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Tierkreis - filler, harbinger or the future of Suikoden?
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Sami

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Tierkreis - filler, harbinger or the future of Suikoden? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In the main topic there's some discussion of whether Tierkreis is a mainline Suikoden game or a side game - so what is it, exactly? This is the first time that a non-numbered new Suikoden game has been called "Genso Suikoden" in Japan, the Genso Suikogaidens were just that and Rhapsodia (Suikoden Tactics) didn't appear by the Suikoden name in Japan at all. Suikoden Card Stories was a merchandise spinoff that was then changed back into a videogame, keeping the name.

So, while there's not much to go on, can a "Genso Suikoden" game be a side game? It doesn't seem to be a spinoff like Rhapsodia or a "side story" like the Suikogaidens, because there isn't a main story be a side story of. And just what is Tierkreis' role in the Suikoden series, looking into the future?

1) Filler. Konami just wants to get a Suikoden game out quick while they're still working on Suikoden VI, which Tierkreis will not be notably connected with.

2) Harbinger. Suikoden Tierkreis, or Suikoden "Zodiac", is a lead-in to next big home console Suikoden game, whether called Suikoden VI or something else, with notable connections and possible data transfer.

3) The future of Suikoden series. What if the home console situation, expensive development costs and declining sales of the Suikoden series have made Konami wary of investing a lot of money into the series? What if Suikoden Tierkreis is Konami trying their feet in the water of taking Suikoden out from home consoles, and onto the cheaper development costs of the DS, which also has the absolutely hugest install base of any console bar the PlayStation 2. If Suikoden Tierkreis does well enough, might Konami unveil Suikoden VI to follow it on DS?

Opinions? Which do you think is likely, and which would you prefer? Also, due to the early nature of our Tierkreis information, this speculation will likely gain new ground to one direction or the other when new information about the title becomes available.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I still don't see any evidence of it being any more or less significant than Suikogoaiden or Rapshodia.
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Gremio




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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If they are clever, this is the future of the series - DS is a too important market to release something which is less than ambitious and accomplished. By this I mean that I'm hoping that they put a good effort in Tierkreis.

I don't see it as much of a filler, because there's not much around to fill in-between. We basically had a very cohesive and tight trilogy, and the two sparse chapters which weren't really sure of their direction. I suggested that Tierkreis might as well be in a completely different fictional world than the rest of the series - well, if this isn't true for IV or V, they certainly aimed to keep a distance from the original series.

Rhapsodia was in the declining days of PS2; Suikogaidens were just too intertwined with II. It's all too evident (choosing DS as a system is telling) that Tierkreis aims to somewhat more, to be a game which stands on its legs. Besides, can the series survive another so-so installment?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think Sami made the point in which Tierkreis isnt numbered

So i reckon just from that its a side game and not main

Simple tbh - but then not neccessarily correct. I will just have to wait and see

So i say its just Filler for now until the next Suiko game
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Admiral Ackbar

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I say filler as well. If it were the next main installment, it would just be called Suikoden VI (or Genso Suikoden VI, whatever). If the main series were going DS, Konami would just say it. Why would they see fit to be secretive about the fact? They've already unveiled screens and artwork. They would have told us if this were the planned future of the main series.

Sorry if this is topic hijacking, but I have other questions to ask in addition...

If the Suikoden series goes portable (DS, PSP, whatever), with no home console games planned, would you still be excited about the series? Would you lose devotion? If Suikoden 6 were on DS, would you be angry?

I would personally be pissed. Suikoden deserves the full graphical capabilities of a home console system (even if its previous efforts like Suikoden 4 have been very lacking graphically). I can't imagine playing an entire Suikoden where I'm squinting at the screen just to see the characters. It would be like Suikoden 1 on a small television screen. Screw that. I would want them to just end the series rather than drag it's death out over a few terrible sequels.

I know story is what matters for an RPG, but portable games are still worse than console games when it comes to capability, and it does affect the story. Story can only go so far these days...gameplay and graphics ARE an issue. Everything is lower in quality for a portable system...the audio is worse, the animation is worse, the clarity is worse, the size is worse, the engine is worse, etc. And when you can't see characters emote aside from their portait art, it sucks. The facial expressions in Suikoden 3 were one of the best parts of the game...they almost made up for the inferior graphics.

But I have no worries about Suikoden going portable. I really think Konami is just keeping the name alive before Suikoden VI is released. This is a side game, a distraction.

I'm personally just worried about how it will affect the canon setting. I hope the plot is in-character. I'm a nerd like that.
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Elc

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Admiral Ackbar wrote:
If the Suikoden series goes portable (DS, PSP, whatever), with no home console games planned, would you still be excited about the series? Would you lose devotion? If Suikoden 6 were on DS, would you be angry?


Honestly?

When I found out Tierkreis was going to be on the DS, my reaction was "Too bad." and I lost all interest in it since I don't own a DS and don't see enough incentive for me to get a DS. If Suikoden VI were on the DS, I wouldn't be angry (why be angry over a video game?) but I would be disappointed, since I cannot justify buying a system for a single game.

If the entire series was re-released on the DS, or PSP, that would give me enough of an excuse to consider getting the handheld, but if the series became the property of a system I did not have access to, it would likely have the same result as when the Lufia series went to the GameBoy: as much as I wanted to, I couldn't continue with the series.

I hope Tierkreis is successful, though, to keep the series alive and ensure we get more installments. I only hope that I will be able to actually play the next one.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gremio wrote:

I don't see it as much of a filler, because there's not much around to fill in-between.

You're kidding me, right?

And no, there is no way for them to justify turning the whole series to DS. Every gamer, save for exactly one, sees the DS as an inferior system, consciously or subconsciously. DS games never get media coverage unless it's something damn huge like Phoenix Wright or a FF port.

This applies to PSP too of course.
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Calvin

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count me in the crowd that thinks there is a solid chance that this could be a main game. My reasons for thinking this:

  • The game is called Genso Suikoden Tierkries. As has already been stated, the naming convention so far has been to indicate that the title is a sidestory within the title (Suikogaiden), or to omit the word "Genso" from the title.
  • Previous sidestory games have revolved around already existing games. The gaidens had to do with the Dunan Unification War of Suikoden II and Tactics had to do with whatever you call the events of Suikoden IV. Tierkries doesn't even have any places or people that are recognizeable within the Suikoden world as we know it, so I find it unlikely that this game will follow the same rules as previous sidestories. Thus, I believe there is a good chance it won't be a sidestory.
  • Konami has put out main-story Suikoden games before that have been drastic departures from the norm. See Suikoden III, where the hero of the game wasn't even the Tenkai star and the villians were each one of the 108. Aside from that the gameplay was drastically changed. Also remember that Suikoden III is the best selling Suikoden to date, so that may be an incentive for Konami to change things up again for a main story Suikoden game. Suikoden IV also had some changes to it although it was significantly more traditional than Suikoden III, most notably the 4 person battle system (sound familiar?) and the movable HQ.


I'm not so stupid to think that this will definitely be a main addition to the series, but I just think people are ruling it out too quickly. There is definite evidence to suggest that it will be.
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Sami

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yvl wrote:
I still don't see any evidence of it being any more or less significant than Suikogoaiden or Rapshodia.


-108 stars featured (though exact role still uncertain) (in Suikogaiden and Rhapsodia, they were barely mentioned if at all)
-not based on an established game (as Gaidens and Rhapsodia were)
-nameless hero that you get to name (stable in mainline games, absent from Gaiden/Rhapsodia)
-normal battles and exploration as per previous Suikodens (also including battle victory screen), not a completely different game genre like Gaiden and Rhapsodia

We're obviously in new territory. What we don't know yet is what that territory is, and how much means for the future of Suikoden.

Yvl wrote:
DS games never get media coverage unless it's something damn huge like Phoenix Wright or a FF port.


And yet we got our first info about the game from a huge 4-page spread in Famitsu...
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siefer




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yvl wrote:
Gremio wrote:

I don't see it as much of a filler, because there's not much around to fill in-between.

You're kidding me, right?

And no, there is no way for them to justify turning the whole series to DS. Every gamer, save for exactly one, sees the DS as an inferior system, consciously or subconsciously. DS games never get media coverage unless it's something damn huge like Phoenix Wright or a FF port.

This applies to PSP too of course.


I would love to know the justification behind this generalization. I can say that 9 out of 10 bad drivers I see on the road are women or foreigners, this doesn't mean I can generalize that all of them should be stripped of their licenses.

World Destruction would like to disagree with you btw.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, it's significant if only in the fact that this is the first substantial Suikoden news we've heard in a while. It's a game coming out in the series, and it's available to all DS gamers.

If it's not significant in a 'story' sense, and it doesn't turn out to be a 'mainline' game in the sense of the numbered titles, that's one thing, but under no circumstances can the importance of the only Suikoden project we know of be downplayed. With Rhapsodia, for example, there was also news of Suikoden V.

Since I own a DS, I'm fine with whatever outcome. I'll almost certainly play the game, though it depends a bit on what news we hear about the gameplay in the future. Putting the game on the DS allows Konami to neatly sidestep debates about the PS3 vs. the XBox 360 and the merits of a cross-platform release. I suspect that has a great deal to do with their decision - and that's not even mentioning that the DS is certainly very popular!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Tierkreis - filler, harbinger or the future of Suikoden? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If I were to rate Tierkreis' significance of the plot to the whole series on a scale of 1 to 10....10 being the previous numbered editions.....1 being something like Suikoden Card Stories...

At this point I'm guessing Tierkries' would be somewhere around 8
(fyi....in my opinion the Suikogaidens on that same scale would probably be 6 and Rhapsodia a 3)
What I'm trying to say is...although it may end up not being important enough to get a number it seems more of importance than the previous "gaiden-ish" games we've seen so far...

Honestly....I think this is just Konami's honest test of the fanbase at this point in time....trying to see if fans are devoted/widespread enough that they could try to make a mainstream game on a non-Sony system (which all the other mainstream games are on) at the same time....not breaking too big of a budget by diving straight onto one of "the big consoles."
Though I guess one could still argue "why DS and not PSP?" ....and I don't have anything to reply to that... =x

On a side note....one thing that Sami said that caught my attention though....
Sami wrote:
2) Harbinger. Suikoden Tierkreis, or Suikoden "Zodiac", is a lead-in to next big home console Suikoden game, whether called Suikoden VI or something else, with notable connections and possible data transfer.
The bold part....data transfer comment yep...I am not quite sure if the PSP has done it yet...(as I don't have a PSP)....but if anyone's noticed...all the previous Nintendo consoles have at one point or another have allowed the handheld games be playable (or have transferrable data) on the bigscreen through accessories for the consoles...(ie: Super Game Boy Player, that....thing that you could stick on the back of the N64 controllers for that Pokemon Stadium game, that GBA player thing that could be plugged into the botton of the GCN...etc)
There will probably be one of those things for the Wii somewhere down the line....makes me wonder if the Suikoden team might be thinking that too? aha?

-----------------
Anyhow....aha....For me personally...I prefer this not turn into something like Card Stories or a remake of something (alike Suikoden 1 + 2 for the PSP)....but seeing that it's CLEARLY new original material makes me quite happy already and I look forward to this game in a positive way...no matter what it could possibly be inferring about the future of the series.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

siefer, it's because my views are absolute, and the way that I see things determine how the world sees things.

Yeah, I exaggerated. My point is, though, that I doubt you can find too many people who geniunely believe that the DS / PSP are more relevant and "important" than the consoles.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think they're just as important as consoles, if not more in todays market. More people own hand helds than they do consoles, simply because they're cheaper, and with them broadening their target audiences with things like Brain Age a more diverse crowd owns one.

Was Knights of Lodis any less significant than say Let us Cling Together? (Ogre Tactics for those who don't know) and FFA and FFA2 were huge releases at the time.

Right now on the top 100 games on Gamefaqs there are 19 DS games asn 12 PSP games. That's a third of the 100 most popular games. That's competing with PS2, PS3, GC, Wii, PC, Xbox and Xbox 360.

So really, your points are pretty.. pointless.

For the game itself, I'm putting it in a different catagory all together for now. So far it's following the formula to a certain extent of a mainstream game, but that doesn't mean it -will- be. But that doesn't automatically make it a side story either.

As for transfer data, it has been one of the main points of Suikoden in the past. 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 4 to tactics. So if the systems have the ability, who know.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd like it to be a Harbringer, but realistically it's probably one of the other two. At the minute I'm leaning towards Filler because there is little reason for them to discontinue the numbering at this point in time for the main games in the series.

Either which way, I wouldn't be terribly upset if this is the Future of the Suikoden series, infact this is one of the best routes it could take all things considered.
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