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US Elections 2008
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Yohn

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Sailor Sexy":1sduf0l9] I just check the write in box and say to vacate the office. It can't be very important if only one person is willing to run for it, so cut back on government waste and eliminated the office.


Does stuff like that actually work? I know taxes in my area aren't terrible, but I don't know if anything'll be different come the end of the year. I've not lived in this part of the state before, but I did live a few counties north and I can't see it being too different.

Also, if you run for office, Sailor, will the paraphernalia with your name on it say "With Lolis and justice for All!"?
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Sailor Sexy

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have no idea if that would actually work or not, but it's rather stupid to vote for someone when they're running unopposed, so I might as well write something that makes me feel a bit better. And I like that slogan! I may have to use it, even though like all political statements, that would be a complete lie. There would be no justice other than my own brand of justice allowed, and the lolis would all be mine! :D
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: US Elections 2008 Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was rather enraged when I saw that the same-sex marriage ban had passed in CA, AZ, and FL. I have always been strongly socially liberal--I have a strong belief that unless my life will be negatively affected in some way, how other people live their lives shouldn't be of any concern to me.

That night (would have been Wednesday night, if I remember correctly), however, I had an amazing (and long) philosophical discussion with one of my best friends. I am a political moderate (although I tend to lean towards the liberal end of the spectrum), voted for Obama (although my reasons against McCain were mainly that I thought Obama had a better chance of actually changing our governing system and I didn't want Sarah Palin to have any more power than she already has), and call myself an agnostic existentialist (I don't know if a higher being exists, and I don't think it matters because I believe in the power of the individual). My friend is politically conservative, supported McCain, and is a strong Christian.

Part of our discussion was specifically about the same-sex marriage issue, and morality in general. Here are some of the points we brought up:

~Separation of church and state is essentially impossible. Everyone's definition of morals and what is 'right' or 'wrong' is based on their personal beliefs, and most people's beliefs stem from their 'religion' (in this case, religion refers to organized religion). Why should a Christian's or Buddhist's belief's not be allowed in policy-making, but an atheist's be allowed? If we're going to have any sort of action regarding morality, we'll need to take into consideration all people's beliefs, regardless of beliefs stem from.

~Social conservatism is essentially necessary. The government can't choose to ignore only some aspects of people's morals (or if it can, how do we choose which ones should be influential and which should be ignored?). Social liberalism is therefore essentially impossible without having no consequences for acts such as murder or rape. If in my mind, homosexuality is as wrong as murder, why should the government allow homosexual activities but not murder?

~Because the government needs to uphold morality, society needs to decide on a universal set of morals to follow. The problem here is deciding what these morals will be. If I argue that there is are natural and explicit rights and wrongs, why should anyone else believe me? The only possible way to decide on a universal idea of right and wrong is for society to decide on these together. How do we go about this? If we go by majority rules, America can no longer be a mixture of many different religions, beliefs, and people. We'll then be a Christian or Islamic state. What if we take one right and wrong from each persons belief. Not only would this be tedious, but what if we get contradicting rights and wrongs, or what if something like murder is made a right and something like equality of genders is made a wrong?

Basically, this entire issue is extremely difficult and there's no easy way to go about all of this. I personally believe that if someone's actions aren't harming me in any way, it shouldn't be any of my business. But even that is a difficult matter. What if I'm a business owner who believes homosexuality is wrong. If we allow gay couples to receive the same rights as heterosexual couples, and that right includes giving employer benefits to an employee's spouse, I will have to give up some of my business's income to a cause that is immoral in my mind. To complicate the situation even more, what if I'm a homosexual business owner who believes that sex between a man and woman should only serve as a means of reproduction, and only homosexual relationships and unions are morally right. Once again, we're back to "whose definition of right and wrong do we go with?"

I'm going to go off on a tangent here. I personally have no moral objections to homosexuality, and I really want to know how anyone can find it morally wrong. Here are my personal responses to the only objections I've seen towards homosexuality and homosexual couples:

"Homosexuals are choosing something that's wrong/unnatural." First of all, who said that homosexuality is a choice? I have literally NEVER talked to a homosexual who said that they chose their sexual orientation. Furthermore, why should it be a matter of choice. Can you (referring to a heterosexual) force yourself to be sexually attracted to someone of the same gender? Why should a homosexual person be able to? So, I think it's safe to establish that homosexuality is not a choice. What makes this choice wrong or unnatural? I dislike chocolate--does that give someone who likes the chocolate the right to say I'm being morally wrong? And how do we know homosexuality is unnatural. I feel very strong feelings for people of the same gender--they might not be sexual feelings, but it's a form of love. We don't know that homosexuality is not a part of nature (unless someone can point out studies that have been done to determine whether other animals participate in homosexual behavior). And even if homosexuality is only human, humans do other strange/'unnatural' behaviors as well. Last time I checked, most animals don't put there lives in danger to "enjoy the thrill," heck, most animals don't even have sexual intercourse for pleasure (dolphins are the only other animals thought to do this that I know of).

"The bible says homosexuality is wrong" (This is reference to Christianity, as well as any other religion which preaches homosexuality is wrong). The bible says a lot of other things that we do are wrong too (these examples have been listed numerous times). What about adultery? Isn't not committing adultery one of the Ten Commandments? And yet, not only is committing adultery typically no longer against the law, but it seems to happen surprisingly often. I highly doubt that every person who is against homosexuality has never committed adultery (or some other "major sin"). Why should those people go unpunished, but not homosexuals?

"Homosexuals should not be allowed to 'marry' (including civil unions) and raise children because children need the influence/love of both a mother and father" This one I really don't understand. My answer to this is always "what about single parents?" What about parents who teach their children to swear, be racist, use physical force against bullies? Even if children are psychologically influenced by homosexual parents (which has yet to be proven), what makes those influences so much worse than the others I listed (and many more)?

Okay, I think I'm done ranting for now (I should really save this post in a text file, haha!). Basically, in terms of homosexuality, I don't think there should be any limits on that. Not only do I think it's not a major moral concern that heavily affects people, but I don't believe it should be a moral concern at all. In general, however, social policy is a very touchy issue. Because of the fact that we are social organisms and we have a government at all, we're going to have to deal with disagreement. If we all had the same beliefs, or we somehow had an explicit set of moral standards, this would be an issue. But neither of those are the case, and that's something we have to deal with.

I honestly feel that morality should be an ultimately personal matter. Unless your physical well-being is at risk of being harmed (or ultimately, unless you're at risk of losing your life), other people's morals and choices should not be of anyone's concern but their own. But I don't see that being a universal mindset any time soon (or ever), so our nation needs to start making some major decisions. I think the partisan division in our nation has prevented this from happening, and I feel like our society has shifted towards viewing disagreement in a very negative light. I'm hoping that Obama's presidency will at least start to shift us away from these and bring about real change (and not just different policies, which any president could have done).

If anyone takes the time to actually read all of that, I would love to hear your opinions!
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Sailor Sexy":2wgpx85c]Yohn, we had a bunch of those too. I just check the write in box and say to vacate the office. It can't be very important if only one person is willing to run for it, so cut back on government waste and eliminated the office.

That's way too goddamn extreme and ignorant. You think that just because there was only one person who was running for the job that it's unnecessary? Never mind that it's probably the job that effects you the MOST, you want it gone just because you had it beaten into your head that government spending is the father of all evils? You should probably pay more attention to your local offices like you should do for the sake of your country rather than assume that an elected official is unnecessary just because it isn't high paying or exciting enough for someone else to want it at the moment.

Go ahead and apply that to regular business, and we'll have a 30% unemployment rate. There are better fucking ways to reduce spending aside from cutting your personal representative from the government.
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Tullaryx

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, I'm going to guess that you are taking what might be an individual joking around with his time in the voting booth as proof that he's an ignorant person with extreme tendencies. Your reaction is why I stay center. Whether liberals or conservatives the zealots...and yes I will label you as a zealot as you have labeled someone else ignorant... always make politics and civil service unpalatable. Who cares if he's even saying it seriously. It'll be his mistake and unless he's actually living near you and voting in your district probably doesn't affect you one bit.

The elections are over. People won and people lost. Issues won over others. I had thought this past election and the person wo had won it was to be the beginning of de-labeling others you may disagree with and vice versa. It seems it's more of those who have won now think they can push their own ideologies on those whose way of thinking they don't like. Way to go.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: US Elections 2008 Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

"The bible says homosexuality is wrong" (This is reference to Christianity, as well as any other religion which preaches homosexuality is wrong).


This is a common misconception actually. The bible labels homosexual sex as a sin, not homosexuality. What is the difference? Homosexual sex is an action, homosexuality is a state of identity. Homosexuality (as in being homosexual, not having homosexual sex) is a relatively recent concept, so the bible doesn't say anything directly about it. It is sad that many people of the Christian faith do not realize this, or refuse to take notice of this, as a rationalization for their own homophobia.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually to further whittle it down by technicalities. The act of homosexual sex between two men is a sin. However there is no mention of women.

As said in the Old Testament:

"A man shall not lay with another man as he would a woman."

So clearly either women just didn't matter, or the writters just enjoyed their girl on girl action.
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Calvin

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Yvl":21t51toy][quote="Sailor Sexy":21t51toy]Yohn, we had a bunch of those too. I just check the write in box and say to vacate the office. It can't be very important if only one person is willing to run for it, so cut back on government waste and eliminated the office.

That's way too goddamn extreme and ignorant. You think that just because there was only one person who was running for the job that it's unnecessary? Never mind that it's probably the job that effects you the MOST, you want it gone just because you had it beaten into your head that government spending is the father of all evils? You should probably pay more attention to your local offices like you should do for the sake of your country rather than assume that an elected official is unnecessary just because it isn't high paying or exciting enough for someone else to want it at the moment.

Go ahead and apply that to regular business, and we'll have a 30% unemployment rate. There are better fucking ways to reduce spending aside from cutting your personal representative from the government.

This post has just shown your own ignorance on the issue, Yvl. It was painfully obvious that Sailor was making the point that only having one option is unfair to voters and stupid. His choice to write in vacate the office wouldn't have any effect on said person being elected. Everyone knows that. And why should one pay more attention to one's local offices when there is only one option on the ballot anyway? Sounds like a waste of time to me.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah... sorry. I took it too seriously. I've been really uptight lately between all this, school, and my health. Flipped the fuck out at someone in school for putting an untrue attack poster from McCain's website up in our campus, and had to seriously restrain myself for doing the same to Obama staffers at an event.

I still don't get why government spending is so damn evil though. If it's used to create new jobs - an issue that was actually on my ballot this time - then it helps our economy, and helps the government receive more in tax revenue. But everywhere I go, this idea is met with "FUCK NEW JOBS, THE GOVERNMENT HAS A DEFICIT!" when the government isn't even in THAT much deficit, compared to what it makes every year. Very frustrating.

Of course, it still needs to be sensible, don't get me wrong. I don't agree with the idea that paying people to dig holes and fill them up again is a good fiscal policy, as FDR's economic adviser asserted.

As for ignorance and what have you - really, for the system to work at it's best, people need to communicate with their local representatives, the ones that matter in your daily life, rather than watch the national level a gripe about how shitty things are. I'm a recent convert to this idea myself, admittedly, and since I'm pretty damn satisfied with how things are going in my state (Which has managed to contain the economic crisis to the best of it's abilities) I haven't actually done this myself, and part of my frustration was indeed at myself for not realizing this sooner. So, again, I apologize.
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Yohn

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To the whole Homosexuality-Bible thing:

If you want to really get technical, as far as relationships in the Bible go, etc. it also says that if a woman is widowed and the husband has an unmarried brother than she is to marry him.

If "Christians" are going to be hardcore for one issue than they need to know what's in that book they tote around. The should also know, too, that as Christians some laws were made null after the shroud in the temple was torn after Christ's death (as a result of the earthquake). Whether the whole act of mansex is included in this is yet to be determined, but if they're going to follow the laws that closely, then they also find that owning a pet rabbit (or general association with rabbits) is a sin as well as the general consumption of tasty seafood.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Milan Fiori":15k4kre5]So clearly either women just didn't matter, or the writters just enjoyed their girl on girl action.

Well, it's not like women even mattered back then, other than to make babies.

These laws were written after the exodus to keep the tribe together and unified. Homosexuality was probably an issue back then because it doesn't cause reproduction, same as with a lot of other commandments. The Hebrew leaders probably said "hey, why bone your best friend when you can make babies with her?" and said God told them homosexual sex is forbidden. There are examples of Hebrew officials in the Bible doing homosexual acts though, but not much of course. Like King David with Saul's son Jonathan, for example. He wasn't a flamming queen but it happened.

Umm anyway, aside from that. 2012 Republican predictions? Palin wouldn't make it past New Hamsphire. I'm guessing either Jon Huntsman Jr or Bobby Jindal, the latter had a fundraiser in Iowa(coincidence?) a little while ago. Having Jindal on the GOP ticket would be funny considering his skin colour and how Obama was treated for his...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The only thing we can be sure of at this point is that Nader will run. And lose.
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Yohn

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Admiral Ackbar":17tib87j]The only thing we can be sure of at this point is that Nader will run. And lose.



This is a shame, as I actually really love Nader. ;_;
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Admiral Ackbar":2iu3rieb]The only thing we can be sure of at this point is that Nader will run. And lose.


Nader is really liberal on some issues, and really conservative on others, he would have cross appeal if only he wasn't a third party.

The state of third party chances in so many countries is almost shameful.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The only way I can see an elephant getting into the White house in the near future is if Zombie Hannibal (a good friend of mine) decided to attack America.

The republican party is a mess. I've heard good things about Jindal, but he looks identical to Palin in far too many ways, save for the scathing incompetency.
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