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Initial reaction in Japan
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Son of Liberty

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Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

To respond to your question, jjrrs: 1. If you managed to recruit 108 stars, the hours will be at least 30hrs. If you are a perfectionist and try to finish every single quest, then it will be longer. 2. The numbers are pretty much the same ratio as previous Suikodens. 3. As for the gameplay changes, it's like Suikoden IV. However, you have no mini-games, blacksmiths, runemasters, appraisers. And you need to trade and do quests to earn money, instead of dropping it for you.

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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:10 am Post subject:

So are there no returning characters whatsoever? I know this game is supposed to be [spoiler:3dvzrpb5]set in an alternate universe[/spoiler:3dvzrpb5] but I still think it would be lame to not bring back anyone. I think that would definitely detract from the 'Suikoden' feel.

Gremio

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Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:49 am Post subject:

more (lukewarm) impressions, although not from Japan: http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3172254 _________________ my Suikoden collection

LTM

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Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

Maybe its just my optimistic attitude towards this game, but that guy ever since his interview gave me the feeling of a purist, hardcore fan. Nothing wrong with loving the core games, but alienation isn't exactly something new to this series' fanbase. And I question wether the weapon system is really complex to the point of confusion...or that the game doesn't specify to collect the stars (I mean, wasn't the whole BIG PLOT behind Tierkreis that the stars were defeated and have to be reassembled? When did this guy miss THAT?). _________________

Darko

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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:04 am Post subject:

Quote:

Maybe its just my optimistic attitude towards this game, but that guy ever since his interview gave me the feeling of a purist, hardcore fan.

My thoughts exactly. But I'm actually surprised he wasn't as harsh as I thought he would be.

I still feel like I'm going to like the game, especially since this guy mentioned that the plot is at least above-average. That's the most important thing to me at this point, not whether it's a continuation of the same world/returning characters/weaponsblahblahblah.
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Raww Le Klueze

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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

[quote="LTM":pis1mkex]And I question wether the weapon system is really complex to the point of confusion..

He didn't say it was complex to the point of confusion, he said it was arbitrary and it is. There's really no good reason why you'd expect a gunner to be able to use swords. Better yet, why would you even want one to?

As far as the story being above-average I'd say that's not really true. It's average, nothing more. From what I've played and understood it's a standard Final Fantasy fare that is neither terribly engaging nor interesting.

Like he said though, the game removes a lot of the fun features and it seems that Konami thinks the 108 stars is the major draw of the series rather than a plot setting and everything will be fine if they just have that.

And frankly, if all you need for a game to live up to the name Genso Suikoden is 108 Stars of Destiny you might as well play Koei's games based on the original chinese story.
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Sami

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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

[quote="Raww Le Klueze":2helsbr0]He didn't say it was complex to the point of confusion, he said it was arbitrary and it is. There's really no good reason why you'd expect a gunner to be able to use swords. Better yet, why would you even want one to? As far as the story being above-average I'd say that's not really true. It's average, nothing more. From what I've played and understood it's a standard Final Fantasy fare that is neither terribly engaging nor interesting.

So if people know how to use guns, they shouldn't be able to use swords? And Final Fantasy games have "average" stories for you? Based on that criticism, I think Tierkreis will be fine. Back to top

Raww Le Klueze

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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

[quote="Sami":tfnwcqvy]So if people know how to use guns, they shouldn't be able to use swords?

Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem or what?

Quote:

And Final Fantasy games have "average" stories for you?

No, they have below average.

Quote:

Based on that criticism, I think Tierkreis will be fine.

I think the simplistic nature and story of the game will appeal to you as well.
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LTM

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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

[quote="Raww Le Klueze":1pd6p8ex]He didn't say it was complex to the point of confusion, he said it was arbitrary and it is. There's really no good reason why you'd expect a gunner to be able to use swords. Better yet, why would you even want one to?

He implied it could confuse people. When something is considered too complex, that means its hard to grasp and understand. Which denotes it can confuse people. Its not DIRECTLY stated by him word for word, but this is what he implied in his statement.

Also, there's nothing wrong with a character being able to use multiple weapons. Spoilers: Suikoden has characters involved in MARTIAL ARTS! :shock:

martial artists are trained in multiple weapons! Military is also trained in multiple weapons! Surprise surprise.

[quote="Raww Le Klueze":1pd6p8ex]As far as the story being above-average I'd say that's not really true. It's average, nothing more. From what I've played and understood it's a standard Final Fantasy fare that is neither terribly engaging nor interesting.

Standard Final Fantasy Fare. Yeah, I see this a lot from Suikoden fans. I'm sorry, it comes off a bit pretentious. It implies Final Fantasy is a lesser rpg series than previous Suikoden titles, and that no Final Fantasy games ever stand out or are anything above average. You're entitled to your opinion, sure. But thats not a very good way to get anyone to listen to you when you claim one average game is exactly like an entire rpg franchise that a lot of people seem to like...

[quote="Raww Le Klueze":1pd6p8ex]Like he said though, the game removes a lot of the fun features and it seems that Konami thinks the 108 stars is the major draw of the series rather than a plot setting and everything will be fine if they just have that.

The series in Japan is called Genso Suikoden. This stands for Fantasy Suikoden(Or Fantasy Water-Margin/Bandits of the Marsh if you prefer). Does the game still retain fantasy elements? Yes. Is it about the 108 Stars of Destiny? Yes. Is it about defeating an evil empire? Yes. This is everything Suikoden tried to be back in 1996. If the game retains that, it can still be called Suikoden. Viki, Jeane, and magic crystals you stick in your skin do not make the game "Suikoden", they make up part of the world of the original games. The core thing that Suikoden has always been about is the 108 stars in a fantasy setting fighting an evil empire. As long as that happens, its Suikoden. I think people really forget this, as its what the games are really all about...

[quote="Raww Le Klueze":1pd6p8ex]And frankly, if all you need for a game to live up to the name Genso Suikoden is 108 Stars of Destiny you might as well play Koei's games based on the original chinese story.

Koei makes games about Suikoden???? I think recall one on Nintendo...but they make their games after Romance of the Three Kingdoms mostly, not Suikoden. And the Suikoden game they did make was like a...strategy sim thing I dunno it was weird. Nothing like Suikoden at all, and I doubt it was popular as they never made another one as far as I know. FYI: Here ya go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandit_Kin ... ient_China

[quote="Sami":1pd6p8ex]So if people know how to use guns, they shouldn't be able to use swords? And Final Fantasy games have "average" stories for you? Based on that criticism, I think Tierkreis will be fine.

I whole-heartedly agree with you. Tierkreis will probably be fine. I think its gonna be a lot of fun, and I am remaining optimistic as Suikoden for me personally has been disappointing since Suikoden III (only just a bit, I still enjoyed the game).
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

Quote:

Its not DIRECTLY stated by him word for word, but this is what he implied in his statement.

No, that's what you read into his statement.

Quote:

Also, there's nothing wrong with a character being able to use multiple weapons.

And if you bothered to read what's been said you'd know that no one said that, what's been said is that it's completely arbitrary who can use what weapon. Meaningly, there's no logic or system behind it that allows you to figure out what weapons to give someone. You're just gonna have to try every single type out on every character that you want to use.

Quote:

But thats not a very good way to get anyone to listen to you when you claim one average game is exactly like an entire rpg franchise that a lot of people seem to like...

You seem to be living in some sort of delusion that dictates that if something has a big enough following it's automatically good.

Quote:

The series in Japan is called Genso Suikoden. This stands for Fantasy Suikoden(Or Fantasy Water-Margin/Bandits of the Marsh if you prefer)

No ****. I did not know that, especially not since I just said that after the part you quoted. Captain obvious to the rescue.

Quote:

Is it about the 108 Stars of Destiny? Yes.

Not really, they're just there.

Quote:

Is it about defeating an evil empire? Yes.

It is? Which one?

Quote:

I think people really forget this, as its what the games are really all about...

I think that you forget that your opinion on what Suikoden is isn't a universal truth.

Quote:

Nothing like Suikoden at all

Yeah, the game based on the original novel that Genso Suikoden is based on is nothing like Suikoden. Great thinking there.

Quote:

and I doubt it was popular as they never made another one as far as I know.

Are you..? No... forget it.

Suikoden: Tenmei no Chikai is available for: MSX, NES, Playstation and Saturn.
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LTM

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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

[quote="Raww":3b8yxbc3]No, that's what you read into his statement.

Its pretty easy to see what he was implying by that statement, but okay we'll go with its how I took it.

[quote="Raww":3b8yxbc3]And if you bothered to read what's been said you'd know that no one said that, what's been said is that it's completely arbitrary who can use what weapon. Meaningly, there's no logic or system behind it that allows you to figure out what weapons to give someone. You're just gonna have to try every single type out on every character that you want to use.

See, your analogy was based on a character who is obviously meant to use a specific weapon using another, my statement was based on that. Now if they just don't give you any hint at all who can use what weapon that is a bit arbitrary. I'll have to see for myself if its really like that though.

[quote="Raww":3b8yxbc3]You seem to be living in some sort of delusion that dictates that if something has a big enough following it's automatically good.

You seem to like to only notice one portion of someone's statement. I wasn't getting at the fact that its "good" because its popular, what I was getting at was saying that Tierkeis is "typical Final Fantasy fare" is a rather ridiculous way to state an opinion on the game. There are plenty of people who have positive opinions about Final Fantasy, so why would you use that as an example? I'm not saying I think that entire series is golden (Don't get me wrong I have plenty of my own problems with FF) but I think a better analogy to use would be to say its just "an average rpg". But you can do whatever you want.

[quote="Raww":3b8yxbc3]No ****. I did not know that, especially not since I just said that after the part you quoted. Captain obvious to the rescue.

Where exactly did you say anything about what the word Suikoden means? You didn't say after the part I quoted. Here's what you said, so you can look it over

"Like he said though, the game removes a lot of the fun features and it seems that Konami thinks the 108 stars is the major draw of the series rather than a plot setting and everything will be fine if they just have that."

And

"And frankly, if all you need for a game to live up to the name Genso Suikoden is 108 Stars of Destiny you might as well play Koei's games based on the original chinese story."

Sure, you mentioned the original Chinese story but I don't see where you pointed out the meaning behind the Japanese and/or Chinese name. What was the point of your quote? I'm not following this.

[quote="Raww":3b8yxbc3]Not really, they're just there.

Really? I mean I haven't PLAYED the game but...a lot of the information coming out about the game before launch mentioned them.
[spoiler:3b8yxbc3]As I recall, the game is about the stars losing and you have to reassemble them? If this was changed then by all means correct me, but I assumed that that was still what the game was about...[/spoiler:3b8yxbc3]

[quote="Raww":3b8yxbc3]It is? Which one?

[spoiler:3b8yxbc3]They appear to battle The One King. Kings have kingdoms/empires. They're fighting him aren't they? If this is wrong by all means, correct me.[/spoiler:3b8yxbc3]

[quote="Raww":3b8yxbc3]I think that you forget that your opinion on what Suikoden is isn't a universal truth.

I love it when you only quote a portion and not the whole thing. Its very kind of you. What I was getting at was the core of Suikoden is about 108 heroes banding together to fight a great evil. Usually an empire/kingdom or whichever, as the original Chinese story was about this. Every game has this element, and the games can continue to be Suikoden as long as this element remains in-tact. The feel of the games and returning characters have altered and been changed all ready throughout the years. I think the only constant beyond that was it was in the same world (which doesn't really make much difference) and the actual game mechanics. No, my opinion isn't "universal truth" but I don't see how anyone can really deny that the games are about the Stars of Destiny...I thought that was pretty much universal fact. Please indulge us on the true nature of the Suikoden titles and what its REALLY all about, Raww. I'd love to hear you tell me about it.

[quote="Raww":3b8yxbc3]Yeah, the game based on the original novel that Genso Suikoden is based on is nothing like Suikoden. Great thinking there.

My apologies, that was a mistake on my part. I had meant to say its gameplay isn't much like Genso Suikoden, and fans of Genso Suikoden may not exactly be interested in playing said games. Remember, I said MAY not. Thats not definite, if they do enjoy them more power to them.

[quote="Raww":3b8yxbc3]Are you..? No... forget it.

Suikoden: Tenmei no Chikai is available for: MSX, NES, Playstation and Saturn.

Am I what? Its nice to see the game was available on multiple platforms I guess, but its not really very well known game by Koei nor does it appear to be much of a series. Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Dynasty Warriors are their bigger hitters and are about well..Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I don't think anyone at this point is going to look at Tierkreis and say "Why bother with this?" and go play Suikoden: Tenmei no Chikai. I mean...someone MIGHT but I doubt most people would.
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject:

Quote:

but I think a better analogy to use would be to say its just "an average rpg".

Fine, let's say it this way then. It strikes me as a generic average clichéed rpg.

Quote:

As I recall, the game is about the stars losing and you have to reassemble them? If this was changed then by all means correct me, but I assumed that that was still what the game was about...

As is stated in the linked review at no point in the game is this mentioned as a goal. The whole reassembling them seems to have been dropped along with people getting reincarnated as objects or other.

Like always there are stars, a tablet and you can collect them, but the story doesn't really center on this.

Quote:

They appear to battle The One King. Kings have kingdoms/empires. They're fighting him aren't they? If this is wrong by all means, correct me.

Without spoiling it too much, [spoiler:mk3rlzyh]they do battle the One King, but he's not really king of anything. He's more of a deity thingie. Actually, if I understood the whole thing that might actually be his name.[/spoiler:mk3rlzyh]

Quote:

I don't think anyone at this point is going to look at Tierkreis and say "Why bother with this?" and go play Suikoden: Tenmei no Chikai.

*shrug* All I'm saying is that if all you need to consider a game to be Suikoden in the way we know it is for it to have 108 SoDs then there's a lot of games that fit the bill. Wheter they're actually good or even popular isn't important.
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

[quote="Raww Le Klueze":1dhnx2vd]As is stated in the linked review at no point in the game is this mentioned as a goal. The whole reassembling them seems to have been dropped along with people getting reincarnated as objects or other. Like always there are stars, a tablet and you can collect them, but the story doesn't really center on this.

Actually Suikoden has always been pretty vague about this, especially 1 and 3. It's hinted there might be something good to collecting all the 108, but it's never very actively encouraged. It's an additional bonus.

[quote="Raww Le Klueze":1dhnx2vd]You seem to be living in some sort of delusion that dictates that if something has a big enough following it's automatically good.

Or you know, that large following of fans likes the thing and will say it's good? I like Final Fantasy (with some discretion) and know a lot of people who do. If the story in Tierkreis isn't up to snuff, surely you could still evaluate it without slighting the FF series. Something like "the story in Tierkreis doesn't live up to the Suikoden series' political heritage..." which would also be more informative. Back to top

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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Initial reaction in Japan

[quote="Sami":3rxa092q]Actually Suikoden has always been pretty vague about this, especially 1 and 3. It's hinted there might be something good to collecting all the 108, but it's never very actively encouraged. It's an additional bonus.

And I said that it was a big part of the series when exactly? I responded to the claim that the story is about the Stars of Destiny by saying it's not, that doesn't automatically mean that I said the other games centered on it.
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:09 pm Post subject:

ugh....I had some kinda long thing typed up with my "first impressions" of the game.

(Long story short...I asked my dad to pick me up a copy when he was overseas during chinese new year and he came back not last...but two Sundays ago.....but after a few days procrastination I finally tried it....though as of now....I've only played 3-4 hours of it so far...)

....but it seems the thing I typed up....well....up and disappeared...along with my memory of what I typed...
.____.

though I have one thing to comment in that preview article that's linked a few posts up:
((I'll put it in spoiler tags...just in case I blurt out a spoiler? =x ))

[spoiler:3af64c06]The preview "article" noted:

Quote:

The new weapon system doesn't fare so well, though -- while combat's as fast-paced as any Suikoden since the PS1 entries, it's very arbitrary as to who can equip which weapon

ok....so....I may only be 3-4 hours into the game.....but seeing that you can "try things out" in stores before you buy them, I don't know why the author thinks it's confusing.
Plus, as far as I can tell, the starting characters (I only have 3 of them with me right now...the fourth one ran off somewhere so I don't know about him)
as far as I've experimented CAN equip different types of weapons

ie: Main character's default is a staff, Jade's are knuckle-types, and Marika's are bows.....but you can make all 3 of them use different weapon-types....this can open up some potential interesting strategy (maybe?) cuz bows can attack from back row but the other two can't....etc.

As for other character's I have had join my party...They are currently unable to swap their weapons...
But then again....I have technically not yet "permanently recruited them" quite yet....so I am unclear whether the above will be true for them or not.[/spoiler:3af64c06]
ERm.....as far as if the game is "going to be a hit" over here or not......
At this point....I think It will have to strongly depend on how the plot is presented....xD ....I can't read Japanese and my hearing is limited....but it seems like the way it introduces the "Thousand Worlds" seems interesting....if the translation doesn't kill it....
Because other than that...the battle system in general doesn't seem anything special...or you know..."innovative" in today's generation of games...and probably won't catch the attention of anyone who's "new and/or rather new" to the series....if you know what I mean...

((But again...I'm only 3-4 hours in xp ))
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