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Gremio Hatefest
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UberPendragon




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:41 am    Post subject: Gremio Hatefest Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Suikoden 1 Spoilers Abound:

So recently I've been reading a lot of posts on the forums about Gremio and a fairly general thing I hear people say is that he was useless or they were glad when he died and things along this nature. I am absolutely dumbfounded by this notion. Gremio is your loyal servant through thick and thin who eventually gives his life to allow you a chance to escape. He's a good fighter who gets fairly good with magic I found him especially useful with a water rune. His character art is pretty cool with the pony tail and the scar on his cheek. He's even got a pretty cool weapon, Hatchet is elite, I can just imagine Gremio running around Axing people in the skull. Also if you take the time to level him up at the end of the game when you get him back you see his stats progress very nicely.

The only reason I can figure that people don't like Gremio is because he is forced in your party for the early part of the game and I guess it annoys people to not have the choice. Honestly though didn't Cleo end up in most of our parties long after we could have dropped her for someone else? The only other thing I could think of that sets Gremio apart is his semi-flamboyance. It's not flagrant flamboyancy like with Vincent or other characters but Gremio largely plays the role of the mother figure to Tir and that plays a bit of gender reversal on our minds. Could Gremio make people uncomfortable because they don't know how to categorize him sexually?

I ask you good fans are you a lover or a hater of our good Gremio and support your answer tell us why?
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Archpark




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well he has a pretty sissy personality, you wouldn't believe the voice I imagine him having... but I still like him I suppose.
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TonfarSpecialist




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I didn’t mind gremio that much. Didn’t exactly like him either though. I mean there is often an over protective person who hijacks your party in a suikoden and you just have to put up with it. Given the choice he wouldn’t have got near the team. But i agree that his weapon was pretty brutal, when a rolling pin or something would have seemed more suited to him.
I preferred nanami though coz with doublebeat an fury rune attached she was a force, so she didn’t weaken the team. Also, in s5 if you had someone you didn’t want to use you could put them into the two reserve spaces which eased the irritation of having miakis etc invade your party.
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UberPendragon




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

See there's my point a little bit, because he was the mother figure and the protective figure he's looked at like a sissy, Arch even heard either a whiny voice or a chick voice in his head. He doesn't act or speak effeminately so it's all that maternal protectiveness. Think about if you hadn't played the game and you heard that one of the characters was an ax wielding bodyguard of the main character with a big scar on his cheek he got when he busted into the hideout of a band of rogues who had kidnapped the hero. Even his death scene is dignified and awesome. Saving the hero and his comrades for certain death he closes himself in to be slowly and painfully eaten by the spores of agony. During this exchange does he cry or beg, no he tells Tir how proud he is of him and what a strong man he has become. Way more badass than taking an arrow for your brother (not that I don't love nanami)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Taken from Gamefaqs FAQ (sliced for easier viewing)":29usrfg6]
************************7) The Average Fighters******************************

General Rating: **
7) About this class of characters:
This is basically everyone else, with a few exceptions. These characters
aren't horrible because their stats are pretty high. These characters are
basically in the game for your amusement or if you want a challenge. I'm
going to put them in groups as there are so many of them.

*****7.S) Short Ranged Average Fighters*****

7.S.3) Hix
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150
Stats at Level 58:
HP 615 PWR 146 SPD 147 SKL 148 MGC 104 DEF 128 LUK 175
Magic Points: 6/4/2/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 815 PWR 172 SPD 179 SKL 172 MGC 130 DEF 154 LUK 212
Magic Points: 7/5/3/0

7.S.5) Gen
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 160
Stats at Level 58:
HP 673 PWR 125 SPD 125 SKL 148 MGC 76 DEF 125 LUK 128
Magic Points: 5/2/1/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 878 PWR 193 SPD 143 SKL 170 MGC 97 DEF 148 LUK 154
Magic Points: 6/3/2/0

7.S.6) Gon
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150
Stats at Level 58:
HP 541 PWR 121 SPD 106 SKL 125 MGC 86 DEF 147 LUK 211
Magic Points: 5/3/1/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 744 PWR 149 SPD 132 SKL 153 MGC 111 DEF 177 LUK 251
Magic Points: 6/4/3/0

*****7.M) Medium Ranged Average Fighters*****

7.M.1) Gremio
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 170
Stats at Level 64:
HP 579 PWR 99 SPD 105 SKL 148 MGC 85 DEF 163 LUK 146
Magic Points: 5/3/1/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 749 PWR 193 SPD 124 SKL 167 MGC 106 DEF 190 LUK 169
Magic Points: 6/4/2/0

7.M.2) Tai Ho
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150
Stats at Level 58:
HP 667 PWR 167 SPD 150 SKL 171 MGC 69 DEF 106 LUK 125
Magic Points: 4/2/0/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 876 PWR 198 SPD 181 SKL 205 MGC 97 DEF 127 LUK 149
Magic Points: 6/3/2/0

7.M.3) Yam Koo
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150
Stats at Level 58:
HP 613 PWR 144 SPD 172 SKL 161 MGC 83 DEF 100 LUK 128
Magic Points: 5/3/1/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 822 PWR 173 SPD 203 SKL 187 MGC 112 DEF 116 LUK 150
Magic Points: 6/4/3/0

7.M.11) Mace
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150? Mace cannot sharpen his weapon to Level
16. Gameshark/Codebreaker required. I don't know the code.
Stats at Level 58:
HP 673 PWR 160 SPD 138 SKL 171 MGC 104 DEF 160 LUK 144
Magic Points: 6/4/2/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 883 PWR 192 SPD 164 SKL 200 MGC 126 DEF 188 LUK 171
Magic Points: 7/5/3/0


This is out of the the 23 people in the "Average" S and M range fighters category. I've removed everyone who was obviously outclassed by someone other than Gremio, for easier comparison. This is not even comparing against powerhouses like Tir, Flik, and Viktor. As you can see, his power gets high, but only if forced to extremely high levels. Otherwise it is completely horrible. His magic is beat by Mace and Hix! Not to mention, it is nowhere near the 150 to 200 of other party mainstays. Defense is best in class, but is bested by people like Viktor, Humphrey, Pesmerga, etc. His luck is also decent, but is surpassed by Hix and Gon. I see no basis for considering him to be a good character in battle. Even ignoring his horrible ingame personality, his stats don't cut it. On a final note, I always didn't like Gremio because of his weakness in battle and forced upon nature. I wasn't really bothered by the personality. We had worse...

Edit: Oh, and; Full FAQ, so I don't get the site in trouble:

[url:29usrfg6]http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/1988 43/22904[/url:29usrfg6]
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TonfarSpecialist




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="TruePerception":2gurmxes][quote="Taken from Gamefaqs FAQ (sliced for easier viewing)":2gurmxes]
************************7) The Average Fighters******************************

General Rating: **
7) About this class of characters:
This is basically everyone else, with a few exceptions. These characters
aren't horrible because their stats are pretty high. These characters are
basically in the game for your amusement or if you want a challenge. I'm
going to put them in groups as there are so many of them.

*****7.S) Short Ranged Average Fighters*****

7.S.3) Hix
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150
Stats at Level 58:
HP 615 PWR 146 SPD 147 SKL 148 MGC 104 DEF 128 LUK 175
Magic Points: 6/4/2/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 815 PWR 172 SPD 179 SKL 172 MGC 130 DEF 154 LUK 212
Magic Points: 7/5/3/0

7.S.5) Gen
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 160
Stats at Level 58:
HP 673 PWR 125 SPD 125 SKL 148 MGC 76 DEF 125 LUK 128
Magic Points: 5/2/1/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 878 PWR 193 SPD 143 SKL 170 MGC 97 DEF 148 LUK 154
Magic Points: 6/3/2/0

7.S.6) Gon
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150
Stats at Level 58:
HP 541 PWR 121 SPD 106 SKL 125 MGC 86 DEF 147 LUK 211
Magic Points: 5/3/1/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 744 PWR 149 SPD 132 SKL 153 MGC 111 DEF 177 LUK 251
Magic Points: 6/4/3/0

*****7.M) Medium Ranged Average Fighters*****

7.M.1) Gremio
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 170
Stats at Level 64:
HP 579 PWR 99 SPD 105 SKL 148 MGC 85 DEF 163 LUK 146
Magic Points: 5/3/1/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 749 PWR 193 SPD 124 SKL 167 MGC 106 DEF 190 LUK 169
Magic Points: 6/4/2/0

7.M.2) Tai Ho
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150
Stats at Level 58:
HP 667 PWR 167 SPD 150 SKL 171 MGC 69 DEF 106 LUK 125
Magic Points: 4/2/0/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 876 PWR 198 SPD 181 SKL 205 MGC 97 DEF 127 LUK 149
Magic Points: 6/3/2/0

7.M.3) Yam Koo
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150
Stats at Level 58:
HP 613 PWR 144 SPD 172 SKL 161 MGC 83 DEF 100 LUK 128
Magic Points: 5/3/1/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 822 PWR 173 SPD 203 SKL 187 MGC 112 DEF 116 LUK 150
Magic Points: 6/4/3/0

7.M.11) Mace
Weapon Level 16 Attack Power: 150? Mace cannot sharpen his weapon to Level
16. Gameshark/Codebreaker required. I don't know the code.
Stats at Level 58:
HP 673 PWR 160 SPD 138 SKL 171 MGC 104 DEF 160 LUK 144
Magic Points: 6/4/2/0
Stats at Level 99:
HP 883 PWR 192 SPD 164 SKL 200 MGC 126 DEF 188 LUK 171
Magic Points: 7/5/3/0


This is out of the the 23 people in the "Average" S and M range fighters category. I've removed everyone who was obviously outclassed by someone other than Gremio, for easier comparison. This is not even comparing against powerhouses like Tir, Flik, and Viktor. As you can see, his power gets high, but only if forced to extremely high levels. Otherwise it is completely horrible. His magic is beat by Mace and Hix! Not to mention, it is nowhere near the 150 to 200 of other party mainstays. Defense is best in class, but is bested by people like Viktor, Humphrey, Pesmerga, etc. His luck is also decent, but is surpassed by Hix and Gon. I see no basis for considering him to be a good character in battle. Even ignoring his horrible ingame personality, his stats don't cut it. On a final note, I always didn't like Gremio because of his weakness in battle and forced upon nature. I wasn't really bothered by the personality. We had worse...

Edit: Oh, and; Full FAQ, so I don't get the site in trouble:

[url:2gurmxes]http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/1988 43/22904[/url:2gurmxes]


....yeah, Chiepoo springs to mind.
Same goes for me. It was mainly his battle qualities that irritated me, not his appearance or personality, or his actions throughout the game. Can see why many do dislike him for his personality though.


Last edited by TonfarSpecialist on Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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UberPendragon




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If you take a closer look at the stats you posted you would notice that his level 16 Weapon strength is very high, higher the Tir, Flik or Viktor. He's got good defense and power he's got a medium range weapon so if necessary he can be a back row unlike Flik or Vktor who are relegated to the front. Also his high luck will lead to a lot of crits especially if coupled with a killer rune. All in all I'd say Gremio is definitely above average, but with any character that's going to be a matter of opinion. I always found Kwanda to be very useful because he wears heavy armor and can use a shield but most people don't give him the time of day.

As for his personality being annoying, what was annoying about having a guy who always had your back was willing to die for you, kill for you and when the need arose slap the crap out of you?
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Oppenheimer

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I liked him, I was happy to have him in my party most of the time. But, yes I do remember seeing the back of that green cape flat on the ground quite often. . .

But, I don't mind "weaker" characters. In fact, I was thinking of doing a playthrough with some of the odd balls, like the chefs or something. Suikoden has a lot of in battle characters that are relegated to mini-games in the sequels.
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TruePerception

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, but a 20 point increase in weapon strength does not make up for a 50 point lack of power. He doesn't have high luck. Just slightly above average. And there are other back row characters who do more damage. For his personality, it was his nagging need to be protective. It was quite stiffling. If it were real life, I wouldn't want the guy around constantly. And, a scar and an axe don't a character make. Just like black armor doesn't make Pessy awesome.

I tried Kwanda for a little while, and noticed his potential, but didn't persue it. Same with Milich.

Oh, yeah, Oppenheimer. I completely forgot. He does die a lot. In one playthrough, I tried fighting with everyone, for leveling mostly. Some of the "weak" characters aren't so bad. The chefs come to mind, actually. There weapons have hatchet attack power, and they can use shields!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like Gremio quite a lot as a character, but I understand why some people might not like his 'obnoxiousness'. On the other hand, he contributes so much to the storyline, the game wouldn't really be the same without him. At least, I would like it less. He's someone who gave his life with no second thoughts for McDohl, he's..like a mother! I really don't think he's a sissy. A sissy doesn't fight in the front row to protect you.
Strenght-wise, I never thought about him as a bother...since he was there right from the start, i tried to adapt to the fact that he was there. I always found a way for Gremio to be useful, whether it was in regular battles as an attacker or in the back rows to cure like crazy. In fact, when he wasn't there anymore i sort of felt a hole in my party; it was weird not to have him there. It's also true that I did not bring him with me for the final battle, but I'm sure he would have helped anyways. At least, he would have lasted longer than Crowley....

I consider it as part of the challenge. Having that character intruding your party all the time makes me want to develop a balanced party where that character can fit in easily and without bothering too much. As much as I have to admit that the unite attack with Hero2 was useful, I liked Nanami a lot less.
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TruePerception

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Haha! :lol: I hated how fast Crowley died! I actually found Nanami to be more useful, right up until she died. For the last two story events or so before that point, she started to do weaker and weaker hits, compared to others. And I always had her with a Double-Beat, so setup wasn't the problem.
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The Silver Lady




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, it's really too bad. Crowley's magic is so strong, but he's so weak on the whole! i had him at level 62 and his hit points still sucked...;_; At least, Luc did a bit better.

Yes, Nanami is really useful in the beginning, but later in the game there are many characters I wish I could use instead of her. Also, think of the Muse scene! Jowy...Pete?! lol.
I remember that when I was still very young and sucked at playing I equipped Nanami with some magic that shouldn't be equipped on her, and the whole party kept exploding whenever I tried to get her to do something magicalXD
...speaking of 'intruding' characters.
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UberPendragon




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Gremio Hatefest Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree Nanami was more annoying, for one I hated her combo because half the time she would have full health and start doing her healing dance instead of damage. She was a fairly well balanced character though, I never thought of her as a burden. She does stay with you much longer then Gremio did though.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was happy with the fact that Gremio had a personality other than what you'd probably expect from an axe wielding type. And unlike Nanami, his nagging was countered by maturity. It's true he wasn't as tough in battle as she was, but I liked him more for his value to the story.

I also think that if all the forced-in characters were total badasses that the game would be even easier than it already is, and imo that would make it a lot less fun.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I liked Gremio a lot, actually. I thought he looked quite badass at first with the scar and the axe and everything and was quite surprised at how mild-mannered he turned out to be. It was endearing how concerned he was with your well-being and everything. He felt a bit like your mum, really.
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