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Hating on Suikoden Tierkreis

 
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The RPGenius




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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject: Hating on Suikoden Tierkreis Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hi. I'll be brief with the intro--I love RPGs, I have a blog where I rant on RPGs. I've noticed in several places a lot of hatred for Suikoden Tierkreis after recently completing the game, and I was thinking of doing a rant on this dislike for the game. Thing is, though, most of the time when I read a complaint against the game, the reason for the complaint isn't all that specific. So I figured I'd ask an actual Suikoden community--what are the reasons for the general stigma against Suikoden Tierkreis? Why do so many people hate it and consider it the embarrassment of the series? Any insight is appreciated.
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Archpark




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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The game itself isn't all that bad, it's amusing enough in this climate where jrpgs aren't what they used to be. I own it, I beat it, however:

In the Suikoden community despite being a passable game is somewhat of an atrocity. The magic system is not only different, it completely undermines the fundamental appeal of the original system. The interconnected elements however loose from the original series of games is completely absent in this game which is easily the most heinous foul given Suikoden's tradition of having many unanswered questions or EXTREMELY intriguing stories alluded to in history books found within the game, or referenced by characters.

There are places we know exist but haven't visited, and Suikoden's tradition is to take us to one or two of them each game. Even if the people that we encounter in this new game are completely unrelated to previous games, they represent an element of a game that we hope will be referenced in the next game.

In Suikoden V alone, and I probably can't name all of them:
1. Georg was in Suikoden II and his history was alluded to in previous Suikoden releases.
2. Falena, the country it is set in is referenced in other games.
3. The queen of Falena's secret police was referenced in other games.
4. The character Belcoot is from a place called Kanakan that has been referenced in other games as well as had characters featured from there before for familiarity.
5. There are three characters you meet from the modern Island Nations which were featured heavily in Suikoden IV as well as Rune Cannon ammunition, which were part of Tactics.
6. Lucretia, the strategist for your army is from Karaya, which is a village far away, featured in Suikoden III.
7. The return of a member of the Maximillian Knights which have been in previous games is in this one.
8. The Chef and his daughter both were referenced or featured in Suikoden II with it's amazing chef sidequest.

Oh and despite the fact that there's a chunk more than I haven't mentioned(and these examples are key because it's all part of the appeal and charm) - I'll go back to the magic system, the runes and the 27 true runes which are the FOCUS POINT of the entire original series, they influence the shape of history in the series - and the fact that it ties directly into the magic system, which was brilliant by the way, getting completely nixed for a system that not only was pretty weak, also was uniform across a good many of the characters, a lot of characters had the exact same set of skills, and there was no growth, you just got them and equipped them.

There is growth with the rune system, and the support runes, while not as logical from a story perspective, served the gameplay really well and non-intrusively.

It's just, we need the references, we need the runes - all gone in this. And while like half the story wasn't too bad, the stuff with that desert kingdom had a lot of intrigue, but the nonsense about the one king? That wasn't interesting at all, a completely faceless enemy - and even the explanation of how the One King comes to be at the end is absurd, makes no reasonable sense at all - it's completely impersonal too.

All the Suikoden fights are drawn out of political intrigue of some kind. War, politics, the misbehavior of villains in Suikoden being motivated by very personal aspects of their past, even in Luca's case. It all adds to the charm. One King is basically a robot, and the cult that surrounds him - I would completely accept that within the context of the old world, where they were just religious fanatics, so long as the one king turned out to be some kind of mortal fraud that added to the political intrigue, the literal sense of the one king is just boring.

I think Konami fouled big with Tierkreis personally in a way that goes way beyond it being a passable game. Elements of the game itself is good, the combat system is pretty substandard though, and the recruiting tedium was at an all time high in my opinion as well.

The funniest thing is. There are countries that are referenced in Tierkreis that they could go to in Tierkreis 2, people that could return - but the fact of the matter is - it barely counts as Suikoden, and I'd have to be MORE of a Tierkreis fan specifically to care about the sequel references as much - that's really they key to it all. The runes, Yuber and Pesmerga, the hope of seeing Kanakan and Harmonia, the Howling Voice Guild, all that crap - all the places they could have gone. New Armes, Nagarea, northern Outlands, Harmonia, Black Dragon Island, the east continant, back to an old country - anything, anywhere but another goddamned dimension with some faceless enemy and really intriguing stuff in the desert country just to have it pushed aside for some cult with a bunch of zealots and some whack final boss. Not nearly as interesting because I'm not nearly as invested, I mean if Konami isn't gonna try that hard, why should I?

Suikoden Tierkreis as a game: 6.5/10 - for being on the DS, it was pretty amusing
Suikoden Tierkreis as a Suikoden game: 1/10
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Raww Le Klueze




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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: Hating on Suikoden Tierkreis Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="The RPGenius":sxmvh1n9]what are the reasons for the general stigma against Suikoden Tierkreis?

Short version: Because it's a pretty shitty game when you get down to it. The most it ever accomplishes is to be completely average. It's written like an RPG from the NES/SNES shift era, as in there's no particular story there's just a bad guy that wants to the destroy the world for no particular reason.

But we can go in depth, but there's so many things wrong with it that it will take a while.

* The story is nonsensical. It raises several questions that have no particular answer.

The One KIng wants to destroy/combine small parts of all worlds. Why? No reason given. Valfred wants to do it because he can relive his happiest time over and over again, but why the One King wants to is apparently a non-issue. Not to mention that this only applies to worlds that collect enough False Chronicles and those that don't get summarily shafted.

Okay, how does he do this? No reason. He just managed to create a huge corridor that can connect to all worlds within the "Infinity". Even ones he's never been to, on account of those worlds still existing and never having heard of him. Did he use a True Chronicle? No one knows, if he did, why hasn't anyone else displayed such god-like powers? No answer.

Fine, so who the hell is he? Uh... no one in particular. If you get the bad ending it suggests that he's another Tenkai star from some other world that also combined the 108 Stars to defeat the One King and then lost all personality and started chanting "One way, one future" which is just ludicrous when you think about it. So why did that One King combine the stars? To defeat another One KIng? Okay... so why did he? To defeat the One King... it's just retarded storytelling. At some -ing point you're gonna get down to the very first One King and the game offers no explenation for why he would become that.

And how many One Kings can you have before it gets entirely stupid to call them the "One" King? There's obviously gonna be more than one at this point, considering that we know at least Atrie and Marica(?), excellent name btw, were planning to combine the stars which would have made them into the One King as well, so adding to the autistic twit of Tenkai we're stuck with that's 3 different One Kings. And yet, for some reason they all end up fighting the same version of the One KIng at the same time (though conviently in different dimensions though there's no problem speaking across them). How does the One King manage to be in 3 places at once? Is it some sort of Borg thing we're they're all connected to a hive-mind? Game never bothers explaining that either.

The overall story is just bland. The Order of the One Way wants to take over the world. That's it. Cue Bison "Of course!". The political motivations that the series is known for gets thrown out the window, any ambigous motivations the characters had to make them not appear as right-out good or right-out evil is flushed down the drain. Instead we get a story that's black and white, one side clearly good and the other clearly evil, you're the good guys now go get them! And there's never any doubt about who's good and who's evil as the game will literally hit you over the head with to keep you from trying to think on your own.

Infinity makes no sense. Sometimes it's seperate dimensions (Atrie's and Marica(?)'s for example) with entirely seperate people that exist nowhere else and sometimes it's paralell dimensions where just about everything is the same aside from minor details (case in point, most quests in the infinity and every single game cartridge out there). It also completely destroys the idea behind the Million Worlds in the first place.

"Good" Ending makes no sense. Atrie returns across the dimensions, explains that the corridor is gone with the One KIng (so there really was only one of him all along..?) and now they can't travel the Infinity anymore. So how did you get here? No reason, just did in a way I'm not going to get into because no one bothered to think about it.

* Characters are entirely unlikable, all of them.

While it's usually impossible to like every character in a game with 108+ of them this one manages to make every single one completely bland and couples it with carbon copying their battle animations to kill any sense of variety you might have had. No one has any unique charecteristics, even to the point where the weapons are completely arbitrary and can be equipped by just about anyone.

The main character deserves special attention, as he's probably the first videogame hero that is autistic. He's also incredibly annoying from everything to his voice and incessant repeating of "We won't know till we try!" to the point that you just want to tell the twit to go jump off a cliff as "you won't know if you'll die till you try".

* Game system is poor.

In a game with 90-ish playable characters, limiting you to 4 at a time is bone-headed. Especially with "must-come-alongs". And to further remove the aspects that were supposed to give you an oppertunity to use many characters at once and make it seem like you didn't just gather people to gather dust in a corner, but make them part of your army is retarded.

To then replace the Army battles with more of the incessant random encounter type battles is just mind boggling. There's no sense of a war going on here. At best it's 12 people fighting 12 other people. And this battle-system was never Suikodens crowning achievement to begin with, to strip out all other parts and replace them with more of the same thing is just unfathomable poor design.

HQ serves little to no purpose. In fact it's probably the most annoying place to visit in the entire game as it's the only non-dungeon where you're forced to run through the whole thing just to get to the other side. Everywhere else, click the menu. HQ, make it a chore. There virtually nothing to do aside from buying weapons and walk all over to hear characters repeat their one line over and over again.

* Average is spelled Tierkreis.

This game is completely average, bland story, bland characters, bland game system. It's a solid 5/10, JRPG 101 complete with the worst voice acting this side of the year 2000.

It also manages to completely rape the series and strips it off anything that was ever unique about it and to further compound the insult to fans Konami insists on mentioning it in conjunction with the real series, which should make any fan worried for Suikoden VI and what influence Tierkreis will be allowed to have on it.

And btw, why Tierkreis? There's nothing related to Zodiac here? Oh... you just picked a word in german you thought sounded nifty? Gotcha.
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kenren




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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My opinion is that everyone here is mostly an original suikoden loyalist, they love the game because its good and they grew up with it. In comparison, Tierkreis is like an upstart noble trying to take the king's throne.
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Gil-galad

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Upstart Noble" is quite a bit of an overstatement. More like an overzealous young nephew who thinks he's better than the king, when actually he doesn't really know what the fuck he's doing.
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kenren




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

lol
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The RPGenius




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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hm. Thank you for the responses; they were more detailed than I was expecting, but that's certainly a good thing. That will definitely help me with my rant. Gracias.
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