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The reason Suikoden 4 was in the past?

 
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Patriarch

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: The reason Suikoden 4 was in the past? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Was there a reason that Suikoden 4 was set 150 years before suikoden 1? I don't see the connection. Was there a bigger point I missed or was it just so they were able to make a cast of charcters they'll never have to use again or explain. The silverberg as a stragigest seemed a bit forced along with the immortal characters Ted and Jeane along with Viki and the Maximillian reference with Gary.

But the story connection to the overall plot seemed the weakest of all the games.

Suikoden 2 atleast had alot of Suikoden 1 characters and the Toran region.

Suikoden 3 had alot of children from Suikoden 2 plus Luc being the main villan.

Even Suikoden 5 had the Georg/Killey side plot that Suikoden 2 had mentioned.

I didn't hate Suikoden 4. I've definitly played worse RPGs and I really feel Suikoden Tactics made up for alot of the bad points, but I think the majority of the game is going to be thrown to the side with possibly an exception of seeing Lazlo and Kyril again in a later game.
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Gil-galad

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In my opinion, the reason the game was set in the past, was because the creators wanted to take the easy way out. Hear me out, though, considering the difficulty of making sure that each subsequent game that follows on with the timeline after Suikoden III must make sure that all information mentioned about events and places prior must be absolutely accurate with the canon story. By setting the game 150 years in the past the production team makes their job much easier by making any new events they create not have to take in to account future events.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't buy that Gil, to be honest. It's not hard to make a game post Suikoden III, It's not like they could do it wrong given they make the story. I think the real reason, is with the staff changes (including Murayama). When Matsukawa took over he decided to go a different direction, which is a common decision when new people get in charge. In this case, it meant going backwards in the story line so they would have more freedom from Murayama's story (Which might as well be dead by now).
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree entirely with Gil. It was sort of a cop out to avoid continuity issues. Still, Username is also correct. The production team was able to create a brand new story without rigid continuity constraints and could milk the Suikoden name for greater popularity, while still giving fans like us cute inside references like Jeane, Viki, and Ted. The optimist in me says that SIV was in the past to allow for greater creativity and freedom. The cynic in me suspects laziness.
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Unfortunately, this is also the case with other fandoms as well (Star Trek comes to mind). Both points are correct at the same time- it's laziness for creative freedom. Although I fail to see why adhering to an established canon is so difficult. Isn't having more information to work with a good thing?

I hate the common excuse for the cop out- that canon doesn't allow for gaining new fans. What's wrong with satisfying those already on board? Add to that the fact that continuity *doesn't* alienate new fans. It gives them something more to sink their teeth into should they want more. I came into Suikoden with II and had no problems. Others have come in even later in the series and haven't had problems either (except for maybe finding copies of older games, but that's not the story's fault). It's the same with new Trek fans- they didn't need to be there for the first run of the original series to like TNG or DS9, so why the need to start over?

The main difference between Trek starting over and Suikoden going back in time is that Suikoden IV was numbered imediately after the game that goes the latest into the timeline. That alone would confuse those new to the series, but again that isn't the fault of canon.

I certainly don't have anything against IV or even Tierkreis, but if writers want that much creative freedom they should just go with something new entirely and not use the name of an established fandom to cash in on. IV at least connected itself to the series, but Tierkreis could have been called something other than Suikoden and no one would have noticed.

I guess the argument for going away from canon is "What makes it Suikoden?" My answer to that is that Suikoden has become more than a simple concept of 108 Stars of Destiny and runes. It's an entire universe with interconnecting character stories and places with rich histories that have lots of potential to grow in a future timeline. The canon has by no means been exhausted, and for writers to ditch it in favor of laziness masquerading as creativity is an insult to the fandom itself.

I think that in this way, IV fit in just fine, even if calling it "IV" was a bit off. I can't say the same for Tierkreis, but at least they didn't call it "VI."
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: The reason Suikoden 4 was in the past? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Even if they only added Ted, Viki, and Jeane I still think they could have made this game alot closer then 150 years so that every character from 4 and Tactics wouldent be thrown away except for Lazlo, Kyril and Simone.

I definitly think they started back on the right track with 5, but because of that 143 year gap between the games they can now continue to ignore the established continuity and create filler for the years inbetween.

Sure eventually they may have to do games about the succession war and other wars that i can't think of that have also happend in the story but they certinly have given themselves alot of time to fool around before they're forced to continue with the established cannon past suikoden 3.
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not sure they'd feel "forced" to go past III, but it's certainly my wish they do so. It just seems that the trend these days is to reboot and scrap the established timelines. I don't really think IV was so much a reboot as an attempt to expand.

Tierkreis, however, seems to be a test to see just how far they can deviate from canon and still make money. I don't see that it was successful enough to give Konami a reason to abandon the main series, but I also don't think V was successful enough to give them too much incentive to continue with it either.

I wouldn't mind seeing side games dealing with the events between IV and the rest, but not full scale games. We need a good solid VI instead.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:58 pm    Post subject: Re: The reason Suikoden 4 was in the past? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I had a lot of problems with Suikoden 4. I really like the direction Suikoden 3 was going, Suikoden 3 was starting to get critical praise and listed as best game of the year. If the Suikoden games followed in that direction then the series would be stronger. I truely believe that 4 hurt the series, it kind of set Suikoden backwards. The Suikoden story line in 3 was easy to follow if you never played the previous games. While fans of the series who played the previous games still got a dose of the same characters. Setting 4 back 150 years did little to enhance the series but I think Tactics helped the series. Whenever Konami tries to get new fans with little success, its almost as if they hurt the fans who have followed the games. I still think the Suikoden series will gain back its moment if it follows the main universe.
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Companies put less and less faith in the fans, which is sad since it's our money they need. I know that fans have no business controlling every aspect of the fandom (wouldn't be much fun if we did), but when it comes to major changes companies need to take our perspective more seriously. They just assume that they're putting things out for a new audience each time and forget that the rest of us are trying to hang on, or they just don't care.

IV had the series taking a turn for the worse, love it or hate it. They should've gone with the direction III was heading instead of switching like that. Of course, it could be legal matters that have kept them from continuing. If that's the case then they should say so.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="JetTheHellfire":8qkr1lzk]Companies put less and less faith in the fans, which is sad since it's our money they need. I know that fans have no business controlling every aspect of the fandom (wouldn't be much fun if we did), but when it comes to major changes companies need to take our perspective more seriously. They just assume that they're putting things out for a new audience each time and forget that the rest of us are trying to hang on, or they just don't care.

IV had the series taking a turn for the worse, love it or hate it. They should've gone with the direction III was heading instead of switching like that. Of course, it could be legal matters that have kept them from continuing. If that's the case then they should say so.



Doing it for the fans can be a slippery slope. It can mean the difference between a good game and a game that just has the Fandom and cameos coming out your ears.

Sure Viki is a nice character but to add her in every game (4 being the worst to have her) really can't help the story. My point is if you just throw in characters that proved popular with no real reason other then to appease fans your not helping the series grow. It just stagnates

Though it did add to the mystery around Jeane, But as Suikoden Tactics abundintly showed, You don't need True Runes to live forever just lazy storytelling. (Though Suikoden Tactics overall was one of my favorite games they'll never show Kyril or Simone again)
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have yet to get my hands on Tactics, but I understand what you're saying.

I get a little annoyed at the Viki/Jeane kick that a lot of fans go on about as much as others get annoyed about Yuber/Pesmerga. I'm glad that Jeane and Yuber have been given some more tangible importance, because empty fan service brings nothing to the games. I'd like to know what Viki's deal is, Jeane's too, but I won't lose sleep if I never find out. The only thing that makes Viki interesting is the appearance of Little Viki. Otherwise she's about as deep a character as Pesmerga to me.

I'm kind of afraid of what they'll finally (if ever) cough up for the Yuber/Pes issue. No offense to Pes or his fans, but if they ditched him and just had Yuber in another III-esque role (or better) I wouldn't be too upset either. The Chaos/Order thing as people apply it to them is way too comic book for my tastes.

Hopefully they'll present VI in a way that gives us the answer as to why they jumped back in time to tell the story of IV. I know that IV hadn't been written at the time of the original 3 games, but from the perspective of the Suikoden world, it could be assumed that Lazlo still had his Rune that late in the timeline. Maybe he'll make a comeback? Or maybe it was to explain something of the history of the Soul Eater without making it the focus of another game?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: The reason Suikoden 4 was in the past? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't mind Pesmerga so much he's alright. I'm not part of his fandom he just looks cool and since mosts characters have almost not story to begin with not having a detailed plot of his own doesn't really matter to me.

I don't ever conisder him for my final teams but thats only because he really isen't as strong as X character when your forced to use Hero, Viktor, and Flik for both S1 and S2.

But he's definitly more interesteing then Gon from suikoden 1 or Kirn
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Same here. I only used him a couple of times in SI but he wasn't what I thought he should've been. Not sure if I used him in II or not, though.

I don't actually mind him either, he does look cool and he's not a bad tank. It's just that if they put him in another game they should avoid the comic book Order/Chaos thing. If I had to choose between them if both couldn't be a part of future games, I'd pick Yuber over Pes any day. Not just because he looks cooler (IMHO), but as a playable character he's more functional. I've got the impression that Pes doesn't have any serious magic talent like Yuber. But then again, he could have a True Rune stashed away under that armor someplace and who knows what that would be like.

Now if they'd give him a little attention like they did for Yuber in III, that would be best. We'd get to know him independently from the "I'm chasing Yuber" thing and that would give people more to judge him by. It would be nice to see how he'd be in a III type game.

But without anything solid for him, Pes is just like most other characters. I feel that way about Viki too, because we don't get anything real added to her story, she's just there each time. Like I said, with Jeane and Yuber they gave us a little more to go on, to fuel the speculations into their characters. I'm glad that when Viki shows up that I don't have to walk everywhere, but that's all she is to me.
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