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The RPG Genre Changed and We All Missed It
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:16 am    Post subject: The RPG Genre Changed and We All Missed It Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was thinking to myself about video games, as I often do at work, and how the RPG genre has changed. Back in the mid-late 90's RPGs were flowing like crazy. They all shared the basic premise in gameplay. An map, a group of fighters with commands unique to them all and fancy spell effects/summons/attack combos and other unique features to make the battle systems special. It is what I have just now dubbed the "JRPG Platform". Games such as Xenogears, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Chrono Cross, Wild Arms, etc, etc... all RPGs built on the existing JRPG game style (or platform).

Konami's Suikoden series fits this mold and I feel it can be seen as a ... relic ... of 10 years ago. RPGs, especially in North America are going far more action-driven. Consider what MMORPGs have done such as WoW or Everquest. Square-Enix modified it's flagship traditional RPG franchise and are taking it into a more action-RPG adventure type game. There's Mass Effect and many other action-based RPGs on the Xbox360 and they are all selling well.

Perhaps the JRPG "platform" has run it's course and will now go the way of puzzle games. We can see far more RPG elements in FPS now, many RTS and action/adventure games feature elements now that were only common to full-out RPG games.


This brings me to the point of this post. If Suikoden VI were to be released, let's say tomorrow, would it be doomed to lose money? I feel it would as I feel the JRPG Platform in general is a dying breed.

For this reason, I speculate without any shred of proof going entirely on my optimistic nature that Suikdoen VI is not in active development. There is no working copy and we aren't close to seeing any screens gameplay footage. I like many of you believe Konami would not drop a franchise 5 versions in so quickly (that I doesn't lose them money) so I believe they are redoing the entire game platform. I feel this will take even longer than we expect because they must basically change the gameplay and systems to accomodate today's game climate. A climate where action and story already go hand in hand and simply having one or the other isn't enough. The Suikoden of old is a relic and I feel moving away from it now will be good for the series and will help keep it relevant going forward. Quite possibly the RPG genre changed and we all missed it.

... All except the game companies...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If that were to be true and they're switching to an action RPG, then Suikoden V would be the last Suikoden that I'll have purchased. The only action RPG that I've been able to stand is the KOTOR games, and those had a fairly simplistic and easy going action system. If it tries to implement a system like the Tales series, or Star Ocean, then forget about it. I want turn based. I want a leisurely pace. If that's a relic of the past and has no place in the future, then I guess I'm done with most games.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well....if it were to change to an action RPG that could spell disaster as well. My beloved King's Quest series changed from a puzzle based RPG to an action based RPG in its final game and that was the end of the series. It was hated by most of the fanbase and didn't sell nearly as well as its predecessors. I'm sure the company will think that going in a new direction might bring in new fans and give a breath of air to the series, but I think it'll backfire on them horribly.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While I would, personally, buy a game which follows the JRPG platform (I happen to love that format of game), I can see how the up and coming generations of gamers may not have the patience nor the attention span to truly appreciate the genre.

The RPG format has seen significant evolution over the years of console gaming, with the first game which could be technically called an RPG following a very simplistic and basic structure. However, said game could also be classified as an action RPG as it wasn't turn-based and the characters weren't static.

I'm not going to say I would drop Suikoden VI from my list of games to buy if it simply switched to an action RPG style, I would rather wait to see just how much of the fundamental Suikoden elements were retained. It would be absurd to assume the entire structural format of the series would have to be completely revamped in order for it to survive. As it has been mentioned in other recent discussions, the data transfer from the first few games isn't a big priority for me unless transferred data makes a significant impact on a subsequent game. Elements such as the 108 Stars of Destiny, the True Runes (and the giant nuns of Falena) and the concept of regional skirmishes instead of "hero must save the world" type of thing are no-brainers to include.

All in all, given my recent track record for playing games is concerned, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if I missed the reinvention of the RPG genre.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Honestly I feel the OP is right on the money here in many respects. Back when FFXII was in development, Square-Enix said that it was done with any/all forms of turn-based combat in it's RPGs for good. I was really sad about this. As it turned out, the game had all the charm and wit of a pebble. No plot, no characterisation, poor quality all round and entirely uninteresting from start to finish.

What saved it? The battle system. SE was right in that regard and I think, unfortunatly, that this is the way it's going.

That's not to say I like it that way, I am one of the very very few who prefer turn based battles that cut off to a seperate screen. But it is rare these days.

Though I guess, what I really like about Suikoden is the plot and if it did go the way of Star Ocean/Tales (which would be the best case scenario), I wouldn't be too upset as long as the series lives on.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A friend of mine brought over his XBox360 the other night and fired up Lost Odessy to show me the game; this sparked a very good discussion about how the RPG maket is changing and from what I saw the direction doesn't nessesarily have to be bad. Imagine if Konami put the sort of budget that went into that game into a Suikoden title; It might actually do well in the US!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The problem is the mainstream audience, I remember alot of the negative remarks when Suikoden V came out regarding the same old issues like random battles, turn based combat and seperate battle screens making it an "out-dated and generic RPG". All of these things are positives in my book, but to the mainstream audience it only gets in the way of so called progression.

Will Suikoden change to meet the demand? I don't know. We fear change, but I'd be willing to bet most of us here just want continuation of the series/suiko-verse even if it means having to be a bit more active on the control pad.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Darkbeat wrote:
We fear change, but I'd be willing to bet most of us here just want continuation of the series/suiko-verse even if it means having to be a bit more active on the control pad.


I am one fo those people. I just want the series to continue.

But in saying that, the wrong implementation of a more action based battle system could kill off the series for good.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Darkbeat wrote:
Back when FFXII was in development, Square-Enix said that it was done with any/all forms of turn-based combat in it's RPGs for good.


The problem with this statement is, no matter which way you look at it, Final Fantasy XII's battle system, as disguised as it is, is still a turn-based system. The only difference is being able to see most of the enemies on the map and the ability to avoid/outrun them. But, make no mistake about it, it's definitely turn-based.

The fact that it doesn't switch to a battle screen eliminates one of the long-standing complaints amongst gamers: less time wasted waiting for something to load.

Speaking of "mainstream" audiences, it's just too bad that the western gaming audience has gotten so superficial that it seems like all they care about is flashy, state-of-the-art graphics and stuff to blow the holy hell out of. That must explain why the Xbox is so popular amongst that crowd.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Elc wrote:
Darkbeat wrote:
Back when FFXII was in development, Square-Enix said that it was done with any/all forms of turn-based combat in it's RPGs for good.


The problem with this statement is, no matter which way you look at it, Final Fantasy XII's battle system, as disguised as it is, is still a turn-based system. The only difference is being able to see most of the enemies on the map and the ability to avoid/outrun them. But, make no mistake about it, it's definitely turn-based.

The fact that it doesn't switch to a battle screen eliminates one of the long-standing complaints amongst gamers: less time wasted waiting for something to load.


How is it turn based? Granted, there is a wait in between actions, but thats' really the only similarity I can think of between the combat system of FFXII and a turn based game. The gameplay, speaking in terms of time and input, was almost identical to MMOs (with the exception of the gambits) which aren't turn based. And, if you are calling MMOs turn based, I think it's impossible to call any RPG on the market not turn based, considering all RPGs have some sort of waiting system in between actions.

Anyway, I have to agree that the RPG genre has gone away from the JRPG style and more action based. I think this is one of the reasons that there will not be a Suikoden 6. One of the big aspects of Suikoden is the managing a huge number of characters, but the majority of RPGs coming out on the market seem to be more focused and building up one character in a manner that the player sees fit. Short of a really big budget and a ton of time spent on the game, I can't think of a way that those two aspects could be combined in a game that would still feel like Suikoden.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For me Suikoden's selling charm has always been the storyline, so a change in the battle system won't bother me all that much. That being said, however, messing up the battle systems is a great way to destroy the game, since that is what the player will spend half the time on. And, Suikoden did go slightly more action-based in 5, with the real-time strategic battles and a time limit in the duels.

Personally, I enjoyed Persona 3's battle system. You had to run up and physically hit a representative enemy wandering around on the map, then it would cut to a turn-based system where turn order was based off each individual character's speed. Also, you were unable to control your allies' actions. I feel that balanced out both systems fairly well.

One problem that I do have with purely action-based systems is that your allies never seem to be of much help. Even with different strategies to give them, they attack at random, don't heal when they're supposed to, and are generally frustrating.

That all being said, I would love to see the Suikoden series continue, even with a new battle-system. It would break my heart if the "new and improved" battles ruined the game, because I feel that a blow like that would sink the series.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Timbo wrote:
How is it turn based? Granted, there is a wait in between actions, but thats' really the only similarity I can think of between the combat system of FFXII and a turn based game. The gameplay, speaking in terms of time and input, was almost identical to MMOs (with the exception of the gambits) which aren't turn based.


As there is a distinct period in between the time when a character and enemy attacks, that is enough to define the combat as turn-based. In fact, I have found the battle system to be very close to that of Final Fantasy X. I can see there being a waiting period when casting spells, but for swinging a sword/dagger or fighting bare handed, a wait time is ridiculous. Platformers and action games feature non turn-based battles. When a Final Fantasy battle can be played like a battle from, say, Zelda: Twilight Princess then I would be able to consider it non turn-based.

Quote:
And, if you are calling MMOs turn based


Seeing as how I never mentioned MMOs at all, and have never played them, I cannot call them turn based.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think we're working off different definitions of turn-based. I define turn-based as what we see in Suikoden: you input actions for everyone before anything happens, then characters act according to speed (or whatever) during the actual turn. FFXII didn't do this. A FF game hasn't been turn-based in this way since the NES days. Instead they go with an active time battle system of sorts and haven't really deviated from this, despite the minor modification they did in FFX. FFXII has menus and there are prep times for actions, but the addition of a pause in real time doesn't make it turn-based.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I can't speak for Final Fantasy XI, since it's a game I haven't played, but taking it out of the equation, the (numbered - caveat since I don't pay attention to the various spin-offs) Final Fantasy series has yet to actually feature any fully realized real time combat. Kingdom Hearts, on the other hand, is a truly non turn-based RPG. Even Zelda II was real time as opposed to turn-based. (yes, whether we like it or not, Zelda II is technically an RPG, though not necessarily a good one)

With the exception of gambits, the only real difference between the combat style of Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XII is the elimination of the random factor (and removing the indicator for the order of attack.) It is almost impossible, even in Final Fantasy XII, for multiple characters to attack a target at the exact same time, even if you have their gambits set to attack the party leader's target. Their meter will usually not even start to fill up until the party leader starts to move towards the target or the target gets close enough that they decide to go after it.

Just because the characters can move around freely during combat doesn't mean it isn't turn-based, it's just not turn-based in a way we have played it before. The fact that is can convince the player that the battles are no longer turn-based speaks for its effectiveness.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think, by your definition of turn based, it is impossible to make a game that isn't turn based. If having a distinct period of time between attacks is what makes a game turn based, then all games are turn based, as attack animations in any game are distinct periods of time between attacks. Assuming you aren't considering attack animations as the distinct time between attacks, it would still mean that practically every action RPG in existence is turn based. Almost every action RPG has an attack speed statistic on weapons, which is a variable that establishes wait time between attacks. And, using your definition of what makes an RPG turn based, that would mean any RPG that has an attack speed variable has now become a turn based game, as there is a distinct time between attacks that isn't based on the attack animation. A game like Warcraft 3 would also become turn based, as there are wait times between attacks not based on an attack animation.

I also don't think it is almost impossible for multiple party members to attack the exact same time in FFXII, as it occurred for me rather regularly.
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