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Starslasher
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 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: Heavy Metal Islam |
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I mentioned in one of the threads about Mark Levine, a professor from the University of California who has travelled around the Middle East and North Africa. If there is anyone who wants to know about the region, then there is no one more qualified than him in informing you about the history of the countries as well as the present going ons. He has definitely been to not only Morrocco or Dubai, but also to the Palestinian Territories, going so far as interview Hamas millitants, as well as risking his life by going to Iraq, where he did meet with anti-American millitant mullahs as well as the regular people. He has written many books about the Middle East such as An Impossible Peace: Oslo and the Burdens of History and the more well known Why they Don't hate us: Lifting the Veil on the Axis of Evil. One other thing to mention is that Mark LeVine is not only a History professor, but also a professional musician. He had colloaborated with musicians in the US and the Middle east. He also collaborated with Ozomatli who won a Grammy Award in 2002 for Best Latin Rock/Alternative Album.
That brings me to an upcoming book that should be out soon, and that is the title of this thread: Heavy Metal Islam: Rock Resistance and the Untold Story of Islam's Generation X.
http://hnn.us/blogs/comments/11526.html
Given here is an article that gives the general context that the book would be about. In brief, Here are some of the points that he gives from the interviews, articles, and other media that he written about this subject:
- The Middle East has one of the youngest populations in the region (about half of Iran's population are below the age of 20). So you have millions of youths who are in a diffcult point in their lives and want their voices heard.
- The heavy metal scene in the Middle east is pretty big, as a matter of fact. There are rock concerts in Morrocco, Egypt, Dubai and Beirut, there is a large underground rock and hip hop movement in Iran.
- Rock and hip-hop music was originally a medium to voice the frustration of the have nots, the disillusioned and the underdogs. While nowadays, rock and rap in the West is becoming more and more a voice for commericalism, rock and rap is growing as a means for the youth to critique the situation around them.
- The rise in rock and rap is an effect of globalisation, which is going on as we speak, but in a good sense, as globalisation definitley has some bad points. It is used for "culture jamming", to bring people and cultures together, and in the author's opinion, is the best way to bridge the gap between the Middle Eastern countries and the Western countries. Not to mention, musicians don't have to go through the dirty business of politics and they are one of the most open minded of people.
The purpose of this thread was not to advertise this book, although i'm dying to get it when it comes out.
It's about your view on the idea of Heavy Metal in the Middle East. No doubt that this would be a surprise for most of you, even for me, who wouldn't think of Egypt as a country having headbangers.
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Jowy Atreides
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, the gap between citizen and government in Iran (and other Islamic countries, I'm sure, but I haven't studied them much) is huge, especailly when you look at any pictures of Iranian youth, who dress exactly like us, while barely following Iran's strict "modesty laws." Just look at Marjane Satrapi's Persepolis. One of her stories describes how she was completely covered, but was wearing a jacket over her covering that said "ROCK IS NOT DED" [sic] on the back, and was chastised by the modesty police, or whatever they are called. This contrasts to the extremism of Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, who once required rally attendees to chant "Death to America!!" during his speeches.
Heavy metal, and other Western cultural exports, seem to be a part of this. There's a few Muslim Rock bands based here in the States, but I can't remember any of them.
But, as a follower of standup comedy, I've heard some Islamic standup troupes, such as the "Axis of Evil Comedy Tour." |
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: |
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If you're interested in reading up more on life of the Iranians in the Islamic Republic of Iran, try looking for the book Persian mirrors: the elusive face of Iran by Elaine Sciolino. It's not that recent, published back at 1999, during Khatami's Presidency, but it gives a good idea on how regular Iranians live in the country and how they view the government. It shows that they are actually not anti-American at all, at the very least when this author, an American woman, was there.
One of the things that i picked up from the book, which relates to the thread, is that one of the things that made the Islamic Republic of Iran perhaps more bearable than the USSR or Maoist China was that the government controls most of the public sphere in Iran, but gives Iranians the space to do what they want in the privacy of their own homes. Of course, it's unbearable when the moral police (don't know if there's a proper name given for them) raid their house at time to time. That is probably where some of these bands get the ability to produce their tracks, even though the government would crack down hard on them.
There is one band named Arimoth, and the link shows a YouTube video that they made called "Baptize". It's a sample of just how hardcore the underground metal scene is there in Iran. Don't worry if you can't understand the words: heavy metal just sounds that way. :P
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| But, as a follower of standup comedy, I've heard some Islamic standup troupes, such as the "Axis of Evil Comedy Tour." |
Yeah, i saw some of their shows, they're pretty funny. There's this other one called "Allah made me Funny". However "Axis of Evil" is more about the politics, while "Allah made me Funny" jokes more on the religion. The former was funnier, i found, i really like Maz Jobrani, whose one of my favorites!
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Jowy Atreides
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Iran is a very interesting place, and I think that it could be another secular Muslim-majority country in the Middle East, following the example of Turkey, if the government allowed it to happen under their own rules. I think that this is because, as a country that has pretty liberal censorship laws (especially on the internet, and especially compared to the other Islamic Republics out there), the populace has been heavily influenced by Western (specifically American) media, and have thusly wanted to look, act, smell, and live like us. Occasionally the American media portrays Iran as hopelessly stuck in the past, such as the time when a few very conservative old people protested the film 300. Even the President, who should be focusing on, oh, I don't know, running the country, condemned the film. I'm not sure if the film is banned (probably, due to Iran's trigger-happy censors), but I don't think the media's portrayal of Iran is accurate on any level.
But, maybe that's a discussion for another time.
I agree that Iran is generally liberal when it comes to privacy, compared to similar countries, and, while I hate censorship, I think the way it is done in Iran is how it should be done: the offending material is censored, but the fact that censorship has taken place is obvious, and the act of censoring itself is not covered up. For example, a blogger named J Turn wrote an extensive entry, complete with pictures, that shows how censorship is generally done in Iran.
I also really enjoy Maz Jobrani! He's a great standup. I've also heard of "Allah Made Me Funny," but I've never heard their stuff. |
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Jowy Atreides wrote: |
Yeah, Iran is a very interesting place, and I think that it could be another secular Muslim-majority country in the Middle East, following the example of Turkey, if the government allowed it to happen under their own rules. I think that this is because, as a country that has pretty liberal censorship laws (especially on the internet, and especially compared to the other Islamic Republics out there), the populace has been heavily influenced by Western (specifically American) media, and have thusly wanted to look, act, smell, and live like us. Occasionally the American media portrays Iran as hopelessly stuck in the past, such as the time when a few very conservative old people protested the film 300. Even the President, who should be focusing on, oh, I don't know, running the country, condemned the film. I'm not sure if the film is banned (probably, due to Iran's trigger-happy censors), but I don't think the media's portrayal of Iran is accurate on any level.
But, maybe that's a discussion for another time.
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I think that you can be very much correct that Iran, if it was a government run by the people, then it would be one of the most secular countries in the region. I would have used the word democracy, but one would have to admit that there was democratic institutions in the Islamic Republic. From the book that i mentioned in my previous post Persian Mirrors, the writer wrote that most people did not protest too much about living under the Shah's Iran, nor do they protest too much about living in the Islamic Republic. What they do is try to live the best as they can udner those circumstances.
And i'm afraid that you are incorrect when you claim that a few very old conservatives condemned the movie the 300. If you talked with most Iranians, or even watched the latest materials from Maz Jobrani, You'll find that all of them were mad at the movie, since they take alot of pride in being Persian.
But back to the main topic at hand, heavy metal has been cracked down on in countries like Morroco or Egypt. The government of Morroco claimed that using the Pentagram in those metal band concerts were symbols of Satan, and such, never mind that they have that pentagram-like star also in their flag. The real reason that these governments are harsh on this kind of music is not that they find it Satanic or such, but that it's a challenge to those governments in power. Metal and hip hop were both music genres that originally were used to critique the government or the social situation around them.
And one more thing to mention is that these governments like Mubarak's or King Hassan's are considered moderates, or moderate Muslims, by the US. But the question is how do you define "moderates"? Apparently, for the US government, "moderates" are those who aren't that critical of US foreign policy or the Israeli occupation or the like. But these governments, while being "moderate" in that sense, aren't really moderates in governance, they are autocrats who routinely violate the human rights of their citizens.
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Jowy Atreides
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Iran is probably the best democracy in the region, outside of Israel, but, as we've seen with the recent elections, reformist politicians are usually cut out of the process for not significantly conforming to the "goals of the Islamic Revolution." This is how reformist Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri was sacked, a man who was intended to become the next Supreme Leader after Ruhollah Khomeini.
I don't know about the 300 thing. The guy I posted about a while ago, J Turn, primarily focuses on blogs in Iran, and has said that a lot of people on the internet were calling for their fellow Iranians to show some restraint in protesting 300. But, I really don't know either way.
Attempts to suppress rock in these countries reminds me of the backlash against Elvis, comic books, and other such "immoral" things back in the extremely conservative 50's. People back then thought these things would cause American society to fall apart, and the response seems to be the same in these staunchly Islamic countries.
I'm not sure what moderate means either. Turkey is the best example of how a Muslim-majority (but not Islamic) county should be run, and even Turkey has tons of problems, not only with its Muslim neighbors, but also with Greece, the Kurds, and recognition of the Armenian genocide. And yet, despite being Muslim-majority, Turkey maintains extremely close relations with Israel, and did so voluntarily, unlike Egypt and other places. |
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of what i heard or read about the metal scene in the MIddle East stems from Mark Levine, which is pretty much why i mentioned him. I doubt that you will find much from outside his books/articles, except that a few days ago i did see on CNN a piece on rap in Iran.
| Quote: |
| Attempts to suppress rock in these countries reminds me of the backlash against Elvis, comic books, and other such "immoral" things back in the extremely conservative 50's. People back then thought these things would cause American society to fall apart, and the response seems to be the same in these staunchly Islamic countries. |
It really isn't much about religion in those Middle East countries, apparently, since Professor Levine had said that he saw in one of these rock festivals guys wearing black makeup and they were standing with what seem to be their mothers or their aunts who were conservatively dressed; and he also mentioned that there were women wearing their hijabs over their Iron Maiden T-shirts.
The main issue is that the music is a counter against the authorities, which was why the governments or conservatice mullahs are against it.
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| I'm not sure what moderate means either. Turkey is the best example of how a Muslim-majority (but not Islamic) county should be run, and even Turkey has tons of problems, not only with its Muslim neighbors, but also with Greece, the Kurds, and recognition of the Armenian genocide. |
Actually, concerning Turkey, i don't even think that it is the best example of how a Muslim-majority country should be run. Sure, it is one of the most secular of the Muslim countries, but even that is a topic that people butt heads at. But my point is that while they don't try to promote Islamic extremism/fundamentalism (what's the difference between extremism and fundamentalism anyways? I never understood the "fundamentalism meant, only how is it used), but that is replaced with a strong sense of nationalism, of "Turkishness". And because of that, the Turkish government clashes with the Kurds, Armenians and Greeks and what not. The Turkish governments, like all Middle eastern governments, remain conservative and highly on the defensive. That's my view anyways.
Actually, at the moment, the nest example of how a Muslim majority country should be run is Indonesia. It has had a history of not being so democratic, and having lots of problems, but that was during the Soeharto years, who remained President for about 32 years. After he stepped down in 1998, there was a period of Reformation, and Indonesia nowadays, in my opnion, remains the most democratic country in the region. But coupled with this democracy, in contrast to most other SouthEast Asian governments, is an overall slight leaning towards the left, or liberalism. Sure there are lots of problems that they have to deal with, mainly combating Islamic extremism, corruption, the environement and natural disasters. But there is a lot of political freedom, there are even a few politically Islamic parties, but these emphasise that they are here to particiapte in a democracy and promote pluralism, as opposed to some other Islamic political parties in the Middle East.
But the Indonesian government is a secular one, but using the priciples of what is called Pancasila or the five principles, which states: Belief in one God; Unity in Indonesia; belief in democracy; just and civilised humanity; and social justice for all Indonesians. This is admittedly not that secular, but it is not sectarian either.
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Jowy Atreides
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, one of Atatürk's Reforms concerns nationalism, and this is probably where Article 301 comes into play. However, my understanding of being a Turk is that you are a Turk by virtue of the fact that you live in Turkey, as people who are citizens of the United States are Americans, whether they be Anglo, Korean, African, or otherwise. So, you can be both a Kurd and a Turk, if you like.
Turkey could go a lot further, but it's the best example out of the possible candidates.
I think Indonesia has the potential to be a good example of a Muslim-majorty country, but right now they are dealing with a legacy of dictatorship, extreme poverty, regional problems (such as East Timor, which used to belong to Indonesia, Papua, Aceh, and other areas), and the potential for these regional problems to spill into the population centers (bombings, etc.). Perhaps the country is more secular, but I am talking about an overall level of development, not just on the religious front. |
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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If you take a comparison of the two countries in Freedom House, It would show that Turkey was labelled as "Partly Free", while Indonesia was given that status of "Free", but just barely, as the ratings are given for Civil Liberties and Political Rights between 1 and 9 (1 being free while 9 is restricted). Turkey was rated 3 in both Political Rights and Civil Liberties, deeming it Partly Free. Indonesia is just ahead by a notch with Political Rights rated 2 but Civil Liberties rated 3 as well, yet this was enough to be deemed Free by the website.
I have read up a bit on the Turkish political situation, but i had lived in Indonesia for nearly 10 years, and have a better idea about it, i'll confess. But in comparison of the two country, from my knowledge, Indonesia has allowed relatively more freedom than Turkey. The first example that comes to me is the controversy that Nobel Prize winner Orhan Pamuk had faced when he was prosecuted by the Turkish government for insulting "Turkishness" by criticizing Turkey in the Armenian genocide.
As for the regional problems of Indonesia, East Timor is not really their problem, not since they gained their independance in 2002. To the best of my knowledge, they had remained out of their business (and rightly so). It definitely was one of their problems in 1998 and 1999, in the aftermath of Suharto's resignation, but in late 1999, they withdrew their troops and let UN peacekeepers come in and let the area stabilise.
Concerning Aceh, recently there was peace talks between the Indonesian government and GAM after the Tsunami, and Aceh is now an autonomous region and has political parties participating in the Indonesian government.
But you are correct that there are problem with Papua (otherwise known as Irian Jaya in Indonesia). But i'm confident that there will be a brighter future in the conflict, since there was an eventual settlement. At least in comparison with Turkey and the Kurdish separatists.
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Jowy Atreides
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Of course, even calling the Armenian Genocide a 'genocide' is illegal in Turkey, under Article 301. They should just recognize it and move on: everyone else has.
All things considered, they probably are pretty close, and not that different.
Do you think that any Muslim Rockers could become popular, to the extent that they could tour in the West? That could bridge a lot of gaps, I think. |
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Do you think that any Muslim Rockers could become popular, to the extent that they could tour in the West? That could bridge a lot of gaps, I think.
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Well, the author Mark Levine was pointing this out as his main hope for bridging the gap between the Arab countries and the Western countries, just like you said, Jowy. And he said that he wasn't talking about a few isolated cased like bringing a few Iraqi bands to the US, but really getting more participation of Western audiences to listen to these rock bands. One thing that makes things a bit easier is that some of these bands do write original songs in English, like the Lebanese rock band The Kordz or some Pakistani rock bands. But still, most of the hip hop/rock songs in these countries are done in Arabic (and sometimes in French by Morrocan and Lebanese bands). To Professor Levine, this is the effect of gloablisation that is drastically needed across the Middle East, and not the other negative efffects.
To me, i do think that this can help bridge gaps as well. I think that it's just starting, and perhaps in a few years time, we might see some muslim rock bands trying to make it to the mainstream American music industry.
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Jowy Atreides
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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That would certainly be interesting.
Of course, there are already some popular Muslims out there, who are very American, such as Muhammad Ali, Dave Chappelle, and Lupe Fiasco, but most either don't know they're Muslim (Chappelle, Fiasco), or don't think about it (Ali).
It's too bad, really. |
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, i know about those guys.
You should check out this webpage, again by Mark Levine, which shows pics of him in the Middle East with those heavy metal bands. I was surprised to learn that one of the more popular rock bands in the Middle East is a band named Orphaned Land, an Israeli Jewish band with Arab-Oriental tunes.
http://flickr.com/photos/14455667@N07/
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Jowy Atreides
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe it'll solve the Arab-Israeli Conflict, hahaha. |
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Heh, that would be nice. But they would have about the same capacity to solve the conflict as the Palestinian rappers Dam, which is also popular in Israel, and mainly critiques the Israeli Occupation, and even had a hit song "Minar Habi (Who is the terrorist)?".
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