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Gremio Hatefest
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UberPendragon




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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I actually wonder if the reason a lot of players dislike his personality is because the maternal role he plays makes them feel uncomfortable. He's not flamboyant or effeminate but that maternal role being played by a man is a little bit taboo in society today.
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's a good point, but sad really in this day and age. You'd think people could be more open. I'm personally not bothered by nurturing qualities being shown by a man. I think it's bad to label them exclusively as feminine, just as physical proficiency isn't exclusively masculine. Characters that "cross the lines" seem more developed and appealing to me. I'm not too fond of the cookie cutter assignments of "gender roles," because I feel that limits a character's growth.

That said, I'm glad that Gremio's personality was more balanced. His nagging was a bit much, but in a way he would've been lacking something without it. He's one of the few characters that seem "real" to me.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I found Gremio to be a bit annoying, but I didn't hate him. Lulu, I hate, Gremio, I dislike.
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TruePerception

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="UberPendragon":1j80gold]I actually wonder if the reason a lot of players dislike his personality is because the maternal role he plays makes them feel uncomfortable. He's not flamboyant or effeminate but that maternal role being played by a man is a little bit taboo in society today.


Taboo? Maybe in the 80s when they made Three Men and a Baby. :roll:

He was intentionally made to be annoying, but in a way so that you would feel ashamed of that annoyance once he died. For me, of all the character flaws, it was the nagging/whining. The nurturing wasn't so bad. The housekeeper/cook bit was actually interesting, I think. Very normal, I would say, since militaries have cooks and woodsman/survivalist types tend to cook for themselves, as a means of being able to survive. Being a former member of Teo's unit, it would be expected that he would have decent survival skills.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="TruePerception":lz3wc0p9]

Taboo? Maybe in the 80s when they made Three Men and a Baby. :roll:

He was intentionally made to be annoying, but in a way so that you would feel ashamed of that annoyance once he died. For me, of all the character flaws, it was the nagging/whining. The nurturing wasn't so bad. The housekeeper/cook bit was actually interesting, I think. Very normal, I would say, since militaries have cooks and woodsman/survivalist types tend to cook for themselves, as a means of being able to survive. Being a former member of Teo's unit, it would be expected that he would have decent survival skills.


I know no ones going to openly admit to homophobia but when you look at the facts homosexuality is still widely shunned in our society. In movies, tv shows, video games and even books they are fit into certain specific non offensive stereo-types unless of course the purpose is to offend. Gremio being non stereo typical not masculine or effeminate playing a maternal role without falling into annoying flamboyant stereo types. I think this is the root of peoples problems with him. I'm replaying through now and Gremio is not a whiner. He often wants whatever is safest for Tir but thats just his natural maternal instinct. That's all part of the nurturing and the protectiveness. At least he isn't like Nanami who think Riou can't survive without her saving his butt...
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Agreed. It's refreshing to see characters that aren't stereotypes.

I'd say he nagged more than whined, but that faded as the game went on and his character developed. I didn't like him much at first, but didn't hate him either. But each time I play it again he grows on me a little more.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's rather offensive of you to suggest, that everyone doesn't like Gremio because they are homophobic! Especially since a man taking a parental role is not (necessarily) gay. There are many men these days who take on the role of single parent and aren't gay. What of the families where the mom died in child birth, or due to some accident? What of the fathers who claim custody due to the mom having a substance abuse problem? I actually doubt, very higly, that many people dislike him for the situation that you described. This is the new millenium. Gay and lesbian pride, movies, themes, etc. are everywhere. A lot of states are acknowledging same sex marriages, and it only seems to be extremely christian that are against it. Though there are still issues and people against homosexuality, it is not such a big problem as this. I dislike Gremio for the same reasons I didn't like Nanami. Weak and annoying. Is Nanami bending the norms of gender stereotyping? No.

Edit: To further suffocate your argument, I was never bothered by Richard, either. And the general Suikoden community wasn't, and he was far "gayer" than Gremio, but also did not fit the "unoffensive stereotype" of a flaming queer. Nor were people offended or annoyed by the relationship between Vincent and Simone.

Edit 2: Yeah. I suppose nagged is more accurate. It was still annoying, though. I do agree that I dislike him less now than I used to.
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There are probably a lot of reasons why people like or dislike Gremio. Actually, my first reaction to him was, "What the hell was that guy thinking when he picked out those clothes?!" But then I remembered Tir's fashion sense and, well... I just hope that if we see either of them in future games that they've got better outfits.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="TruePerception":1wye7xfi]That's rather offensive of you to suggest, that everyone doesn't like Gremio because they are homophobic! Especially since a man taking a parental role is not (necessarily) gay. There are many men these days who take on the role of single parent and aren't gay. What of the families where the mom died in child birth, or due to some accident? What of the fathers who claim custody due to the mom having a substance abuse problem? I actually doubt, very higly, that many people dislike him for the situation that you described. This is the new millenium. Gay and lesbian pride, movies, themes, etc. are everywhere. A lot of states are acknowledging same sex marriages, and it only seems to be extremely christian that are against it. Though there are still issues and people against homosexuality, it is not such a big problem as this. I dislike Gremio for the same reasons I didn't like Nanami. Weak and annoying. Is Nanami bending the norms of gender stereotyping? No.

Edit: To further suffocate your argument, I was never bothered by Richard, either. And the general Suikoden community wasn't, and he was far "gayer" than Gremio, but also did not fit the "unoffensive stereotype" of a flaming queer. Nor were people offended or annoyed by the relationship between Vincent and Simone.


I know my argument might offend some people, I know no one is going to admit that they didn't like Gremio for this reason. I also know the stretch from Maternal role to homosexual is tenuous. That's kind of my point though Gremio does not act gay in the game in any way shape or form, he's not flamboant or effeminate he doesn't fit into any of the normal stereo types. At least 5 times out of 10 when you ask someone why they didn't like Gremio they say he was Gay the other 5 they say he whined too much. If Gremio were openly gay or flamboyant people would be forced to be okay with it lest they not be politically correct. But because Gremio plays a womans role, not just a single parent role because Tir had a father figure Gremio plays a woman's role in Tir's life there's a bit of gender confusion and whether people admit it or not I think it makes them uncomfortable.

Also the assumption that Richard was gay is another example of what I'm talking about. Richard doesn't show any formal signs that he's gay he acts extremely laid back and he idolizes Mueller understandably considering Mueller killed Richard's abusive father. Somehow though because a laid back character idolizes a strong male figure in his life that makes him gay. Also if Richard weren't possibly the best swordsman in S5 I wonder how much he would be liked and or used or if he would just be the butt of Richard/Mueller jokes (as he often is anyway).

As for Vincent and Simone and really all of the Narcissists they fit into the stereo-typical flamboyant over the top non offending gay characters and with the exception of may Augustine in Thomas' chapters did any of them ever make it into a serious party?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It appears you are either talking to the wrong ten people, or just completely fabricating those stats. I'm guessing the later. People do say that Gremio is, or atleast acts, gay, but they don't say they don't like him for it. Perhaps you are sampling a less accepting (in a broad way, not just towards gays) board. About Richard, that was my point. Neither of the to are gay, but are construed that way, and Richard actions would seem to point more heavily towards such, although I too think that Richard is merely fascinated by Mueller due to being saved by him. Really, though, you offer nothing concrete, but continue to accuse people of homophobia.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="TruePerception":3i2epvil]It appears you are either talking to the wrong ten people, or just completely fabricating those stats. I'm guessing the later. People do say that Gremio is, or atleast acts, gay, but they don't say they don't like him for it. Perhaps you are sampling a less accepting (in a broad way, not just towards gays) board. About Richard, that was my point. Neither of the to are gay, but are construed that way, and Richard actions would seem to point more heavily towards such, although I too think that Richard is merely fascinated by Mueller due to being saved by him. Really, though, you offer nothing concrete, but continue to accuse people of homophobia.


Obivously my numbers are an estimate based on my observations and not an actual statistic. No polling has been done on the subject and frankly none can be done because there will never be a way to get a 100% honest answer from everyone. I have been active on the suikoden boards for a long time now Suikox, Suikosource, Harmonina-Online (RiP) and originally gamefaqs. A decades worth of conversations lead me to my theory. No one will say they don't like Gremio because he is gay because that isn't politically correct and most people can't admit to themselves let alone to others that they are biased. Fact of the matter if you look at peoples response to Gremio they say they don't like him because he is whiny and overprotective. I'm replaying through now for the gabillionth time and I don't see how he is whiny, he makes two joke complaints in the entire game about it being difficult to serve Young Master. Other then that the only thing he does which could be construed as whining is I guess wanting to avoid situations that put Tir in danger, which is by the way his job and a part of his maternal role.

As for the Richard analogy, I think it's irrelevant. It's a completely different situation, Richard is not a party force in so your not forced to deal with him, he's not an essential part of the story line. More over Richard is one of if not the best fighter in the game, most people would be inclined to use him for his skills regardless of his personality. If he acted like Guillame in S3 people would still use him and as such be predisposed to like him. That being said Richard is a good example of what I mean. People assume he is gay based on something silly and he becomes the butt of many jokes, and he's a great fighter what chance does Gremio a less spectacular (although still in my opinion decent to strong) fighter.

All in all this is a theory, and like many other theories (see "evolution") there probably wont ever be incontrovertible evidence to prove what I'm saying.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, if no one will say that they hate Gremio because he is gay, where does your theory come from. It is thus totally baseless. You can't just claim that perceived whininess = perceived homosexuality. I can see that you don't intend to let go of this notion, though, and this conversion is going nowhere, so I will be the bigger person and just drop it.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="TruePerception":2ychwa8e]So, if no one will say that they hate Gremio because he is gay, where does your theory come from. It is thus totally baseless. You can't just claim that perceived whininess = perceived homosexuality. I can see that you don't intend to let go of this notion, though, and this conversion is going nowhere, so I will be the bigger person and just drop it.


I've already stated where I draw this theory from. Many people call Gremio gay and complain about his whininess and are thankful when he dies so they don't have to endure him in their party anymore. I'm not associating whininess with gayness they make that association. The whininess is a baseless excuse because Gremio isn't whiny, he hardly ever complains even though he's often asked to risk his life for Tir and the only time he questions anything is when Tir is put in danger. I can only assume that they think Gremio is gay because of the maternal role he plays in Tirs life a generally female role.

So far all you have been able to do is disagree with the points that my theory is based on you've never offered any counterproof so if your just here to be argumentative by all means we'll agree to disagree but if you can come up with one drop of evidence to the contrary I'm all for it. After all the only way to prove or DISprove a theory is with concrete cold hard evidence.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Despite the 'gay Gremio' discussion, I still think that the main reason people don't like Gremio is because he's a 'party intruder'. If I have to say my personal opinion, I'd say he might be a bother because i have other plans for my party. I really like Gremio, but I don't like Nanami because she's always nagging to be in the party, I don't like Lulu because he's a bother to my party, I don't like Miakis for the same reason. If I say that I don't like Gremio because he's whiny, it's like saying that i don't like Hugo because he's too stubborn or saying that I don't like Jess because he risked Riou and Jowy's life without thinking too much about it, and so on. I can say that I don't like him for a personal characteristic he has, characteristics that I don't like in real life as well. If I don't like Gremio or Richard because I think they're gay, then I'm expressing my dislike towards their nature, it's something a man would likely say and it's not very nice. Maybe this is only my experience, but honestly, UberPendragon, how many girls told you that they don't like Gremio because they saw in him a potential homosexuality that makes them uneasy?

I believe that you have a point in your theory, I have often seen guys who don' like other guys, whether real or fictional, because of the reasons you stated. but saying that Gremio's maternal role is gay is going way too far, and I'm sorry if you heard people say that, because it's a bad attitude that reflects in real life as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Just because you can't find proof to disprove something does not make it fact.

Read: [url:2y1i7efi]http://www.duefiumi.com/forum/viewtopic.p hp?f=4&t=823&hilit=gremio[/url:2y1i7efi]
There is only one comment as to Gremio being gay, and if you know Morbid Angel (or if you pay attention to the tone of the post), then you'll know it's sarcastic and overexaggeratedly urbanized. It's what he does. Other than that, no one makes any comment as to not liking Gremio for any reasons resembling effiminant, gay, or motherly. Such strong outliers are not commonplace when you have a factual theory (or realistic, if you prefer).

Edit: And [url:2y1i7efi]http://www.suikox.com/forum/viewtopic.php ?f=29&t=4534&hilit=Gremio[/url:2y1i7efi]
The only possible Gremio = Gay Hate is the last post by Noah, and he/she never said "I hate the gays" just that Gremio's attachment was creepy. The same could be said for not romantic relationships.

Edit 2: Okay, here [url:2y1i7efi]http://www.suikox.com/forum/viewtopic.php ?f=29&t=2661&hilit=Gremio[/url:2y1i7efi] they do talk about the whole people talking about Gremio being gay for Tir idea, but no one makes any hint towards not liking Gremio for such traits, him being loyal and such is just viewed as a personality trait, and not a gross thing. Really, where did you do your research? Apparently not here or at DueFiumi. Likely you will find more homophobes at the 'Source and GameFAQs, and I'm sure there are some here, but not nearly in such a high abundance as you think.
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