Suikoden Ugly and Irrational Keystone Old Xperience

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Hawk Thanatos

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd be okay if they deviated from the turn based system in Suikoden but I wouldn't want it to be one of those action RPGs where you only control one character, I think that'd go against the entire spirit of the series.
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Ranadiel

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Elc wrote:
As there is a distinct period in between the time when a character and enemy attacks, that is enough to define the combat as turn-based. In fact, I have found the battle system to be very close to that of Final Fantasy X. I can see there being a waiting period when casting spells, but for swinging a sword/dagger or fighting bare handed, a wait time is ridiculous. Platformers and action games feature non turn-based battles. When a Final Fantasy battle can be played like a battle from, say, Zelda: Twilight Princess then I would be able to consider it non turn-based.

Seeing as how I never mentioned MMOs at all, and have never played them, I cannot call them turn based.

You have to understand, the waiting period in FFXII is simply to account for the lag of the other players. It isn't creating turns, it is simply making it so that there is enough time between attacks so that their moves can get sent even if they are on a 56k modem.....now why they decided it was important to account for lag in a single player game is beyond me, but if you had the chance to play an MMO before it would be really easy to recognize this.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I suppose that if the series is to continue, I could live with an action-RPG. I would just hope that it's done right. Even a slight problem with the combat controls could ruin the enjoyment. Having said that, it would surprise me if Konami went that route. They'd risk alienating the hardcore fans of a game that already doesn't sell millions. They'd risk losing more money. On the other hand, I could see why they may want to experiment in order to reach a larger audience. It depends on which direction they feel will ultimately help the series move forward. We can only hope their decision is the correct one.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ranadiel wrote:
You have to understand, the waiting period in FFXII is simply to account for the lag of the other players. It isn't creating turns, it is simply making it so that there is enough time between attacks so that their moves can get sent even if they are on a 56k modem


Nonsense, FFXII's system is little more ATB with the ability to move in battle and the turn gauge changed from 'charge' to 'delay' (FFIV also had charge times for spells, incidentally). The "waiting period" is there for the same reasons as always. Or, according to Wikipedia:

Quote:
The Active Dimension Battle (ADB) system featured in Final Fantasy XII is essentially a cross between the RTB system and the ATB's time meter. This system was inspired by the Final Fantasy XII developers' experience working on Ogre Battle and Vagrant Story (the latter was originally planned to have a two-player battle system).


If ADB is real-time, how can you say that ATB is not? Movement doesn't actually affect battles any more than switching rows - you can't avoid attacks by moving out of range or side-stepping. In other words, RPG's have had battles in real-time, or something approximating it, for a long time. Chrono Trigger didn't have a separate screen for battle mode, either, it just wasn't 3D. FFXII's battle system isn't nearly as new as it seems at a glance.

Having said that, I believe that traditional JRPG's can still sell if they're well-designed. Look at Dragon Quest VIII for a recent example - I believe it sold pretty well, despite being very traditional (in many aspects, not just battles).
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Ranadiel

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

If ADB is real-time, how can you say that ATB is not?

Umm I can't, and I don't believe that anyone else has either. I believe everyone so far has gone with either both being real time or both being turn based.
Quote:

FFXII's battle system isn't nearly as new as it seems at a glance.

Of course not, I know for a fact that Everquest had the same battle system back when I was in middle school(so I guess 11 years ago), and I'm sure other MMOs had used it before then as well. :p
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Having said that, I believe that traditional JRPG's can still sell if they're well-designed. Look at Dragon Quest VIII for a recent example - I believe it sold pretty well, despite being very traditional (in many aspects, not just battles).


Dragon Quest VIII came out almost 3 years ago, Suikoden V was released after it was. I don't think that qualifies for being recent.
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Calvin

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fuji, I think, is on to something. I can't believe I didn't notice it before, but even Suikoden V got a little more action oriented despite still being a JRPG--the war battles were very much a fluid action experience. Sure, the action paused when you selected a unit, but other than that there was no way to stop the battle's progression. Also, the duels had a time limit in V and were much more fluid in their execution as well compared to previous iterations.

It appears that Konami has already moved in the direction of being faster paced and more action oriented and we never really noticed. I would not be surprised to see them take it even further in Suikoden VI--how much further, really, is the only question. I think it would be hard to turn 6 perso parties into a completely action oriented experience unless they did it like FFXII (which seems like a lot of work on the player's part to set up gambits for 108 characters) or allowed for pauses in between selecting and executing the actions for each character.
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Song Jiang

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

i hope that they dont change six to much
i like the way suikoden 5 was set up but i dont want
my rpgs to become action games
i mean 5 was as fast paced as it should get
and i would also be happy if they didnt go back to the way
suikoden 3 battles were both group and war



i completely agree rpg's are more action based in a way it makes it
a little more fun but only to a point a say suikoden 5 got it right
with a far balance in the speed of gameplay. i hope suikoden never goes the way of
final fantasy 12 i would prefer they stay turn based in group battles
if they wanted to they could put a little more action in war battles
but keep it close to suikoden 5. i think most rpgs would me successful
with the suikoden 5 formula.


but thats just me i hope the game makers feel the same way
and if you look at fall out three. from the gameplay they showed at e3 that is a very action filled rpg but so is morrowind and oblivion.
my main concern is suikoden. not to repeat myself to much i think the suikoden 5 formula is a winner. :*laugh*:
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think this "old relic of the past" stuff is that important - you all have seen just how much praise and love Persona 3 did get. The game is really old school mechanic wise and on top of it it comes with random generated dungeons. In short, I guess it was saved by great characters, mature themes, and a compelling plot.

Which was exactly Suikoden's recipe until Konami fired off Murayama. I still have to see something as accomplished as Suikoden III ending in the recent rpgs.

My two cents about Suikoden VI? I would back to the roots, and I would look even more closely at the Shuihuzhuan. Whether people are aware of it or not, it was that source which drew them into the illusory world of Suikoden.

In all of this the battle system plays a very small part. I loved Suikoden's battles because they were quick and didn't get in the way of the narrative flow. As long as you keep party battles, one on one duels and strategic battles in it, you have all the gameplay elements to tell a Suikoden story.

btw, yeah, I played FFXII - like all Matsuno's games it was groundbreaking, with a great system, great characters, and a great plot. (in short it had everything for being hated by regular FF fans). But don't think that since XII there's no turning back. Give the same real-time battle to a less talented staff (let's say Nomura's) and the result will be equally as boring as the "old" jrpg.

And Suikoden really never had to look up to Final Fantasy - its roots are more into Phantasy Star perhaps.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gremio wrote:
I don't think this "old relic of the past" stuff is that important - you all have seen just how much praise and love Persona 3 did get. The game is really old school mechanic wise and on top of it it comes with random generated dungeons. In short, I guess it was saved by great characters, mature themes, and a compelling plot.


Persona 3 is not your most traditional game. It has turn based combat, but the battle system, the fusion personan system, the random dungeon and even some of the story were almost perfect linked. That's why the game was sucess. A traditional game would not have a calendar, a non linear system(except for full moon days, you usually do what you like) and let you control only your main character.

A true traditional game would have a order of dungeons and towns you must visit to finish the game, a random encounter system, few or no side quests and a turn based batlle (where you control everybody and usually just attacks and heals).

If they only change to a more action oriented battle system, it will a minimal change in my opinion. Try to imagine a suikoden game with a calendar like Persona 3 or even with one and only random dungeon.

Gremio wrote:
My two cents about Suikoden VI? I would back to the roots, and I would look even more closely at the Shuihuzhuan. Whether people are aware of it or not, it was that source which drew them into the illusory world of Suikoden.


But they did that with Suikoden V and didn't get much attention. I think they may try to invent some sort of new system to get more attention from the media and from non fans players.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A perfect example of this is the shining force series... it started out as great SRPG and they turned into a action RPG and now it sucks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Can't believe I've missed this thread for so long...

I get what Elc is saying for the FFXII being turn based. He's absolutely right. Once Vaan or whomever you have as your character attacks, a little bar at the bottom fills up before you can give him another command. This bar filling up means it is his turn again. In Kingdom Hearts, you hit X, Sora swings the keyblade. Hit it again immediately after, he does it again. No bars, no wait. Kingdom Hearts is an action RPG while FFXII is still a turn based one. Albeit the most action based a Final Fantasy has ever been, but its still turn based in one form or another.

The Action RPG though is not a new thing at all. Like it was brought up before, Zelda II: Adventure of Link is the first action RPG I can think of that wsn't crappy as hell, because I think Hydlide came out before Zelda II and it too is technically an action RPG. In the SNES era we saw Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore. Those too were Action RPGs. Hitting B made you attack and you could slash away all you wanted. Granted if you just kept hacking away your attacks would do less than if you waited a second or two between attacks, but the option to hack away was still there. Even the highly revered Chrono Trigger took a step closer to the action RPG genre. That game had non-random battles when engaging creatures on the screen, and then when the battle began, it never cut away to a special screen, you fought right there. Yes the fighting was still turn based, but it was a step towards what we see now with action RPGs.

I'll admit it, I hate action RPGs, it takes the strategy away and makes it more about reflexes and ability to think quickly. This basically means if you're disabled partially or have less dexterity, you're screwed. Kids with slight muscle control issues could play any Final Fantasy because he could take time inputting commands. Now he can't play any of these games. I know companies don't think of this very fractional market when they design them, but they are out there. I personally don't like action RPGs because I play games to relax and have fun. Not sit on the edge of my seat for a thrill ride. If I want that action, I'll go play Halo or watch a movie. RPGs were never about heavy action. Even in the "glory days" of FFVII and Xenogears, after a battle what did you do? You kicked back and watched a sweet ass FMV. Now you have to play through them it seems.

The steps taken towards "action based" in Suikoden V were baby steps. The fact was the characters didn't run around on screen like idiots, they only attacked when you told them to and how. It was completely turn based, they just modified it to be more like an ATB from FF7 or 8 than the older style in prior Suikoden games. Diving completely into the action genre would kill Suikoden. There'd be no way to keep that feel. Look at how Suikoden IV changed it up, it lost some of its feel and because of the four man system and the differences, the game is often seen as the black sheep of the series and is rarely someone's favorite. I can't see how they can implement an Action based system and have it still feel like a Suikoden.

Oh and Ryu, Shining Force NEO and EXA are not really related to the original series whatsoever. Shining Force 1-3 and gaidens all linked in some way. NEO and EXA aren't linked to each other, let alone to the original series. They just tried to whore the name out to get fans to buy it. They figured it had been almost a decde since the last one, so anything with that name will be a breath of fresh air to its fans, and it was dead wrong. The naming of a hero Max a bad guy named Kane/Cain and the presence of a robot named Adam doesn't make it a Shining Force at all. Actually, Max was only in one SF game and 1 Gaiden which never made it stateside, same with Adam. I don't think Adam was even playable in the gaiden, he served as the team's advisor, much like Nova in SF1.
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RedCydranth

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm bumping this because we had a decent convo going before the forum got flooded with posts dragging this halfway down the topics list.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RedCydranth wrote:
Diving completely into the action genre would kill Suikoden. There'd be no way to keep that feel. -- I can't see how they can implement an Action based system and have it still feel like a Suikoden.


They could do it like Final Fantasy XII Revenant Wings on the DS, which has battles in real time, and you control five characters plus their summoned creatures against the enemy. It even has some music that reminds me of Suikoden. It would be easy to tweak this system to fit a sixth character, and the skill system would already be almost perfectly suited for Suikoden series' rune system, only without the MP which would need to be added. It's very much an RPG with epic battles instead of an "action RPG", yet the battles are also very fast and flow smoothly, like what Suikoden I & II aspired to, just with a turn-based system. It would be a drastic departure for the series, but I will not curb my enthusiasm in saying that the end result could be nothing short of fantastic!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

We don't need to reinvent. We just need to make a good game.

Dragon Quest was a nothing series(in the states) until 8. Sure some would say the ff12 demo helped it sell however after it DQ is now a big franchise here with 3 DS remakes coming stateside.

Persona 3 is the best example. It is a turn based rpg however it sold better than anyone would expect because of how good the game is.

Suikoden V though it had a decent story (WAY too rehashed from previous suikodens for me but whatever) A fun but easily breakable battle system (true men>runes? wtf?) it still suffered from being mostly ugly(it matters) horrendous load times and mediocre to low reviews.

Suikoden IV had wind waker syndrome of sailing around all the time the supporting cast was for the most part boring and forgettable and decreasing the party size to 4 really turned away ALOT of fans.

Plus both went far away from the main timeline. Suikoden IV being the farthest. Suikoden V though closer did not impact the main plot. Either go between 2 and 3 or go after 3. Its been long enough. We don't care about the scenarios that barely matter to the mythos. Suikoden V only revealed 1 true rune.

We need our FF7 DQ8 Persona3 Tales Of Symphonia. Suikoden barely sells well in Japan nowadays and with the PS3 development costs and the Japanese hatred of the 360 the only viable option is the wii/DS/PSP and who the heck wants to create Suikoden for wii.

DS and PSP are both options. But nether will give the huge profile this game needs a boost in.

So they need to really try hard to make the best Suikoden when they do make it because if it fails again I don't think Konami will put any effort to iy again.

The options are kind of dismal.

X-Box 360:
Pros:
-Might get US sales due to the average rpg gamer having one of these nowadays.
-XBLA can make it so past suikodens can be released and maybe even reinclude game save carryovers
-If a game is good enough it will get good Japan sales. 70K for Vesperia shows that.
-If it is not released soonish FF13 will overshadow it as FF7 did with Suikoden 1 and 2.
Cons:
-If just thrown out into the market with no publicity it will fail
-Most people in Japan still don't own a 360 and this isn't gonna help

Wii:
Pros:
-Everyone and their Mom, Sister, Grandma, Granddad and Creepy Uncle owns the system.
-Wii Lacks RPGs.
Cons:
-I just don't see Konami going this route.
-Most of the people who own a wii won't even look at this game.

PS3:
Pros:
-Will sell decently in Japan if the game is good.
Cons:
-Most US people don't own a PS3 yet and those who do probably won't even look at this game. Maybe after FF13 is released but then theres the fear of having it overshadowed.

DS/PSP
Pros:
-Will sell well in Japan
-Can bring back the retro feel of the game
Cons:
-Might not be translated for USA due to fear of low sales.

To be honest I have no freaking clue how to handle Suikoden. I would say just pick a system and make a damn good game. Change up the battle system a bit but keep 6 characters maybe make the rune system a bit more complicated(finally bring in real MP or something) And maybe include weapon types/weaknesses for characters and enemies. Complicate the game a bit.
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