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The RPG Genre Changed and We All Missed It
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Sami

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Locke Scythe wrote:
We don't need to reinvent. We just need to make a good game.


Locke Scythe wrote:
We need our FF7 DQ8 Persona3 Tales Of Symphonia. Suikoden barely sells well in Japan nowadays and with the PS3 development costs and the Japanese hatred of the 360 the only viable option is the wii/DS/PSP and who the heck wants to create Suikoden for wii.


But all of those were major reinventions in their respective series, with perhaps the exeption of ToS which I have not played. So it would be wise to expect that Suikoden would also need a major reinvention to attract new audiences. Suikoden IV was perhaps an attempt at that, a streamlined and engaging RPG after the obtuse and slow-paced Suikoden III. It is unknown how many new fans Suikoden IV made (there are some that I know), but obviously not enough, so Konami tried to imitate S2 with S5 and see if that style would work better. Now perhaps it is time to built on Suikoden's traditions but at the same time take the series in a drastic new direction to engage new fans and keep up the interest of the old ones.
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Locke Scythe

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well yeah. In that way Suikoden does need reinventing. But I'd rather have a FF6-FF7 reinvention than a wild arms 3 to wild arms 4 reinvention. (though I still think ff6 is the better game lol)

Suikoden needs to be a game where you recruit 108 people and fight army battles and have a party of 6 that fights turnbased. It needs to have a plot that involves true rune(s).

Maybe it just needs better treatment, full voicing, make graphics amazing.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:59 am    Post subject: better treatment...hmmm Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Suikoden with better graphics, better n faster n meaningful cinematic, better n faster n hassle-free animation anywhere in the game, ...and voiced Tenkai!
Turn-based RPGs, please...don't change it (add spices to it, yeah), and it is a Role Playing Game, right? Not a strategy, not an action, not a platform, these are the elements included in an RPG, in Suikoden.
Or if Konami runs out of creative minds, just let me have my remake of the Genso Suikoden with full power of PS2 and PS3!!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: The RPG Genre Changed and We All Missed It Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Please for the love of God don't remake suikoden in Final Fantasy's image. I don't want suikoden to be about graphics or cinematics or voice acting. Final Fantasy has been vitrually a bust since they abandoned storytelling in favor of these aspects. Final Fantasy 12 being the worst Ive played yet. Suikoden may be the last surviving RPG series thats all about story, gameplay and character development. I cant speak for the Star Ocean series but almost all other RPGs I play pale in comparison to suikoden or the RPG's of old.

If you want to reinvent suikoden you have to keep the key elements, you want to trade up from turnbased to real time battles, I can deal with that. Also their have been a few RPGs lately with Large scale battles where you control several groups of people across a battlefield, this could be a revamp of the large scale battles. Cut the rock paper scissors duels and make it even more like a fighting game with combos and maybe counterattacks and such. You must have 108 SoD, a true rune based story and probably an HQ that grows with your army.

Suikoden aint broke... don't fix it. Advertise it more and maybe push the North American release, not enough people hear about suikoden or the dynamics that make it unique. 3 different types of battles, 108 Unique characters to build your uniquely ideal team, A weapon sharpening system more interesting than the usual find a new weapon in each town. And a world thats remained connected for 5 titles hopefully to see a sixth. Final Fantasy has been struggling to find a way to successfully sequel their games and keep them in the same world and suikoden has done it fluidly from the first sequel. ADVERTISE!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nice put, ... advertise! Yup, I will certainly sue Konami is they change Suikoden into just another Final Fantasy wannabe! No! That's not what I meant when I say better graphics, better animation. I played my first Genso Suikoden fully charged and happy even though it was 'sprites' (correct me if I'm wrong). I have always loved Suikoden because of its story, gameplay and yes, character development.
Don't change the basic premise of the story, spiceup the gameplay, and c'mon, I know Konami can do more with the character development. (How about if player starts out as non-Tenkai star, then with the new game +, the Tenkai is playable? :mrgreen: )
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Whether we like it or not, if there is going to be a Suikoden VI, it NEEDS to be reinvented. You CAN'T keep producing retreads of S1 and S2. Konami has tried doing things differently in S3, S4, and Rhapsodia, but they weren't willing to take the risks to make the full-blown changes that the series needs.

S3's battle system was an attempt at a change, largely because of it's attempt to blend the movement of characters, ranges of attacks, and area-based spells of action RPGs with it's own formula of having a 6-person team with turn-based actions. Also look at the buddy system. Instead of issuing commands to a party of 6 people (which slows down the action), you can only issue three commands in an attempt to speed up the combat. It WANTS to be an action RPG but can't. Instead you get a bastard hybrid that is still largely a turn-based RPG.

In S4, they made another change by losing the top-down look in favor of a third person camera that you can rotate 360 degrees. However, in terms of the combat, they regressed to S1 and S2's turn-based style (this time with 4 people and no more rows, I guess in the hopes that it would speed up combat). To me, each installment of a series should be a progression, not a rehash. You can still keep Suikoden elements in any future title while keeping the gameplay fresh each time, and that's something this series has not been able to do.

And for those in favor of keeping the old mechanics, then just look at S5. It was a great game (long as hell), and it filled me with nostalgia because almost everything about the look of the game was a nod to the original two titles. So if you can have Suikoden 1 or 2 but with better graphics and more expansive gameplay, wouldn't you consider that to be the best Suikoden title of them all? Yet a lot of people still believe Suikoden 2 is the best of the series (as do I). So obviously trying to do the same things that the older titles did in newer titles is not going to progress the franchise further.

If you are holding on to the old-style gameplay of the first two games and aren't willing to let the series take other shapes, then you'll never know how good this game can be.

Someone mentioned "Lost Odyssey" earlier. Frankly, "Lost Odyssey" wasn't that great. It was definitely a throwback JRPG, but it didn't do that well. It just couldn't bring in the modern crowd. (Having poor loading times and a slow-developing story certainly didn't help it either.) Titles like these just won't survive the modern climate of gaming.

Honestly, I would LOVE to see an action-RPG version of Suikoden. It's become the most prevalent form of RPG, and for good reason. It's 2009, not 1995. Technology has allowed developers to ditch the old programming that required them to cut from the "world map" to a battle screen because they simply couldn't do it any other way. Now you have games running on the processors of super computers (at least, you do if you have a PS3) that can handle TONS of data with no framerate/loading issues. So why NOT take advantage of it and make a more realistic gaming experience?

Imagine this:

-Forget a 6 person party. Picture a party of 20. Each with their own AI. (Obviously, certain situations would require you to use less people, but having a maximum party limit of 20 is definitely possible in this day and age.)

-You travel together in whatever battle formation best suits the scenario. Enemies approach and the AI automatically begins attacking based on the formation they're in, but you as the Tenkai star can still pause the action and issue specific commands to your companions (like the V.A.T.S system in Fallout 3 for instance).

-Unite attacks happen in real time after certain conditions have been met. (A gauge fills up or something. The more times a unite attack is used, the less is needed to fill the gauge and the more powerful the unite becomes. Kinda like in Rhapsodia.)

-No loading. (What other reason do you need? I love the classic Suikoden loading screens with Gremio running in place as much as the next guy, but S5 showed just what a pain in the ass those screens can become.)

-Interactions with things in the environment can allow you to set traps and ambushes and create a new level of strategy.

-The large scale wars will be fought similarly to the normal battles, but each of the 20 characters now has their own platoon, and you control it from a greater perspective (with maybe the option of selecting a platoon and "zooming in" to fight with that group specifically in order to complete certain objectives in the battle. For instance, you need to destroy the catapults on the eastern cliffs, so you choose to control the party closest to them and play with them directly in order to take them out).

-You still have the SoD's, the True Runes, and a compelling story about banding together to fight an encroaching empire. Everything that makes Suikoden great.

Why would any fan of this series NOT want to see how far they can push their own limits?? WHY would we want to stay in the past when the technology obviously allows developers to do amazing things these days??

If any of what I'm saying sounds like blasphemy, I'm sorry. But Suikoden has never been a mainstream RPG, and they won't make money by catering to a small portion of the gaming population. If they want to stay in business and capture more fans, they need to change with the times. If anything, it could introduce long-time RPG players to an amazing franchise and want them to go back and look at the previous games in the series (FFVII made me interested in that franchise, and it made me go play the previous six).

Has anyone even wondered why the next Suikoden title is coming out on the DS of all systems?? Is it maybe because the game doesn't have what it takes in it's current format to be playable on the PS3 or 360? If the game doesn't change and go for something more next-gen, then I'll bet every future Suikoden title will be doomed to be released on handhelds.

We already KNOW that Suikoden is an amazing franchise. Some of us believe it's the best RPG series of all time. We're ALREADY fans. The problem is getting MORE fans, and sadly not many gamers these days want to stay in 1995 as some of us in here do.

There are already a number of PS2 RPGs getting sequels on the PS3 in the coming years including Dark Cloud and Kingdom Hearts. If we see how those sequels are done in the next few years, maybe we'll see how an older title will look when you put it on a next-gen system. Maybe then we'll get more people clamouring for a new-look Suikoden title.

Of course, there are people who will play ANY Suikoden title, rehash or no, just because of the name... like me. But in the best interest of the franchise, I REALLY hope that the next console Suikoden makes the necessary changes to compete with the other RPGs in this era.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That sounds appalling. If I wanted to play a Fallout 3 fantasy/RPG clone then I would hope that Suikoden wouldn't be that RPG. What you are describing seems to be a mix between Dynasty Warriors and some SRPG.

I know what I like - people trying to reinvent it into a different format just doesn't work. Things don't have to be groundbreaking to be good (DQ springs to mind). Only game reviewers think like that.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While some of those sound appealing (no load times, for example) I do not like the idea of extensive AI. FF12 had enough AI that you really didn't have to do anything. You were more like a chauffeur than a player, moving from monster to monster, dungeon to dungeon, but battles could be (eventually) done sans your input.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:47 am    Post subject: turnbased RPG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

@Noot, your insights attracts me; still, I want my turnbased RPG, I want my Suikoden turnbased RPG with improved gameplay and graphics without imitating other series. You're right, it's 2009 and not 1995! Yes, I want my new Suikoden where my Tenkai can interact with Non-PCs in a way that previous Suikoden series were not capable of delivering it due to technical limitations; I want my new Suikoden where my Tenkai can go into battle alone, fighting enemy soliders, casting his spells and yet still able to call out for help whenever possible, or he can go into battle with his party whenever I like; I want my Suikoden where my Tenkai blah blah blah. Question is: would these make up for a great RPG that we love? Some may say yes, still some no. So, I guess, I love my Suikoden; with its flaws. And I love my new Suikoden with improved gameplay n graphics n flawless whenever possible - faster loading, in-game cinematic or whatever Konami can come up with.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think there will be many arguments that Suikoden needs to grow with each installment if it the game/franchise is to be successful, but there are elements which make it "Suikoden" and not just some generic RPG. 108 Stars of Destiny and 27 True Runes are concepts which cannot be changed as they have been consistent through-out each of the games, while the battle mechanics can be tweaked in whatever way the developers desire.

Personally, I don't care if the Tenkai is silent or not or even if the Tenkai is male or female, so long as the decision serves the story and isn't just fan service. Data transfer isn't that important anymore since the events depicted in the games have become nonlinear. I just want an enjoyable story set in the Suikoden world featuring characters who you can care about. Or Bizarro Suikoden, where the player commands the evil army and has a hell of a good time being the biggest bastard the world has ever seen.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would also hope any and all games which have voice acting also have the option to turn it off and have just text instead. Some of these voices make me cringe.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Elc":21glcizg]I just want an enjoyable story set in the Suikoden world featuring characters who you can care about. Or Bizarro Suikoden, where the player commands the evil army and has a hell of a good time being the biggest bastard the world has ever seen.


*Off Topic*
Hey that can be a great idea for a new Suikoden. The biggest bastard eh, how nice it sounds~
*End Off Topic*

I personally would prefer to have a Tenkai that actually has a voice that comes out of his/her lungs from the options that we get to choose (if we get to choose).
And the battle system you've mentioned Noot, it sounds something like Star Ocean:Till The End of Time which is fine of course since it is your opinion and everyone got different opinions on how the game should go or how the game should be like.
Of course Konami is trying to compete with the market and all the other RPG games franchise, but it is the classic-ness of the game that makes it Suikoden. For example, the complicated-ness of choosing the best party members, the need for training characters so that they are usable and useful in wars (like in Suikoden 3 and 5) etc.

Anywho, as I have mentioned, everyone got their own opinions and of course, I believe Konami would come up with something greater than the previous Suikoden series BUT will keep the classic-ness and such (:
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: The RPG Genre Changed and We All Missed It Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If the Suikoden series does go in the direction of a more action-oriented battle system, I hope it goes in the direction that Eternal Sonata went. The game was far from perfect, but it was a perfect blend of turn-based battles with interactive action elements.

For those unfamiliar with the game, the battle system played out very similarly to other action RPGs like the Tales or Star Ocean games. The difference, however, is that divided characters actions up into turns. Basically, it was like your classic turn-based system, but once it became one characters turn, you had a limited amount of time to button-mash to your heart's desire. There were some issues I had specifics (like no auto-aiming resulting in a lot of wasted attacks and characters spawning in bad spots resulting in wasted turns), but the overall idea of the system was excellent.

In fact, the battle system of Eternal Sonata was praised by a lot of people. The real turn-off of the game was the cheesy and cliche story and characters along with very linear and simple dungeons/towns. I'm not sure how the Rune system would be implemented and such, but I think it could work.

That said, I think the biggest change that needs to occur with the series has to do with marketing and decisiveness. There's no reason the series couldn't have continued with the direction it went in III. I wasn't a huge fan of the partner system or hit-your-own-party-members magic either, but I think there were a lot of great ideas with that new battle system. Had they fine-tuned it and made a few minor changes in IV, it could've been really great. Unfortunately, Konami took the negative feedback as a sign that change = bad and actually went backwards with the battle system (I would say II's was better than IV's, and the only thing IV had over I was the 3 rune slots). Konami needs to decide on a direction to take the series and stick with it. Listening to fan feedback is great, but they also need to keep in mind that they'll never satisfy everyone. Konami also needs to actually put some effort into marketing the series. It's nice and all that they're trying to recruit new fans with Tierkreis, but I've seen less promotion for Tierkreis than I did for V, which means it's going to be the same crowd who know about Tierkreis (and this crowd will probably not be pleased with the whole "no-ties-to-previous-games" thing).

While the mainstream market may not be satisfied with the old-fashioned "JRPG" build, I don't think that's the problem with the series. Had Suikoden V had a better presentation and interface, as well as some real promotion and marketing, it could have easily sold as much as some of the bigger RPGs (although it would take more than one hit to reach the sales of Final Fantasy). Suikoden V with MGS graphics (or even just the graphics used in cutscenes also used in the rest of the game), no/much less loading, better voice acting (for minor characters and more of it in general), and marketing aimed at more than just the informed-gamer crowd could've been a real hit in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I tend to cringe a bit when people talking about the quality of graphics in Suikoden, something which I have never had a problem with, and comparing it to other series. Final Fantasy XII was quite graphical, yet from what I have seen the general consensus is it doesn't have much of a story to speak of. I guess, since I've known people who will enjoy a game until the graphics begin to look dated and then say they cannot bring themselves to play the game anymore because it doesn't feature cutting edge graphics.

I'm not against graphics keeping up with the times, but graphics alone do not make a game. Promotion is definitely one of the weakest points in the Suikoden series. I don't think I've ever seen a TV spot for the game, whereas a game like Final Fantasy VII had such a massive promotional campaign it was hard to miss.

Quote:
It's nice and all that they're trying to recruit new fans with Tierkreis, but I've seen less promotion for Tierkreis than I did for V, which means it's going to be the same crowd who know about Tierkreis (and this crowd will probably not be pleased with the whole "no-ties-to-previous-games" thing).


The only people who are really going to care about ties to previous games will be the established fan base. Newcomers, on the other hand, most likely will not have played Suikoden I through III, or maybe not even IV, V and Tactics, so the lack of continuity wouldn't bother them. At best, the continuity between the games could be considered "fanwank" as, if you require such continuity in order to play the game, the games become increasingly inaccessible to new players. So while having nods to previous installments which longtime players will appreciate, having them hit you over the head or becoming vital to being able to progress through the game would be a mistake.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, as the previous Suikoden games have shown, there IS an overarching story that each game is a part of. However, this story has been less of the main focus in compared to the 'battle at hand', so to speak. This is also what brings fans BACK to the series and letting them forgive the errors of previous games (3's no overworld walking, 4's horrid sea navigation gave me Windwaker flashbacks). If you take out the continuity, it just becomes a Final Fantasy with 108 stars.

As a reply to previous posts: An action based Suikoden would deplete their already diminished fanbase. Final Fantasy XII was horrible (and YES it was turn-based, as are all MMOs. If you try telling me XII wasn't a MMO hybrid, you need to wake up). What I've seen the gaming market progress towards is no-brain/all instinct thinking in the way things work. JRPGs fall into some traditional steps that certain players like: a comprehensive story works well (instead of the 'open ended' world that everything else is trying to do nowadays), the ability to THINK and strategize options instead of being rushed to decisions.

I personally don't know how many people here grew up with the fun of having a RPG akin more to having an interactive book, instead of it nowadays having the content of a TV show. As the action elements come into the games, they tend to feel more dumbed down.

(For the record, I HATE the direction Persona 3 & 4 went. The stories are great, I just hate playing forced relationship sims and the 'randomly generation dungeons' just ended up looking like trash and feeling generic.)

err...
/overly opinionated rant
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