and magicians. Not much to go on, but it's something. Also, we have Black being blasted by Windy. Granted, the blast did knock him out of the sky, but he was still in good enough shape to put himself between the ground and Futch. We must also take into account that Windy is one of the most powerful mages in the world, surely better than any army regiment of mages would be. More stuff to ponder over anyway.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think it has been stated (though I might be getting confused with another branch of fiction that contains dragons) that magical attacks are generally ineffective either on dragon hide or because dragons possess that innate magical ability. It'd be like trying to drown a fish in water as it were. Windy's uber-blast-of-doom would be an example of killing the fish by blasting it with a power hose.

Insects are generally frail, even when they're the large rideable variety. However, I'd assume the tactic used by riders of those particular beasts would be to take out the Dragon Knight, not the dragon. It wouldn't stop a dragon from attacking the enemy, but dragons alone cannot claim victory for Goya anymore than a horse could've on battlefields in the middle ages. Another 'aerial force' to consider would be griffons, which while wild in the southern areas of the Suikoden world (Dunan and so on) could possibly be tameable, perhaps up in the Northern Outlands perhaps?
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

that sounds more like a dungeons and dragons aspect, rather than suikoden-if magic doesn't affect them, then black wouldn't have been knocked from the sky by windy. the hide may be tough, but i doubt there's magical reinforcement of it; they're vulnerable like any other creature.
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Kalidor

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What clan of the Grasslands was it that rode the insects anyway? More information on the insect cavalry would be appreciated. Even if they attacked the knight, I have a feeling it would be, in the end, a vain effort. I imagine that the Dragon Knights are among, no, -are- the best trained military group in the world. That is the only way that their region retains their autonomy after all; Other nations fear to invade because of the losses they would sustain (well, that, and the relative lack of worth of the area without the Dragon Knights :P ). However, fighting is the only thing that drives the economy of the Dragon Knights, from what I've gathered. I think they would have subsistance levels of food production, but there is nothing to indicate any other industry. Besides that, the Goya region is quite cold, and generally inhospitable. Not fun to live in, but the perfect place to train young warriors, from the age of five at that, to become the greatest soldiers in the world.

As for griffon riders, they might make an interesting foe to the Dragon Knights. Griffons would likely be smaller and more maneuverable in the air, but I don't think that would match up against a Dragon Knight and his mount. The size and power of the dragon and the military prowess of the Knight would still be too much. Of course, if there were enough griffon riders, it might be a different story, but out of the 3000 that inhabit the Dragon's Den, I'd have to assume that at least half of them are active Knights. 1500 dragon's and their riders are a lot to go up against.
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

that sounds more like a dungeons and dragons aspect, rather than suikoden-if magic doesn't affect them, then black wouldn't have been knocked from the sky by windy. the hide may be tough, but i doubt there's magical reinforcement of it; they're vulnerable like any other creature.


Well, it would explain why the Imperial magicians simply take a beating from the Dragon Knights while Windy, as the super magician of the Suikoden world and True Rune bearer, could strike a dragon down with magic. For comparisons sake, I'm pretty immune to all forms of twig throwing, I'd still be felled if someone dropped an oak tree on me, however.

Anyway, Dragon Knights are generally competent fighters but not the best in the world. Their niche is their unique handling of dragons. As it is, I expect that Goya can be conquered by a competent army that utilises archers to their best effect. The reason why this hasn't been done to our knowledge? Probably too costly, you're bound to lose units and besides, what's the point of destroying the army of a region when the only reason to want to claim ownership of it is for the army you just wiped from the face of the earth?
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

it was the clan from le buque *i don't know the name, unfortunately;* they were a vassal *slave* state of harmonia.

it isn't just the dragons that help keep the knights independant; geography comes into play too; the area is accessible by cave or flight only, limiting enemy attacks from said cave or the air. few have access to anything flight capable in great numbers, so unless harmonia orders an invasion by le buques' forces or harnesses griffons/hippogriffs, invasion of the knight's den is unlikely.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

As a staple, all dragons in suikoden like every other dragon elsewhere do breathe fire. I believe that's sort of a standard thing for dragons... As for whether dragons own a rune or if it's their innate ability, this question can only be answered when the questions about the origins of unique runes are answered.

What exactly are the command runes? And the unique ones like Falcon, Shrike, Borondo Hawk, Isshin, Ripple, Phoenix etc. How were they created? They're more like skills a particular character owns. Such as Falcon. It's supposed to be the unique attack of the falcon style fencing. So if these command runes are merely a way to manifest a character's ability and unique attack, then the spreading flame rune would be similar. Which means, dragons have the innate ability to blow fire.

Similarly, all the other "monsters" have their unique skill of attack.
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Kalidor

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

John Layfield wrote:
Anyway, Dragon Knights are generally competent fighters but not the best in the world. Their niche is their unique handling of dragons.


I would agree with you on the point that their niche is in handling dragons, and best utilizing the dragons and their abilities in combat. That is the very thing that makes them Dragon Knights after all. I have to wonder though, whether or not the Dragon Knights are more than just competent fighters. They are trained from the age of five onwards, in handling their dragon, yes, but also in fighting. Plus, the whole society is geared towards militarism, as it is the one thing that sustains them. I imagine in this sort of culture, a warrior would constantly be pushed to excel, and this would raise the bar a significant amount. Sure, there are probably elite Harmonian units that are better fighters than the individual knights themselves; however, if you take an average fighter from amongst the Dragon Knights, and match him to a great fighter from the Harmonian army, I'm expecting an even match. A great fighter amongst the Knights would probably match most of the best of other armies too. That is just the Knight of course. Put him on his dragon, where he belongs, and he is a force to be reckoned with.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But that is only based on your own personal preference for Dragon Knights, as I think you well know. :P

You're training to bond with your dragon and to essentially become a team that can fight together expertly without thinking. With that, you have your military training but even in a militaristic province like Goya (which is only dominated by the Dragon Knights because of their role in the plot, the society as laid out by what we merely see in Suikoden I is one that cannot sustain itself. Therefore, it is only sensible to assume that the Dragon Knights are 'simply' a very valuable military branch of a region lacking in anyother advantages. Hence the importance placed on them.) this doesn't make them super-fighters.

Every example of a Dragon Knight's fighting so far has shown them to capable but not neccessarly elite. There is nothing to suggest they are the equal, and definatly not the superior, of elite soldiers from any nation be it Toran, Dunan, Harmonia or Falena.
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Kalidor

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tis true, I realise that I am a fan of the Dragon Knights. You've caught me and I can say nothing against it :P

I also agree with the fact that the elite of units from the major nations could defeat the great Dragon Knights as well. What I meant more is that if you drew someone that was considered a great fighter from the ranks of a well trained cavalry division from Jowston, he would likely match up against an average fighter of the Dragon Knights. A great warrior among the Knights would likely be much better than a great warrior drawn from the ranks of the general cavalary, etc. However, if you threw someone like a Nash or Geddoe against a Dragon Knight though, you would likely end up with a very sore Knight.

With that in mind though, how do you think Futch (Suikoden III) would fare against someone like...I don't know, maybe Anita (Suikoden II)? I'm trying to think of someone that isn't a super stand out fighter, and Anita is the best I can do, give me someone better if you can. Then, what about Futch against someone like Percival (Suikoden III) one of the seven Zexen Knights?
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kalidor wrote:
With that in mind though, how do you think Futch (Suikoden III) would fare against someone like...I don't know, maybe Anita (Suikoden II)? I'm trying to think of someone that isn't a super stand out fighter, and Anita is the best I can do, give me someone better if you can. Then, what about Futch against someone like Percival (Suikoden III) one of the seven Zexen Knights?


Futch, as of Suikoden III, would be a pretty bad example to use as by then, he's more of a Humphrey Mintz/Imperial swordsman than a Dragon Knight spearman. I'd be more inclined to use Milia as the Dragon Knight representative, although as a former Vice-Commander of the Dragon Knight's (and current Commander and bearer of the Dragon Rune) she's obviously an exceptional fighter rather than a Dragon Knight 'grunt', as it were.

That said, I think Milia could take down someone like Percival, while Futch, even with his Imperial Swordsman skills, would be defeated in battle by the 'Swordsman of Gale'.
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Judging by what I've seen I wouldn't be surprised to see a small Griffons unit but not a full blown cavalry unit because griffons seem to be a proud race that wouldn't want to lower themselves. I think that there may be subtle differences in the natural tendencies of the dragons based on their color but that may stem from a certain color being outcast to some extent. But thats inferring a bit on the story so its not really very based in factual events.

O and I saw earlier asking about Le Buque. The people were conquered and became Harmonian and at the end of Suikoden 3 the remained as such so they technically are Harmonians. Mantors(big bugs) seem to be more agile in flight but dragons would appear to be more resilient and strong. They were once called the Carne Clan when they were a part of the Grasslands.

So maybe this isn't the place for this but just to inquire a completely random kind of pointless question; Were you to have a dragon what color would you prefer it to be? Why? Name?
In my case I would like a black dragon. Something about it just seems to fit for me. I would like to be able to sneak at night with my dragon and be kind of a ninja knight, of sorts. The name would be Hod because Hod is the norse god of darkness and brought down the seemingly invincible with a single shot (and is blind). Seems like he has a good name and I may borrow it. :wink:
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