Difficulty in Games (particularly RPG's)

[Cedric]

I see this term pop up a lot when it comes to RPG's and even games in general. But the term itself mostly applies to RPG's since only the most diligent players can sit and play a game for a total of over 24 hours. There are always complaints that "games aren't as hard or as challenging as they used to be". I'm sure everyone here has been a part of that argument one way or another. People get more out of a challenging game rather than one they easily breezed through. Hence some people say that when they finish a game in record time, it needs to be much harder.

So what I'd like to know is this:

What is your definition of "difficult" or "challenging" when it comes to the games you play?

What games do you consider too easy and why?

What games do you consider perfectly fine in the balance of simple and challenging and why.

What games are too hard for you. Trust me, everyone has them. Why was it hard?


You don't need to answer everything, but any type of input would be fine.
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[Ranadiel]

[butters]

[St. Ajora]

[Sage]

I define difficult with several relativistic ideas. Note that when I say "too easy/difficult" I mean too easy/difficult for me. RPG's: If I can just sit down and play through it without doing any leveling up, then it's too easy. If I face the possibility of dying, then it's ok. If I die every few seconds or can't beat an enemy/boss/something after gaining many levels, then it's too difficult. If I can gain dozens of levels without much trouble and breeze through the game, then the level up mechanism's messed up, but that doesn't play into difficulty for me too often because overleveling can take the challenge out of just about any game.

For nonRPG's: If I can practice, get better, and move through it more quickly or pull off something fancy (if possible), then it's ok. If I get killed at every turn and no amount of practice (hours upon hours) gets me past it/them/whatever, it's too difficult. Likewise, if I can play it through with repetive movements or no thought involved, it's too easy.

Too easy: Final Fantasy VI, but that's because I've played it dozens of times. Umm, I don't recall any others I'd classify as too easy.

I haven't played any I'd call perfectly balanced, but there are many I'd say are balanced enough. Suikodens for example. Some battles were tough, others were easy and the last boss difficulty (well, excluding #1) is about the level I'd like in every game.

Too hard: FPS, I'm just not very good at them (namely Halo). It kinda irritates me that all my friends get much better much more quickly than I do. I used to be able to kick them around when we first started playing. Now, I'm very lucky if I hit double digit kills in a 50 kill round. I have yet to play an RPG I'd classify here.

Regarding Breath of Fire, it wasn't that hard for me. The only battle that gave me trouble was the one when you had Hero, Nina, & Bo and fighting someone in the robot. It's not the battles are all that hard, they're just horribly long. It ends up depending on your patience and endurance rather than skill.
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[Fundertaker]

[Drizzt]

Definition of Difficult:
A difficult game for me would be one where on numerous occasions throughout the game there are several time where you just simply get really stuck for a while. Maybe even the 'throw the control at the TV' difficult for some games, but when it gets that bad it annoys me more than I find it hard to complete. But yes with each new area in a game, it is difficult when there are actually tougher enemies there, and an even tougher boss to defeat in the end of the area. Some games tip-toe around this issue, and new areas are not that hard at all. The earlier Final Fantasy's had a good difficulty, especially the Japanese versions. Getting your party wiped out on the norm is never a rare event...

Games too Easy:
The Suikoden series could stand to be a little more challenging, though this factor did improve a bit for Suikoden 3/4 at least. Basically what I would like to see for more RPG's these days are difficulty selections. If the game just has a set difficulty level, then it tends not to be that hard to beat, whether you are a veteran or not. Though more game's these days are starting to employ a difficulty setting, I would still like it to be implemented into all RPG's. At least that way pro's can make a game more challenging for themselves. Also I would consider the Baldur's Gate series and the Champions' series to be pretty easy, and could have used more enemies. But at least they have harder challenge levels.

Perfect Balance Games:
I thought 'Shadows of Rome' would fit this particular category well, as it has its easy moments, and more challenging times. FFIX and FFX are also great for their perfect balance, as Fundertaker mentioned. Agree totally there. Oh the shooter game Vampire Night was pretty balanced in retrospect, starts off nice and easy, and can stay that way if you know what you are doing. And the bosses are also a reasonable challenge so I was happy there.

Too Challenging Games:
Though not an RPG (but still a great game even though...) but Ninja Gaiden for XBOX is very challenging, and overwhelms me all the time. Some champions are extreme veterans at this game, but I have broken my controller way too often because of how hard Ninja Gaiden is. I was never good at these sort of games anyway, but it is still one of my favorites for XBOX, even though I suck at it... The 'Practice makes perfect' saying need not apply for my case.

Also stealth games annoy me to no end, such as the Splinter Cell games. They have mad graphics, but I just can't get into them as they enrage me too much, I like to kill, and I like to kill RIGHT AWAY!!! None of this pansy wait behind in the shadows and take your time thing. But that is just me...

I don't think any RPG game is too challenging for me, no matter what I shall beat them all some day. If it is too hard, I just keep on keeping on, I would not be a true crazy RPG fan if any one of the games stumped me beyond completing it. So there you have it...
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“Firbolgs die with honor,” Morten explained as the logs beneath Tavis began to burn. “We don’t beg for mercy. We don’t show pain. We just die.”
“Maybe we skin you alive,” Noote warned. “That hurt plenty." - The Twilight Giants, Book I.

[Vincent Chase]

1.What is your definition of "difficult" or "challenging" when it comes to the games you play?

Difficult can mean alot of things to me. Difficulty can be having to read a wall of text in Xenogears, difficult can be a game that's over 200 hours long, or difficult can just be some boss creature that kills you time after time after time. Having to make the time to play some of the hundred-hour RPGs is also difficult.

2.What games do you consider too easy and why?

The LUNAR games, especially Eternal Blue, could have been much more challenging.

All racing games not named Gran Turismo. This includes the racing modes in Sports sims like SSX

No one can get through Final Fantasy VII at lv. 30.

3.What games do you consider perfectly fine in the balance of simple and challenging and why.

The Dark Cloud series, simplistic and even repetitive dungeons balanced with the unique Georama system.

The old 2D RPGs, that you could beat in 20, at the most 30 hours, but were filled with as many twists and turns and extras as their 3D counterparts.

Dance Dance Revolution, which I don't play but whenever I am at a theater I see people doing it. It's hard for people who lack rythym, but easy for the skilled.

4.What games are too hard for you. Trust me, everyone has them. Why was it hard?

I am terrible at: Fighters, Shooters, Puzzle Games, Flying Sims and All Online Games

[Providence Luc]

1. What is your definition of "difficult" or "challenging" when it comes to the games you play?

They're 'difficult' for me when they have vague instructions ("...hit it when it's tail is up!") or maybe if you fail a few times before getting it right (assuming you eventually get it right). It would depend really on how much the game instructs a player to do stuff.

2. What games do you consider too easy and why?

Wrestling games tend to be on the easy side. I'm not very skilled in gaming so most games tend to pose some difficulty somehow. Oh, Threads of Fate was quite amusing but rather easy.

3. What games do you consider perfectly fine in the balance of simple and challenging and why.

For me, FF7 was quite well done. It can be easy should you decide to breeze through the game by level intensely in the beginning. It can also be quite difficult should you choose to go through all the minor details like fighting Emerald and Ruby Weapons. Romance of the Three Kingdoms VIII was well balanced and time consuming :D .

4. What games are too hard for you. Trust me, everyone has them. Why was it hard?

2D fighting games. I was never really fond of them. I find it difficult to pull off combos.
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Why don't you drop by the Seraphim Garden and spend your Cabal Nights with me?

[Crono]

[Earthquake923]

What is your definition of "difficult" or "challenging" when it comes to the games you play?
A game with challenging puzzles, and difficult mazes. If it's an RPG, you should lose about 1/5 of hp on a random encounter, and almost di in boss fights. It needs good AI, and enemies should level up as you do.
What games do you consider too easy and why?
Fighting games-They are just patterns, find one that works, and exploit it.
Games that target younger audinces-Duh, althuogh I will sometimes play for mindless entertainment.
What games do you consider perfectly fine in the balance of simple and challenging and why.
I really haven't found one that fits that description.
What games are too hard for you. Trust me, everyone has them. Why was it hard?
Phantasy Star II-Several reasons. It takes WAY too long to level up once you reach a certin level. The enemies are too over powered at tose levels. Spells an techs take FOREVER to get, and most important ones aren't received until level
50+. The last boss is a push over, but the next to last boss what an MFr.
*Spoiler*
Darkside screws with your charaters, and posses them. Makes them attack you, do nothing, do stupid stuff, etc. And the cure doesn't happen often enough. He can also do this to several of the party members. It's bad enough not having control over one, but when 3 out of 4 do nothing. It gets really annoying.
I will say this about Phantasy Star II, with a great storry line, and good graffics(for the time). The music is okay but repeatative.
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If anybody asks about the avatar, I did it for Jess.

[Tonberry]

Oh, an excellent topic once again Ced. I believe I need to share my opinoins on this one.

[Leb]

Pornographic difficulty can be done, but only in certain ways. Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter is definitely one of the most difficult RPGs of this console generation (and one of the most difficult, overall), but instead of making you level up to beef up your stats, they force you to do some critical thinking, some strategizing, and of course, some good old-fashioned praying. I mean, what other RPG discouraged pointless, non-boss encounters?

[Raze]

What is your definition of "difficult" or "challenging" when it comes to the games you play?

A fair definition of difficult would be a game that you can not blow right through, and also one where you have the potential to die numerous times. Whether you die or not is a different matter, it's just that if the potential is there, then it is difficult.

What games do you consider too easy and why?

Any kind of game that requires either little skill to master, or requires little effort to progress through. The Pokemon series is rather notorious for this, as it usually boils down to a great big rock-paper-sisciors fight. It does so out of concern for it's key audience (children), but that is another issue here.

What games do you consider perfectly fine in the balance of simple and challenging and why.

most games generaly fit in here, although I believe that the games these days have been...shall we say, watered down. Most games today are not even close to the degree of dificulty the older ones had. I'll discuss that next.

What games are too hard for you. Trust me, everyone has them. Why was it hard?

There are plenty of old-skool games for the NES that were deemed "Nigh-impossible" by countless people...Megaman (in particular, Gutsman's stage), the Castlevania series, and nearly every game in between. Load up a NES game and you will see living proof that the game designers of the 80's were a bunch of sadistic megalomaniacs.

Aside from that, Ikaruga and the Shin-Megami Tensei games are ones that I deem very difficult. Ikaruga because it is just so confusing with all of the bullets on the screen that at times, it's just a sea of blue and red bullets intertwining in a sea of certain death. With the Shin-Megami Tensei games (Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga), they have a steep learning curve concerning battle. The battle system is easy to grasp, but long to explain. basically put, if you fight dumb, you WILL die and you will die FAST. The AI is purely ruthless, and will not pull any punches ever. If you are not very good at planning out your attacks, the game will be difficult for you. I have spent out a good five minutes trying to decide which is the best way to fight a battle. Definately both very challanging games.
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Rend. Slaughter. Devour your enemies. There is no other way to survive. You cannot escape your hunger, warriors of Purgatory.

[Cedric]

Thanks for the replies everyone. It was really informative.

I asked this because I've noticed that I haven't been getting my money's worth for games lately. Again I will use a 1-10 scale in my opinions. Most of the RPG's I bought lately were brought up by hype. Aside from Stella Dues and Suikoden 4, a lot of the games I bought the past two months had a bunch of advertisements and people offering review and praises for the games. Then I play something like Musashi Samurai Legend which I bought for 39 bucks and I finished it with a total time of 18 hours. Basically for that particular game, I spent more than one dollar per hour I played. That's a horrible rate.

So I wondered why I wasn't enjoying myself so much when it came to RPG's nowadays. To tell you the truth, there were many reasons, but for the sake of staying on topic (I'll probably make something related sooner or later if no one beats me to it) I wanted to focus on the difficulty of these games.

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My definition of difficult:

A challenging game should have you on the edge of your seats. If you can avoid powerlevelling or underlevelling you should match up equally to the regular enemies and probably be a few levels below some bosses. When something is equal like that, the game takes a little bit longer to finish. If you underlevel, it will take you hours to beat an enemy. If you overlevel then you're done in 1 second. You take up a lot of the time in battle, and that should net you a few hours. On my first playthroughs of any game, I never powerlevel. That (and a perfect game) is for the second run. (Third run is for cheating devices)

But even though I never powerlevel, the games lately have been too easy where the boss goes down on Turn 2 or 3. The regular enemies usually take only one attack to kill as well. Suikoden 4 had this problem early on, but it started to balance itself in the end.

Another thing, a game shouldn't be so hard, or to be more precise, complicated where you need a strategy guide to beat it. That's why I liked Suikoden 1 and 2 because the "secrets" were relatively easy to find, and the plot connected well enough to let the player know what to do next. I can remember flipping over RPG strategy guides a long time ago in Electronics boutique saying things like "Take one step forward from the tree in the world map. Follow the path until the sky turns blue. Wait 10 seconds and walk north. Fight the mini-boss, turn counterclockwise to the west and go straight to find the weapon that you need to fuse with ANOTHER hard to find weapon, so you can make a map that'll eventually take you to the real ultimate Weapon" This was my only real beef with Breath of Fire 3's desert walk.


Easy Games

Musashi Samurai Legend. Really, I'm still upset over how much I paid for this game. Possibly my worst investment ever. The game was by no means bad, but it was much too easy to hack and slash through the game. Couple this in with the fact that it was 5 chapters, and you have a game that will get you past lunch.

Hard Games

Hoshigami. I hate that game with a passion: D I can't believe how much one level made a difference in battle. No one thought about the battle system, methinks. It's also rare that you get to save, so good luck with the game. I think Stella Deus has a similar type of penalty for underlevelled characters, but it is certainly not that visible. I got tired of the fighting system, so I stopped leveling up. Of course, I got absolutely creamed by the next group of baddies, but it didn't matter if I won, because the next 4 uninterrupted fights or so would likely be the end of me.

Also Final Fantasy 5 was hard for me as I reached the latter parts of the game after Galuf died. I found myself running away a lot and when people asked me why, I just told them it was to power up the Chicken Knife. But after I got the knife, I had no more excuses left. It was too hard. I really have to finish it someday. I just want to fight all those last bosses. There were 10 right?


Perfect balance of Hard and easy

I haven't played these lately. On a scale of 1-10, they are 10 if the story is good too. This would be games like Disgaea where the main story isn't that difficult at all, but the side quests are for people willing to have a challenge.

There are also games which I give a rare perfect 10 in which it starts of as a "10" game and continues to be a work of perfection until the end. A perfect balance of difficulty and a fun plot in my opinion. I also know these games have a following, so that only solidifies them as Platinum hits in my eyes. That would be Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana (Seiken Densetsu 2), Secret of Mana 2 (Seiken Densetsu 3), Final Fantasy 6, Final Fantasy 7, the Grand Theft Auto series (the latest trilogy), and Breath of Fire 3.

Breath of Fire 3 makes this list because I clocked that game at 83 hours my first time through. And I bought it new for 5 bucks. I was surprised at the storyline and overall fun I had when I played the game. Best investment ever.

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I realize that many games nowadays are shorter, and have more shortcuts (like the clickable world map), but really, if I wanted a 20 hr. game, I'd buy some Adventure game. I also don't buy the perception that it's only because we're older and thus more experienced in these games. I like my RPG's to last more than a full day. What else am I supposed to do when uninvited guests show up?
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