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The Armenian Genocide
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HarmonianHiccup

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Having it recognized officially is nice for the people who still suffer the consequences, but I also can't see that making a huge political deal out of it is going to make anything better. In fact, it being officially recognized makes no difference in the world to me--like I said before, slapping some label on it doesn't change the fact that it was HORRIBLE and should never be repeated.

The one advantage to official recognition is that it's less likely to be forgotten if it's made into an "event" in the political eyes.

The whole political scene everywhere is making me sick anyway--this is just one more thing on the pile. :/
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Zonder wrote:

The reason Turkey can't get into the E.U. is because of suspected human rights violations. Turkey banned Kurdish language from being spoken in public up until 1991, and as recently as June of this year several public officials were removed from office in Turkey for giving government services in several different languages, including Kurdish, when 72% of the population spoke Kurdish (Source). Kurdish language is still very much Taboo in Turkey, and can't be used at all in government. Kurds are also forbidden to form their own political party within Turkey.



Well, i think that you're making an oversimplification here.

First thing, You are absolutely correct that human right issues are a big concern for Turkey if it wants to go in the European Union. But it's not the only reason. The Armenian Genocide is another issue that bars Turkey from the EU. While there are mainly issues regarding the nature of democracy in Turkey as well, the economy, religion and other ascpects affect Turkey's would-be membership into the EU.
If you look at the GDP per capita of Turkey (something like $9,000), this is one of the lowest compared to other European nations, despite having an overall economy that even surpasses that of the Netherlands. And this is also despite the fact that Turkey's economic growth is higher than most Eurpean countries, if not all of them.
While religion is not considered an issue by the nations' leaders, a number of anti-Islamic politicians are spokespeople have opposed Turkey's membership into the EU.
Cyprus has also raised some concerns of the realtions of Turkey with the EU, but i am not all the clear about this issue. But Greece has voted for Turkey to be admitted into the EU in hopes to solve this dispute on better terms.
And then there is the question of how European Turkey really is, culturally, geographically and historically. From the second point, only 3% of Turkey lies in continental Europe.
It looks like a huge rant to me, but i think the point was made that there are lots and lots of issues that Turkey has to deal with.


Number two...

Quote:
Turkey does things like this because it wants to suppress and eliminate Kurdish culture, and it has been trying to do things like this and worse since Turkey was first created after WWI.


Well, just as any nation is born, when Turkey became a republic, it was led by a nationalist party. It was pushing for a Turkey for Turks. It's most likely one of the things that led to the Armenian genocide. But Because of this policy, the official stance is that all Kurds are Turks. So, as Turks, they must speak Turkish and give up their Kurdish culture. So yeah, that just made thigns worse. I was reading some pages relating to Kurds, and i can tell you that the vast majority of them, in forums or on paper, have a dislike of Turks, and understandably so, and if there is one thigns they hate more than the Turkish government, it's Saddam Hussein's government. But that's probably for another thread.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sai wrote:
It's not as if Turkey is attacking Armenians today. Look, I'm not here to say what Turkey did then was excusable, nor should the US condone any such action.


It's also not as if Turkey could get away with attacking Armenians today. In Turkey, now I think I read this somewhere, but I could be wrong, it is pretty much against the law recognizing that this genocide occurred, or at the very least, calling it a genocide. And even not written in the legislation, the public discrimination against dissent is deplorable enough. There is still racial tension, and it is bigoted and awful on the part of the Turks.

Quote:
First [Pelosi] tries to undermine the president by traveling to Syria as a diplomat, then she's trying to cry foul at Turkey, who happens to be a VERY close ally of the US. And is probably the most progressive nation in the Middle East.


Turkey is not a close ally to the US, though we are allies, I would certainly not describe our relationship as close. I would argue we have roughly about as good a relationship with Turkey as we do with Saudi Arabia. Also, Israel, not Turkey, is the most progressive nation in the Middle East. After Israel it's probably the United Arab Emirates. Turkey may call themselves a democracy, but that doesn't really mean it's legitimate. Turkey squanders its resources corrupting its democracy, whereas the United Arab Emirates gear their efforts towards a genuinely healthy society. Democracy is just a word if it's not followed through with.

Quote:
Not only is this a mixed-message, this kicks the Democratic Party square in the nuts, after they're tying to "gain respect overseas" for Bush pissing off 90% of the world.


I do not see your point. This really only pisses off Turkey. The point of this bill is to get the international community to recognize what happened. This brings us closer to the Armenians as well as others in the middle east, and perhaps as well as developed nations, who see Turkey is obviously wrong and self-interested about the issue. Russia admits Holodomor, the United States admits the Trail of Tears and the My Lai Massare, Germany admits the Holocaust, Spain admits the Spanish Inquisition, even Cambodia recognizes their genocide under Pol Pot. How does Turkey have any legitimacy denying theirs? And it's not as though it didn't happen. Turkey set up special committees of criminals released from maximum security prisons for the express purpose of "escorting" Armenian women and children from their homes.
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Sai Fujiwara

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I think you misunderstand my point a little bit. I already said this once, so I might as well say it again. I'm not defending Turkey, nor what happened in the past. Turkey is FAR from some "human rights bastion" that you seem to think that I'm trying to imply about them. I don't think we should keep quiet about what happened so much as, we DO NOT need to legislate this, nor make a foriegn policy issue out of it. It is pointless for us, and it only serves to divide us and Turkey, in a time when we need to mend relationships with middle eastern nations not named Israel.
Tony Stark wrote:
It's also not as if Turkey could get away with attacking Armenians today. In Turkey, now I think I read this somewhere, but I could be wrong, it is pretty much against the law recognizing that this genocide occurred, or at the very least, calling it a genocide. And even not written in the legislation, the public discrimination against dissent is deplorable enough. There is still racial tension, and it is bigoted and awful on the part of the Turks.

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure. Turkey could get away with a lot more than you think. Look at North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Sudan, and... Well countless other nations. Not all are guilty of crimes such as genocide, but all have serious human rights issues in them, and I would say that Turkey is probably better than most of the nations that I just mentioned in terms of human rights. And if you don't think they could get away with genocide today. Look at Sudan.
Tony Stark wrote:
Turkey is not a close ally to the US, though we are allies, I would certainly not describe our relationship as close. I would argue we have roughly about as good a relationship with Turkey as we do with Saudi Arabia. Also, Israel, not Turkey, is the most progressive nation in the Middle East. After Israel it's probably the United Arab Emirates. Turkey may call themselves a democracy, but that doesn't really mean it's legitimate. Turkey squanders its resources corrupting its democracy, whereas the United Arab Emirates gear their efforts towards a genuinely healthy society. Democracy is just a word if it's not followed through with.

I would say Turkey is a closer ally to us than Saudi Arabia, and they also are a far, far more progressive nation, with less human rights issues. We've had an air base there since before we had one in Saudi Arabia, and our relationship goes back to the Cold War, considering that they are a part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). They aren't as progressive as Israel, but they share a distinct difference from Middle Eastern nations in the fact that they are a Jewish State, and not an Islamic one.

Turkey is NOT a perfect democracy by any means. Do you REALLY think the United States is either, though? Turkey has it's issues to work out. So do we. The United States has a far, far better record on human rights, but look at what happened in New Orleans when Katrina hit. We're far from perfect, and we don't have the right to be issuing mandates on other nations. As long as Turkey isn't killing people, and is working towards improving their human rights record... Which they must, if they ever with to become part of the EU... Then America should just butt-out.
Tony Stark wrote:
I do not see your point. This really only pisses off Turkey. The point of this bill is to get the international community to recognize what happened. This brings us closer to the Armenians as well as others in the middle east, and perhaps as well as developed nations, who see Turkey is obviously wrong and self-interested about the issue. Russia admits Holodomor, the United States admits the Trail of Tears and the My Lai Massare, Germany admits the Holocaust, Spain admits the Spanish Inquisition, even Cambodia recognizes their genocide under Pol Pot. How does Turkey have any legitimacy denying theirs? And it's not as though it didn't happen. Turkey set up special committees of criminals released from maximum security prisons for the express purpose of "escorting" Armenian women and children from their homes.

The point is two-fold. First, the Democratic party stressed improving global relations in the 2004 election, and that was supposed to be a strong point for voting for John Kerry. Now, the same political organization is seeking to alienate one of our longest and closest allies in the Middle East. Sure, we'll always have Israeli support, but we need to worry about being friends with more than JUST one militarily & economically strong nation in the region

The second point of my post is to point out that Pelosi is a stupid radical, much like Bush, who should not have any position of leadership in the US government.

I have to agree that Turkey has no basis, nor right, to deny what happened back then. I think they should own up to it, and admit responsibility.

HOWEVER, it is not OUR place to tell them to do so, nor to pass legislation that will destroy relations with a close ally. Sure, it seems like the "right" and "Happy-go-lucky" thing to do, that will make rainbows and happy elves appear and everything will be better.... You know, formally recognizing the evil, but the world isn't black and white, and this is just a stupid call that won't accomplish anything besides pissing off Turkey, which is something we should not do at all. If this could un-do or prevent something that already happened, I'd be for it. But, it really doesn't accomplish anything. Does this increase our GDP, Make EVERY OTHER NATION love us to little bits, and will it make Turkey say. "You know what? Nancy Pelosi is right. We were bastards back in the day, and we're sorry."

Fuck no it won't. And anyone who thinks it will doesn't know jack shit about the real world.

I guess that's my third point. :P

If Nancy Pelosi was really interested in spreading knowledge about the Armenian Genocide, she wouldn't be lobbying on Capitol Hill to get some "political victory" over Bush and the Republicans. She'd be writing books, making films, studying, and raising money to open a museum that educates people about what really happened. But, wait... She's not doing that, is she?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While I do not really like Pelosi, and I do not agree with this resolution either, though I will defend its ideal, I disagree with much of what you just wrote.

I disagree with this resolution because it comes at one of the worst possible times. Not only is the peculiar Iraq situation already complicated with Turkish interest, but so is our intention to create a Kurdistan. Kurds are a 10% minority in Iraq currently, which leads to a lot of Kurds, usually due to discrimination or oppression, amongst other things, attacking a lot the other sects in Iraq. Turkey also has a Kurdish minority, but it is a much higher 30%. Turkey has tried to "subdue" Kurdish culture for years, but this Kurdistan thing creates a problem for them, as they feel it could cause the Kurds in Turkey to think they can do a similar thing. Turkey and Iraq have done some awful things to the Kurds in the past (and, to be fair, so have the Kurds), but if actions continue as they are, I fear that the resolution along with our Iraq plans could make things a whole lot worse for the Kurds. Who knows, this time Kurds could be the ones Turkey denies a genocide about.

So, yeah, the situation may be too complicated to pass the resolution as of now, but it is not necessarily because we value Turkey so much, because I frankly do not think they are that important of an ally.

Sai wrote:
Oh, I wouldn't be so sure. Turkey could get away with a lot more than you think. Look at North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Sudan, and... Well countless other nations. Not all are guilty of crimes such as genocide, but all have serious human rights issues in them, and I would say that Turkey is probably better than most of the nations that I just mentioned in terms of human rights. And if you don't think they could get away with genocide today. Look at Sudan.


I am so sure. Armenia is its own nation -- there are only 40,000 to 70,000 Armenians living in Turkey, trying something like that on the greater Armenian population now is an act of war. Those nations get away with internal conflicts due to sovereignty.

Quote:
I would say Turkey is a closer ally to us than Saudi Arabia, and they also are a far, far more progressive nation, with less human rights issues. We've had an air base there since before we had one in Saudi Arabia, and our relationship goes back to the Cold War, considering that they are a part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). They aren't as progressive as Israel, but they share a distinct difference from Middle Eastern nations in the fact that they are a Jewish State, and not an Islamic one.


We certainly have been allies with them for longer, and you are right, they are more progressive. However, we do not really have all that much to gain from trading with them. Saudi Arabia is much more important to us in that aspect, so we make a special effort to stay on good terms with them. Comparing our relationships with those respective nations, I admit, was unfair. But, I would not really say we have a better relationship with Turkey, really. They are not one of our central allies.

Quote:
Turkey is NOT a perfect democracy by any means. Do you REALLY think the United States is either, though? Turkey has it's issues to work out. So do we. The United States has a far, far better record on human rights, but look at what happened in New Orleans when Katrina hit. We're far from perfect, and we don't have the right to be issuing mandates on other nations. As long as Turkey isn't killing people, and is working towards improving their human rights record... Which they must, if they ever with to become part of the EU... Then America should just butt-out.


My point was that Turkey has almost no business labeling their government democracy. Human rights is only one part of it. They may be a progressive nation as far as the Middle East goes, but they still have a lot of catching up to do.

While a part of me shares the view that the United States should butt out, who then should stand up for the Armenians, who have not gotten any justice or recognition or repirations for what was done to them. Instead they are met with a Turkish conspiracy, who again supresses them. A resolution by the United States, which does not really legislate anything, it just is pretty much a statement to the world, unifies the international community to begin recognizing this action. The point really is not to make Turkey change its mind right away, but bring it to the forefront of the rest of the world's mind.

Quote:
Does this increase our GDP, Make EVERY OTHER NATION love us to little bits, and will it make Turkey say. "You know what? Nancy Pelosi is right. We were bastards back in the day, and we're sorry."


It does not make every other nation love us, but it helps us with Armenia, and a few other Middle Eastern nations, who do not like Turkey.

Another thing is that Turkey, for all they talk, really won't do anything against us. It really will hardly change our relationship with Turkey at all, I do not think. The United States is an important ally to have, if they revoke that, they lose a lot more than we do, especially considering we have a lot more friends in the EU than they do. Sure, perhaps it will make them a little sore at us, but sooner or later, they will have to recognize the Armenian genocide. Part of the idea of this resolution is that survivors are still alive, doing it later and they will be dead. So, sooner is naturally preferable. And again, they need us a lot more than we need them.

Pelosi is not a great leader, no. And she is a radical, but I do not think you should look at this issue as egregious because Pelosi did it or find it to be a voice of the whole democratic party (because democrats are split on this actually). The idea is not all bad, really.
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Starslasher

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I thought that it was time to bump this thread back again, for those who are interested. Why? [url=http://www.sundayszaman.com/sunday/detaylar.do?loa d=detay&link=161835:7s732zzi]Because of a little bit of news[/url:7s732zzi].

Briefly, there is a website in turkish called [url:7s732zzi]http://www.ozurdiliyoruz.com/[/url:7s732zzi]. It translates roughly to "We apologize". On it, are a number of signitaries, agreing to the following decalaration:
Quote:
My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathize with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers and sisters. I apologize to them.


It has gained about 13,000 signiatures.

Now, as you might imagine, there was a lot of opposition to this website. The Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan is opposed to this move, saying that "there isn't anything to apologise for", because for them, it's not a genocide that took place. And other members of the Turkish Parliament are claiming that the intellectuals who started this website are being disrespectul to Turkey and its people, and other such stuff.

Any comments.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It made me remember a recent Interview with Orhan Pamuk at an Indonesian Magazine 'Tempo'. He said that he's one of the few that recognized the killing and dare to say it in public. And he got a lot of problem from that. It seems that this one topic is one of the greatest turkish taboo, and people there are afraid to say anything opposing the popular belief.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That seems to be true, especially in light of the assassination of Hrant Dink, a Armenian Turkish human rights activist. But it still caused a lot of outrage in Turkey.

However, some Armenians were not entirely happy with the wording of the apology, since "genocide" is nowhere to be found, suggessting that the intellectuals who signed it does not believe that it was a genocide. Nonetheless they were happy with the step forward.
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