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Half True Runes
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree. Just sucks for those that get stuck with them. Unless of course your opponent isn't also your best friend... :twisted:
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Korgeta




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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Half True Runes Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The bright shield and the black sword unifying to create a true rune (the rune of beginning) is something am left confused on. I assumed that the suikoden world inhabited 27 true runes, so if the sword and shield have not formed to create the rune of beginning does that mean there is really only 26 true runes? As seperate they both really can't be complete and have yet to be merged and as mentioned are not like the rune of the gate that was completed and then forcebily split. So how can the rune of beignning even have any sort of existance if the two componts for it haven't been joined togther?
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TruePerception

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No. The Bright Shield and Black Sword runes are NOT the Rune of the Beginning. They are more like the Dawn and Twilight runes, in that they are facets of the true rune. Unlike Dawn and Twilight, though, whoever bears Bright Shield and Black Sword becomes the bearer of the Rune of the Beginning. It is not a fusion of the two runes, but more of a ritual for acceptance by the true rune. Does that make more sense?
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JetTheHellfire




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Another way to look at it is mixing resin with hardener to get epoxy.

Ok, not nearly as epic as the coffee analogy... :unsure:
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The_Sun_Rune




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

how about the sun, twilight, and dawn runes?
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TruePerception

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's not even an issue. The Dawn and Twilight rune are unique-tiered runes, under the authority of the Sun rune (and supposedly under the Rune of Night, but that may just be public conjecture). They do not cause agelessness. Only the Sun Rune.
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UberPendragon




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="TruePerception":3uzjg2tg]No. The Bright Shield and Black Sword runes are NOT the Rune of the Beginning. They are more like the Dawn and Twilight runes, in that they are facets of the true rune. Unlike Dawn and Twilight, though, whoever bears Bright Shield and Black Sword becomes the bearer of the Rune of the Beginning. It is not a fusion of the two runes, but more of a ritual for acceptance by the true rune. Does that make more sense?


Are you sure about this? I was under the distinct impression that the Bright Shield Rune and the Black Sword Rune were two halves of the Rune of beginning symbolizing the battle between the Sword and the Shield and if the two bearers of these two runes were to battle (as they are drawn or maybe destined to do by their runes) the victor would bear both runes which would become the rune of beginning and peace would ensue (although by peace I'm pretty sure they mean the stupid grey world Luc shows you in S3).
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TruePerception

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It is never even hinted at that Black Sword and Bright Shield are true runes, except by Lilly in SIII, and she was a child at the time, and didn't know what she was referring to (unless, of course, she meant Neclord and not Riou, but I'm pretty sure she said young man). I don't know about japanese only materials, but in-game there were no indications towards them being "true runes". Also remember, Sword and Shield were not true runes, and thus would not be represented each by their own rune. The Rune of the Beginning uses the two subrunes to symbolize the original struggle, but they aren't the original entities. I'm sure Vextor has something I'm not aware of to add.

Edit: Also, Lilly even hinted at the fact that she wasn't certain that it was a true rune, as a passing note. We can assume this to be Konami's way of saying outright that she is wrong in her conception.
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UberPendragon




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="TruePerception":30e8yrb4]It is never even hinted at that Black Sword and Bright Shield are true runes, except by Lilly in SIII, and she was a child at the time, and didn't know what she was referring to (unless, of course, she meant Neclord and not Riou, but I'm pretty sure she said young man). I don't know about japanese only materials, but in-game there were no indications towards them being "true runes". Also remember, Sword and Shield were not true runes, and thus would not be represented each by their own rune. The Rune of the Beginning uses the two subrunes to symbolize the original struggle, but they aren't the original entities. I'm sure Vextor has something I'm not aware of to add.

Edit: Also, Lilly even hinted at the fact that she wasn't certain that it was a true rune, as a passing note. We can assume this to be Konami's way of saying outright that she is wrong in her conception.


[quote="Suikosource":30e8yrb4]Rune of the Beginning
Current Owner: Riou(When alternate ending is chosen)

Past Owners: Unknown

A True Rune representing the "initial chaos of birth" inherent in times of creation. This True Rune is always found separated into it's components-- the Bright Shield and Black Sword runes, and bearers of these two runes are bound by the rune's power to fight against each other until only one survives to win the other component. Scholars are uncertain whether the Black Sword and Bright Shield are the same "sword" and "shield" from the legends of creation, and no one knows what exact power the Rune of the Beginning bears. It is said that the rune grants its owner the power to "judge war."
Black Sword Rune
Current Owner: Jowy (When the "good ending" is reached)

Past Owners: Han Cunningham

The Black Sword Rune is one of the components of the Rune of the Beginning. Representing the offensive power necessary for "the beginning," this rune holds devastating powers. Much of the power is manifested in the form of swords, and all of its spells unleash painful attacks with magical swords.

Bright Shield
Current Owner: Riou (When the "good ending" is reached)

Past Owners: Genkaku

The Bright Shield Rune is the other component of the Rune of the Beginning. Representing the power to protect "the beginning," this rune holds tremendous defensive powers. Many of its spells heal its bearer and those who are with the bearer in spirit. It is also said that those who are close to this rune won't die even when they suffer wounds that would have otherwise killed them.

According to Suikosource they are both components of the Rune of Beginning, on top of that they even mention scholars being unsure whether or not these were the original sword and shield from the creation story.
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TruePerception

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

They are not THE Sword and Shield because they were destroyed in the Creation. Unless the mythology is hugely inaccurate, it is not possible for them to be two and the same. As for Suikosource's article, I can't speak for the ligitimacy of it, but there is no in-game info to support them as true runes. None at all. I will say in your defense that there is also no record thus far of someone having the runes long enough to verify agelessness. ...wait a sec... no. Too much time between the sealing of the runes and the game to conjecture on whether Han's and Genkaku's aging had ceased while they had the runes. Actually, maybe not. Han doesn't look to be 64 in Suikoden II. Hmm... anyone have any info on the timeline when Han and Genkaku found the runes, and when they sealed them?

Edit: OK, I found out that the runes were sealed in 435, and Suikoden II ended in 460, meaning Han would have aged 25 years after sealing Black Sword. Now we just need to know at what age he found Black Sword, and see if the physical age matches the proposed situation.
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UberPendragon




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:33 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="TruePerception":hxr93osz]They are not THE Sword and Shield because they were destroyed in the Creation. Unless the mythology is hugely inaccurate, it is not possible for them to be two and the same. As for Suikosource's article, I can't speak for the ligitimacy of it, but there is no in-game info to support them as true runes. None at all. I will say in your defense that there is also no record thus far of someone having the runes long enough to verify agelessness. ...wait a sec... no. Too much time between the sealing of the runes and the game to conjecture on whether Han's and Genkaku's aging had ceased while they had the runes. Actually, maybe not. Han doesn't look to be 64 in Suikoden II. Hmm... anyone have any info on the timeline when Han and Genkaku found the runes, and when they sealed them?

Edit: OK, I found out that the runes were sealed in 435, and Suikoden II ended in 460, meaning Han would have aged 25 years after sealing Black Sword. Now we just need to know at what age he found Black Sword, and see if the physical age matches the proposed situation.


I'm not going to say they're THE sword and Shield but maybe pieces of the Sword and Shield that would combine to become one of the 27 Jewels that became the True Runes. If the true runes govern the physics of the SuikoWorld then the Rune of Beginning would very possibly consist of pieces of the Sword and Shield itself battling (as the did in the BEGINNING) to create the true rune. Also your absolutely right, in game is very vague about the situation, I just know for a fact it's official Suiko Cannon that the Bright Shield and Black Sword runes Do NOT grant immortality because they are not acually true runes, they can not become a true rune until the previously discussed battle takes place. The Coffee analogy is to settle the comparison between Bright Shield and Black Sword versus the two halves of the gate rune.

If you make a cup of coffee you take coffee beans and water and put them together to become coffee, before you put them together they aren't coffee, but once you put them together even if you pour the coffee into two seperate cups it's still coffee it doesn't revert to being beans and water.
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Calvin

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Uber's right, Konami states that the Black Sword and Bright Shield do not grant agelessness in a Suikoden II guidebook.

In my opinion, the Rune of Beginning manifests itself the way it does as a representation of the creation myth, which makes sense given the rune's nomenclature. We know that True Runes especially can manifest and transform themselves in many different ways--this is seen throughout the various Suikodens. I think it is very likely, given the Rune of Beginning's nature, that it simply chooses to be found naturally in its seperate components.
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Rezard




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Calvin":19eex06r]Uber's right, Konami states that the Black Sword and Bright Shield do not grant agelessness in a Suikoden II guidebook.
Well... since it is info given outside the game they can always reconsider for coherency sake.

Anyway, duefiumi Gensopedia says that the bearers of the Bright Shield and Dark Sword are meant to fight each, however ignoring that fate causes the hosts to get weakened, suffering fatigue and even dead.

I think it is more logical to say that these runes could grant ageless, but they will never get it because the runes will slowly decay their host and kill them before that. Seeing how Tir ended, I would not be surprised if the halves of the begining also cause Riou and Jowy tough times, especially for going against its will.
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