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The Dunan Unification War and World War II
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DocFrance




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:50 am    Post subject: The Dunan Unification War and World War II Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This is something I've been playing with in my head a lot lately. Basically, there are a lot of similarities between the plot of Suikoden II and the events of World War II.

First, Highland is obviously Germany. Germany faced dark times in the period between the World Wars, and a spark was necessary to reignite the nation's drive, just like Highland. Hitler took this opportunity to find a scapegoat - Jews - just as Luca Blight set Highland's eyes on Muse and the City-States with his staged attack on the Youth Brigade (der Hitlerjugend, perhaps?). Just like Highland, Germany needed liebensraum, and quickly invaded the Sudetenland, while the European nations sat and watched. Likewise, Highland invaded the eastern Muse Principality while Jowston did nothing.

Highland also called on its alliance with Holy Harmonia, since the former used to be part of the latter. Germany allied itself with Italy - the former seat of the Holy Roman Empire, which Germany used to be a part of. Both Italy and Harmonia were not significant factors in their respective wars.

Now, the City-States of Jowston are obviously the nations of Europe, loosely united under the weak League of Nations. The Muse Principality and the Knightdom of Matilda are both similar to France. Nobody thought Highland would breach the walls of Muse, just as France did not believe Germany could pass through the Maginot Line. They were both proven wrong. After France was conquered, the southern regions (known as "Vichy France"), led by General Petain, a hero of World War I, did very little to aid refugee Jews. After Muse was sacked, Matilda also did nothing to aid refugees from Muse. Both Vichy France and Matilda eventually came to corroborate with their conquerors.

The Window Region was Jowston's last bastion against the Highland invaders, just as England was to Europe. From here, the remaining Jowstonian forces made an alliance with the Toran Republic, a nation the had just recently gained its independence. Similarly, the Allies of World War II included the United States of America.

After Hitler's Third Reich was defeated, a vacuum was left in his place. The same held true for Luca's Highland. In both cases, a new force rose up to fill the void, one that had once been a friend of the Allies or Jowston. In the latter example, it was Jowy Blight (who was referred to as "Uncle Jowy" by Pilika). In the former example, it was the U.S.S.R., led by Joseph Stalin (oftern referred to as "Uncle Joey" by the citizens of the Allied nations).

After World War II, the world soon divided into two parts - NATO and the Warsaw Pact - just like Highland (and her Karayan allies) and the Dunan Army. As the world's two nuclear superpowers, the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. were bound to fight, just as Riou and Jowy were bound to fight by the True Runes they bore.

I suppose now I'm beginning to make less and less sense, since it's getting very late here. Please discuss!
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Wolf Stew

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A key difference between WWII and the events of Suikoden 2 is that WWII was a *world* war, involving countries on every continent (except Antarctica), with battlegrounds in Europe, Asia and Africa. Suikoden 2 was a regional war involving just 2 countries, so the 2 wars don't compare at all, in scope.

I can understand comparing Highland to Germany (and Luca Blight to Adolf Hitler), but Hitler wasn't the only ruthless conqueror in world history. Think of Alexander, Genghis Khan (and his sons), Tamerlane, and Napoleon, to name a few. Hitler actually wasn't as ruthless (or militarily effective, as GK was never defeated) as Genghis Khan was.......the Mongols actually *did* burn entire villages to the ground and slaughter all the inhabitants (if the village refused to surrender and pay tribute). So in that sense, Luca Blight is more Khan than he is Hitler.
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Beecham

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think you're missing his point, to a degree. He's not trying to say that both wars are on the same scope, but that they are similar in other ways, ways he outlined. He has a very good point, I think, likening the City-States to the nations of Europe; there are definate similarities, as he showed.

What I find most interesting there is your comment about Stalin being nicknamed Uncle Joey by the allies. I should point out that Jowy is a horribly poor spelling of the name of the antihero in Suikoden II. In Japanese, if you say his name out loud, it's pronounced "Joey." So they are both Uncle Joey, in that regard. -Extremely- interesting, I think.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Intriguing research you got here! You should flesh it out and submit it as an editorial!
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El Leon

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It is indeed very nice comparisons and shouldn't just be brushed off. While yes, WWII included more territories, he was more into the Europe branch of the war. Japan was the real menace in Asia and the US pretty much dealt with them on their own, if I remember correctly.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, Great Britain, Netherlands, China, Russia, and Australia also fought against Japan, although Russia entered at the very end of the war, and Great Britain and the Netherlands were defeated early on in the war in Asia. The USA joined against Japan after Pearl Harbor, but Japan's invasion of Asian countries started years before that.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

First, Highland is obviously Germany. Germany faced dark times in the period between the World Wars, and a spark was necessary to reignite the nation's drive, just like Highland. Hitler took this opportunity to find a scapegoat - Jews - just as Luca Blight set Highland's eyes on Muse and the City-States with his staged attack on the Youth Brigade (der Hitlerjugend, perhaps?). Just like Highland, Germany needed liebensraum, and quickly invaded the Sudetenland, while the European nations sat and watched. Likewise, Highland invaded the eastern Muse Principality while Jowston did nothing.


This works as a fair comparison, no real complaints.

Quote:

Highland also called on its alliance with Holy Harmonia, since the former used to be part of the latter. Germany allied itself with Italy - the former seat of the Holy Roman Empire, which Germany used to be a part of. Both Italy and Harmonia were not significant factors in their respective wars.


Aside from real military power et al, this is a somewhat valid comparison. Although you may be understating the Italian war effort which was merely concentrated in Africa not in the more, shall we say, 'popular' battlegrounds of Europe and Asia. Just because no-one cares to note them doesn't mean they should be dismissed.

Quote:

Now, the City-States of Jowston are obviously the nations of Europe, loosely united under the weak League of Nations. The Muse Principality and the Knightdom of Matilda are both similar to France. Nobody thought Highland would breach the walls of Muse, just as France did not believe Germany could pass through the Maginot Line. They were both proven wrong. After France was conquered, the southern regions (known as "Vichy France"), led by General Petain, a hero of World War I, did very little to aid refugee Jews. After Muse was sacked, Matilda also did nothing to aid refugees from Muse. Both Vichy France and Matilda eventually came to corroborate with their conquerors.


Lumping Matilda and Muse together is a mistake. Of course Vichy France did not actually collaberate with Nazi Germany but did indeed, plan to have friendly relations with the state once the war was over. In order to buy time to rebuild France after the war. Much different to the Matilda-Highland alliance which was simply a selfish state eventually being dominated and ruled over. And if anyone starts with a big French tirade, I WILL hunt them down.

Quote:

The Window Region was Jowston's last bastion against the Highland invaders, just as England was to Europe. From here, the remaining Jowstonian forces made an alliance with the Toran Republic, a nation the had just recently gained its independence. Similarly, the Allies of World War II included the United States of America.


Except Germany never actually conquered England as Highland did with South Window, twice. And, of course, with Two River and the ever-hard to attack Tinto still remaining it was not the last bastion for Jowston at all.

And the fact that the Toran Republic was a young nation bears no resemblence to the America of the 30's and 40's. The only conncection there is 'alliance'. So the comparison here is that there was an alliance and in history there was too, therefore comparison.

Quote:

After Hitler's Third Reich was defeated, a vacuum was left in his place. The same held true for Luca's Highland. In both cases, a new force rose up to fill the void, one that had once been a friend of the Allies or Jowston. In the latter example, it was Jowy Blight (who was referred to as "Uncle Jowy" by Pilika). In the former example, it was the U.S.S.R., led by Joseph Stalin (oftern referred to as "Uncle Joey" by the citizens of the Allied nations).


Of course the Jowston War continued from this point against the same nation and was one war, and fought openly whereas the Cold War was just that. A cold war fought with espionage and the like. Also, the nickname was simply "Uncle Joe", not "Joey". Slightly forced comparison there.

Quote:

After World War II, the world soon divided into two parts - NATO and the Warsaw Pact - just like Highland (and her Karayan allies) and the Dunan Army. As the world's two nuclear superpowers, the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. were bound to fight, just as Riou and Jowy were bound to fight by the True Runes they bore.


Not a great comparison that simply boils down to "They fought each other, and other nations did too, therefore comparison".

In short, it's always easy to compare any fictional war between a multitude of states to World War I or II by its very nature. But it doesn't make it so.
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Krawnik

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Pretty interesting comparison, but it's not particularly groundbreaking. Most wars in reality as well as in fiction share a lot of similarities, so if you keep an open mind and don't pay much attention to details it's pretty easy to line up wars like this.

I'm pretty sure that Harmonia actually has a heavier German influence (Grosser Fluss is German for 'large river'), and keep in mind that the Harmonian nobility is for lack of a better word, aryan (blond hair and blue eyes, the lot of 'em). Highland is, I think, more French influenced than German (L'Renouille) at least culturally. I've also heard somewhere that Harmonia syncs up with Russia, at least in terms of political influence.
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Sai Fujiwara

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I really like this comparison, for one. I think that JBL is being a little too critical of the points that DocFrance is trying to make. I mean, Iunderstand the need to clarify some of the facts there, and that's ok, but let's not just totally shoot down the entire idea while we're at it.

I like these ideas, and I think it's interesting all the paralellisms metioned. I agree, some are more of a stretch than others, but it's just that. A nice idea for an editorial! And we all know that editorials are largely based on opinions, and that's what makes it not just a regular news article.

Krawnik, I think you got those points from the Suikosource web page, right? Isn't that something that SARSadmin wrote? About Harmonia being like Russia, without the vodka? lol Well, it's funny, but if anything else, I kinda' see Harmonia a lot more like the Roman Empire, or perhaps HOLY Roman Empire, for ease of comparison. Just a difference of opinion, I guess.

Anyway, I'm not trying to pick on John Layfield here, but I think that DocFrance has some really interesting points here. Definitely makes you think, as you read it. :D
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Wataru

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I though the game designers said Harmonia was supposed to modeled after the USSR. I could have sworn I remember reading that on this site.
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DocFrance




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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While a chose World War II (in particular, the European front) for my comparison, there are still a lot of other similarities in Suikoden with real-life events and places. Holy Harmonia and the Holy Roman Empire sticks out a lot for me - both enormous theocracies that were stifled by stagnation. Did you know that at many times, the citizens of the HRE weren't even sure they had a pope, just like Harmonia and Hikusaak? Of course, the blond-haired blue-eyed requirement for first-class citizenship is almost a direct reference to the concept of the Aryan super-race.

Another comparison I've seen is between the Jowston City-States and the feudal city-states of Italy during the Renaissance. During this time period, Italy had little in terms of miltary power, and thus hired the help of mercenary armies.

As they say, "art imitates life."
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Wolf Stew

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I do like DocFrance's link between Joey and Joseph Stalin, I must say.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree with John Layfield. While there are some similarities between the events of WWII and Suikoden 2, there are also a multitude of differences. I think Doc's assertion that the city states of Jowston represent the states of Europe would hold more water if the states of Europe actually rose up to defeat Hitler in WWII, which of course they didn't. It was the three large states *outside* Europe (Russia, Britain and the US) that defeated Germany.

And yes, I know Russia and Britain are technically part of the European continent, but both have traditionally had the role of "powers on the fringe of Europe."

I do like the topic, though. Nice job, DocFrance (even though I disagree with you)!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah this is a really good comparison. I agree with Blue moon's suggestion you should flesh it out and make an editorial.
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DocFrance




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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Of course, I don't really think the creators of Suikoden II intended it to be a fantastic retelling of World War II - thus some of the similarities don't hold much water. When J.R.R. Tolkien published The Lord of the Rings, many people saw it as an allusion to pre-World War II Europe (with the forces of Mordor being the rising Third Reich). Tolkien replied to these comments by saying something like "The only allusion in my writings is the one that you make yourself."

Or something like that.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The comparison is nice, but it's more like "The Dunan Unification Wars and Western World War II" since your description only incorperated the western part of world war 2, and completely left out what Japan did in asia...

Aside from that, i suppose it actually made sense... But considering how i know more of what Japan did in Asia than what Germany did in Europe in my knowledge of WW2, i can't really comment much...

And about Japan... They were pretty much terrorising Asia till US dropped the oh so famous atomic bombs on them... Evil Japan... My country... 3 years and 8 months of suffering.... Sob...

Um yeah... Right... As if i care...
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