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The Armenian Genocide
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Tony Stark

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: The Armenian Genocide Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Recently the House of Foreign Affairs Committee of the United States congress, in a 27-21 decision, passed a resolution to identify the actions that happened during World War I to the Armenians as genocide. The Bush administration has called for the House to decide against this resolution. Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi has decided to keep going with this resolution and will take it as far as possible.

Most members of government against the resolution are being very careful not to say whether or not they think the Armenian genocide happened, but rather that it is not the time to pass this resolution, as Turkey is essential to our operations in Iraq. While perhaps it is not the US' place to make this resolution, I certainly think that a great tragedy like the Armenian Genocide should be remembered as one, regardless of "the right time in our political climate."

The other day, I began to speak my opinion on this matter to some Turkish people, who got very upset as they completely deny the actions taken there as genocide. I then took to having arguments on Facebook with people. It turns out there is a rather large group on there titled, "The Armenian Genocide is HUGE LIE."

After doing a great amount of research into the matter, all evidence I have discovered has suggested that what happened there should indeed be called a genocide, and I have found no legitimate evidence to the contrary. If one looks at the Geneva Convention on the requisites for genocide, all of them, more or less appeared in this matter.

What do you guys think?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldn't have known about the genocide if it weren't for System of a Down.

But why has it taken them THIS long to get around to recognizing it? Either way, it is indeed probably the worst time to recognize it - our relations with Turkey are shit right now with them bombarding Kurds in Iraq.
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Leb

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The United States (as a whole) isn't exactly the only one being slow. Very few nations up to this point have recognized this incident as genocide, and I can only assume a major reason is because of how much of a non-issue it is some 80 years later.
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Calvin

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Leb wrote:
The United States (as a whole) isn't exactly the only one being slow. Very few nations up to this point have recognized this incident as genocide, and I can only assume a major reason is because of how much of a non-issue it is some 80 years later.


I don't know, with Turkey attempting to go into northern Iraq and subdue Kurdish rebels, I think at this juncture it is a pretty important issue morally. I haven't been keeping up with news too much lately, so I don't know if Turkey has actually gone into Northern Iraq yet or not--but Turkey has a history of Kurdish suppression as well and has attempted "cultural genocide" in the past in their own country in regards to Kurds. For a long time it was illegal in Turkey speak Kurdish or to even say that you were Kurdish. I've no idea if it is still that way today.

My point is Turkey doesn't have a good history in regards to the acceptance of other cultures around them, and with them trying to go in and take out Kurdish rebels, I think it is the perfect time for the US to recognize that fact--if indeed the genocide did happen (I've no idea, I haven't looked into that subject).

Personally, what I do know about Turkish and Kurdish history leads me to have little faith that Turkey would be able to go into Northern Iraq to take on Kurds whilst following Geneva Conventions. Granted, a ruling on what happened to the Armenians 80 years ago doesn't tangibly effect anything, but there is something to be said about recognizing the truth of things--especially when it hits so close to home in regards to current events.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This also comes at an inconvenient time what with Turkey also beginning to make a bid to join the European Union. They're still in the ground stages of it but they have expressed great interest in getting in on that. It definitely has to be an interesting time to be a Turk.
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Tony Stark

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The interest Turkey has in Iraq is to stop a Kurdistan from forming. In Turkey they have a 30% Kurdish minority, so their interest in Iraq is very tied to their interest in subduing Kurdistan. Still, some are worried that this time it might be the Kurds rolled up into carpets, but I do not feel this will happen, and I especially do not feel a Kurdistan will take place.

EDIT:
I do not think Turkey will be a member of the EU for some time, if ever at all. I think their hopes of joining the EU are delusions.
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Leb

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

They're pissed at the Kurds because they keep attacking convoys on the border.

I don't see much of a connection. That's like saying slavery in America should be brought back up if we attacked some African country.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shouldn't Congress be focusing on running the country rather than legislating history?

Tony Stark wrote:
EDIT:
I do not think Turkey will be a member of the EU for some time, if ever at all. I think their hopes of joining the EU are delusions.


It'll probably be five or more years, Turkey is gradually moving towards the standards set by EU members, even if they are still "backwards" in a lot of areas.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Zonder wrote:

I don't know, with Turkey attempting to go into northern Iraq and subdue Kurdish rebels, I think at this juncture it is a pretty important issue morally. I haven't been keeping up with news too much lately, so I don't know if Turkey has actually gone into Northern Iraq yet or not--but Turkey has a history of Kurdish suppression as well and has attempted "cultural genocide" in the past in their own country in regards to Kurds. For a long time it was illegal in Turkey speak Kurdish or to even say that you were Kurdish. I've no idea if it is still that way today.


They have not entered northern Iraq with any substantial force, the current escalation in the matter is that the majority of the populace want Turkey to provide military action against the Kurds "pillaging" them yet the Government met with Ms Rice to discuss what diplomatic measures can be taken. The jist of the meeting was that Turkey want the USA (who have a substantial stake in the progress of Iraq) to pull their fingers out or Turkey will be forced to increase it's military presence along the border.

Adding cause for concern to this is that 8 Turkish soldiers are missing feared captured by the insurgents, a couple are dead and since the insurgents called for a ceasefire Turkey are demanding the release of the soldiers because they drop the option of a military strike. Since I can't be bothered editing this post, this tension goes back at least as far as May when a heavily armed PKK (Kurdish Workers Party) issued death threats to the other political parties to withdraw candidates. Turkey, NATO and the EU view the PKK as a terrorist organisation and it is these individuals mainly pissing off Turkey at this point in this current tension.

Effectively what happened is that now, with Iraq in a state of continuing flux Turkey can no longer cross the border, destroy PKK bases and leave (as they have done in the past) since it would be detrimental to the Iraq state. So at least in the current capacity you can't blame Turkey for being dicks because they are playing things by the books and putting with quite a lot.

From the news last night, Turkey is set to meet with the "President" of Iraq relatively soon to see what can be worked out.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Leb wrote:
They're pissed at the Kurds because they keep attacking convoys on the border.

I don't see much of a connection. That's like saying slavery in America should be brought back up if we attacked some African country.


That might be applicable if there were still slaves in America. The connection is obviously there, even if you fail to see it--Turkey has in the past and still is taking measures to supress Kurdish culture. So whether they have legitimate reasons for attacking the PKK or not, the history over the last 80 or so years between Kurds and Turks makes the world feel uneasy.

The reason Turkey can't get into the E.U. is because of suspected human rights violations. Turkey banned Kurdish language from being spoken in public up until 1991, and as recently as June of this year several public officials were removed from office in Turkey for giving government services in several different languages, including Kurdish, when 72% of the population spoke Kurdish (Source). Kurdish language is still very much Taboo in Turkey, and can't be used at all in government. Kurds are also forbidden to form their own political party within Turkey.

Turkey does things like this because it wants to suppress and eliminate Kurdish culture, and it has been trying to do things like this and worse since Turkey was first created after WWI.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

One other thing to add about this issue is that speaking for in support of the Armenian genocie is criminal on the base that it insults "Turkishness". This example is given with the issue that Orhan Pamuk, a Nobel Price laureate, who spoke on the killings of Armenian and Kurds, and for that he was prosecuted by the Turkish government.


I have read a couple of booklets which was more pro-Turkish on the issue of the Armenian Genocide. It overall came to the conclusion that while it does not deny that there were Armenians massacred in Turkey, there were also accounts of about as many Turks killed in the conflicts, and claimed that the massacres were not executed from orders from the Ottoman/Turkish government, and that it could not be classed as a "genocide".
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Tony Stark

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Starslasher wrote:
It overall came to the conclusion that while it does not deny that there were Armenians massacred in Turkey, there were also accounts of about as many Turks killed in the conflicts, and claimed that the massacres were not executed from orders from the Ottoman/Turkish government, and that it could not be classed as a "genocide".


This is the most common argument I have heard as well. When looking this up on Wikipedia (and then on most of the links), it seems to follow the Geneva Convention's steps to genocide. Other deniers also argue that the Armenians and Turks were friends during this time, and this is plainly untrue.

What bothers me most about the Turkish sentiment is that they almost unanimously make the claim that you have to look at things from both sides, which implies a modicum of neutrality, but then only examine the issue entirely from their already biased view and only support their argument with "facts" compiled by those who share their perspective. Often when cornered by this circular and, at best, absurd logic, they seek to discredit those who have done atrocities in the past, as if that is proof of anything. That is not only evasive, but altogether irrelevant and counter productive.

Solely reading from Turkish writers about the subject is like only reading tobacco studies funded by tobacco companies. They are self-serving, just like the denial of this genocide -- Turkey is the only nation that benefits from its denial, and by and large, is the only nation that claims it as a "huge lie," even though almost all third parties, with neutrality, claim the opposite.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I honestly think that this resolution is proof that Nanci Pelosi is just as stupid as Bush.

What good can come of this? I mean, we shouldn't be legislating history to begin with, and while WHEN we would do something like this isn't an issue, I fail to see what this accomplishes.

Wait, it does accomplish something. It pisses off Turkey, one of our friends and allies.

It's not as if Turkey is attacking Armenians today. Look, I'm not here to say what Turkey did then was excusable, nor should the US condone any such action. But, pointing fingers and getting our panties in a bunch... -TODAY- is NOT going to bring those people back. I think we all have a general consensus that what went on was wrong, but trying to say, "You are bad guys for doing that 80 years ago." Is just silly.

I'm no diehard Republican here, (I'm moderate, I think both parties have their share of idiots.) But, this clearly proves how stupid Pelosi is. First she tries to undermine the president by travelling to Syria as a diplomat, then she's trying to cry foul at Turkey, who happens to be a VERY close ally of the US. And is probably the most progressive nation in the Middle East.

Not only is this a mixed-message, this kicks the Democratic Party square in the nuts, after they're tying to "gain respect overseas" for Bush pissing off 90% of the world.

Too bad, they just can't "fire her" as speaker. It would do the Democratic Party - and the nation some good.

But, then again, wouldn't it be nice if the people could "fire" Bush now, as president? :P This would also help the Republican Party... And the nation.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think Genocide can ever be called a non-issue, no matter how long ago it happened.

No matter what politics say and who defines what as genocide, it doesn't change the reality of the horrible things that happened. I don't know very much about it (my knowledge of world history after 1100 AD is pretty spotty >_>), but it seems to me anyone who would try and deny it is jsut as bad as the people who try and claim that the Jewish Holocaust of WWII is phony and unimportant.
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Sai Fujiwara

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not saying we should deny it happened at all, I don't anyone to misunderstand me.

We don't need to make it a fucking law. That's my point. I don't want to seem unsympathetic and act as if this wasn't something bad or horrific, even. But, no good comes out of making this our foreign policy. It just pisses off an ally of ours, when we don't have to.

And it won't undo what DID happen. It'd be one thing if we could go back and change things, but this isn't science fiction.
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