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Saben

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree largely with UberYuber's comments and really appreciate what he said and the way he said it. He said a lot of what is on my mind, but I'll give it a shot in my own way. I would just like to say that I am shocked that it took place in Palmdale, though, my mum's boyfriend lives there and I have spent time there. Although I've never been a part of the community.

I think inprisonment should be a consequence of certain actions- when you kill someone you cause damage to society so you have a debt to return to society in return- but in particular inprisonment should be used as a preventative measure when it can be shown, beyond reasonable doubt that a person is likely to reoffend. Is this kid likely to reoffend? No! Being a killer doesn't make you more likely to be a killer and in a situation like this where it is an act of passion, quite often the remorse that comes from it makes the person less likely to re-offend! He's not like a fucking serial killer! His buttons were pushed, he went WAY too far, probably in part because of ignorance and emotions, but now he will NOT reoffend. How can I say this? Well, I once got really mad at my mum at 17. So I picked up a chair in the kitchen and I was going to hit her with it, but for a brief millisecond I did think and I smashed it into the wall instead. I had a massive amount of pent up frustration and rage at that point and it had to be released. I was at the breaking point that UberYuber was talking about. Now, I thought, I did give it that moment's thought and honestly, the only thing that stopped me from attacking my mum instead of the wall was that it was my mum and I love and respect her like mad- if it had been just about any other person, I probably would have attacked them.

Now this boy, who knows what was going through his head, what kind of issues he might have been facing internally and how he might have been feeling, and the object of his rage was right there. So he struck and the moment he did it he would have felt his rage draining, but he had enough for a second strike, thinking 'well, I've hurt the bastard now, there's no turning back,' and then he struck again. Then he would have dropped the bat thinking 'what the fuck have I done?' and from that point he would have started hating himself.

Can I say that for certain, not at all, as UberYuber says you cannot judge the actions and thoughts of others on your own experiences. But if I had been a 13-year-old kid and I had hit someone over the head with a baseball bat that would have been why and how it would have happened for me.

Now as for punishment, well, you can't take a pre-emptive approach, thinking 'he may kill again' because there is no logic in thinking this boy will kill again and if you want to lock up every potential murderer in society then you will locking up everyone. I agree with UberYuber when he says in the right situation under the right set of conditions, everyone could be a murderer. I know and I admit I could be, yet at the same time, after my show of rage on that one incidence I try my hardest to have total self-control. I never will be totally in control, though and there are some situations where I think I would slip, especially if everything else in my life or in my head had been going badly. I could commit murder, though and I think you are lying to yourself if you think you couldn't.

As for suggesting the barbaric "Eye-for-an-eye" philosophy of executing the kid for taking another life. Well that is ridiculous and achieves nothing. I'm not even going into that. But even suggesting that a teenager get an adult sentence? Well, personally I am sick and tired of the fucking double standard! How many of you believe teenagers should be considered adults when it is time to vote? How many of you believe teenagers should have equal access to alcohol? How many of you believe teenagers should be able to have sex when they choose, if they choose like an adult? Who believes that teenagers should be able to make their own decisions in life without the interferance of parents? Yet something like this happens and people are more than happy to classify a 13 year old as an adult. At the movies or at restaurants teenagers often have to pay adult prices. None of the same rights are granted to teenagers, though, yet they are held to standards almost as high as adults when it comes to such matters. I am not a teenager anymore at 20, but regardless I see it as disgusting that teenagers are tossed between the 'adult' and 'child' categories when it suits the government and when it suits parents that vote while teens (who are often more educated about issues than their parents) are given no real say in their own affairs.

You blame what the boy did on parenting, sybillous. Well, I agree that poor parenting IS rampant in our society. But that isn't what this case necessarily shows. I had an awesome mother, she was a single parent from a low income background, yet she did the best job just about any mother could do in that situation. Does that mean I could never get violent and mad, though? Not really and no amount of discipline would change that. Society on the whole I think does tend towards knee-jerk reactions. Yet, look at Japan, society there is SO considerate in a lot of ways and the mothers there (in general) really do care for their children a lot (some would argue that children need a father as well, but as a son of a single mother I'd dispute that). But in Japan there is almost an uncannily high incidence of school violence. It is very seldom involving guns, which are quite heavily controlled in Japan, but it often involves knives and other weapons. I'd say the parenting of the bullies is often more to blame than the parenting of the victims. But it is impossible to generalise these things, they do just happen without a logical cause sometimes. Emotions aren't at all logical, human beings aren't logical.

As for a punishment, though. Should the boy suffer a consequence for his actions? Well definitely. I am just highly, highly opposed to the blood thirsty view that 'someone needs to pay for the loss of life and the pain caused to the family'. Two wrongs do not make a right, after all. No amount of punishment will make the dead boy come back alive. Revenge is not an emotion that should be encouraged socially.

I am also against punishment to 'teach the boy a lesson'. I think he knows full well what he did, that it was wrong and why it was wrong. He didn't at the time, though. Anger management classes are definitely needed. Councelling is definitely needed and the kid needs to be made to feel responsible, but not guilty. From my experience self-loathing does NOT help a person overcome behavioural problems, if anything it makes it worse. The kid is having a hard enough time coping with his actions, coping with the media attention and the fear that any 13 year old would have, that he is going to be locked away for life and not be able to accomplish any of the dreams that a 13 year old has. Making him feel guilty is definitely not the key. He has a debt to society, though. He has a debt to the victims family who are themselves victims. But his debt should be repayed through his own good deeds. In this situation where remorse is felt, I personally feel it is his responsibility to become the BEST he can be and to help society as much as he can to try and help repay the debt he has incurred. And he will never make it up, but as it was truly an inexcusable act of stupidity where self-control was thrown out the window for emotion he will WANT to make it up anyway he can and he should be given the opportunity to make it up. Part of making it up may be through ostricisation where he feels like he is bad and not included in society and where he feels like he's never going to be able to get on with life. But to me, that doesn't seem to work.

Locking people up does not stop them from becoming repeat offenders. Letting them continue their crime does not stop them from becoming repeat offenders, either. So there has to be another solution and in my mind it is forcing people to feel a sense of social responsibility and social conscience so that they will want to work together, with everyone else to build society into a better place rather than a worse one. For adults who get more set in their ways this may be a harder task, but I think a 13 year old, even one who has killed, has the potential to achieve so much in the rest of their life. Even though I don't endorse killing people and in fact I don't think that feeling negative is a good thing there is something to be said of people that have been through a lot in their lives, killing someone is a big deal, this kid will grow a lot in a positive way from the experience if we let him. Demonise him though, and a demon is what he will become.
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Daniel Blackhand

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

After reading all of the opinions put forth as to this particular subject, let me give a few more of my own. A crime was committed, of that we can all agre, yet it is a fitting punishment that is in arguement here. I also stated in a previous post that I had myself been in a position at a younger age of taking a bat to someone else.

With that said, it was never my intent to kill him with the bat, but to avenge the pain he had inflicted upon my body. If I had gone thru with it, than I would have accepted whatever punishment was laid upon me. We have so muddled the waters of the justice system at least in the United States, that things are not clear. We see theses kids bringing guns to school and killing their classmates, but people always make them out to be victims of one sort or another.

Growing up after I moved to a brand new place I was heavily picked on, but that never made me want to kill someone. I have been in a situation where someone threatened to have a football team jump me. My response was to tell the guy that I would have my revenge, but never kill someone. I don't care what state of mind you are in or claim to be in, to kill another living being is unacceptable and must be punished. When you kill someone and say "Oh I was not myself or I plead temporary insanity" than you are giving people that have a problem with someone an easy way to kill them.

Now I am not saying you kill this kid because of his crime, but you must try him for the crime as an adult to set an example that we will not tolerate this kind of action.
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

precisely; to say he didn't understand right or wrong simply due to his state of mind, thereby making him not responisble is ludicrous; knowledge of right and wrong starts at a young age, as does consequence of actions. he is more than old enough to understand what he did is wrong, and that action carries a penalty. excusing him due to age or state of mind is wrong-it downplays the seriousness of his actions, painting him as a victim when he's not.

he was not in danger of harm; there was no imminent threat to his life-his actions were excessive *to say the least* and reactionary or not, still criminal. you don't take a weapon and kill someone simply because they teased, bullied you or stole your lunch. report it and let authorities deal with the trouble makers, rather than deal out vigilante justice or revenge.

it's not about an eye for an eye but making the law clear-if you commit a crime that causes death, you must pay the price for it. this kid, like so many others, shows a complete lack of judgement; getting teased? take a gun and kill them all? feeling harrassed by a member of the winning team? take a baseball bat and beat him to death.

when simply stated, it no longer paints the killer as a victim but what he truly is: a killer. the why's aren't the focus; the crime is-saying that he should be excused or receive a lesser punishment due to state of mind is a slap in the faces of the victim's family. it says that this kid's death, while tragic, was simply not his killers fault. make no mistake; the minute this kid took up the bat and swung, his choice was made and he must accept the outcome, just like anyone else who commits a crime.
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Sophita

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Njord, Uberyuber, and St. Ajora, while I respect your opinions I don't agree with them. I think I have a different criteria when I determine whether or not someone should be in jail though.

Namely, I think we have to evaluate whether this boy is a threat to others. And I believe he is. Because he took a baseball bat to a child's head with very little provocation - he wasn't defending himself, and somehow, he thought that killing - or at the very least, severely wounding - that kid was OK. There has got to be some anger issues there; that kid needs to be under supervision for the protection of himself and others. Because if he killed someone THAT offensively, with THAT little to justify it...Then he could probably kill again, IMO. That guy is a threat; he needs to be under supervision. The fact that he just "snapped" doesn't mean he isn't going to do it again; in fact, if he just "snapped", then I think he is MORE likely to do it again.

That isn't to say I don't believe he should be rehabilitated; of course he should have the finest psychologists and the like available to him so that when he comes out of prison, he will be able to become an outstanding member of society.

But I'm not keen on saying, "OK, you killed a fellow little leaguer. That's ok, Snookums; it's a bad thing, but let's just give you a slight slap on the wrist and some happy pills. Then we'll move to a whole new suburb where no one can tease snookums about his time spent in that mean ol' justice system."

The kid needs rehabilitation, but he also needs to be monitored so that this doesn't happen again. And yes, that's what Juvey (Juvenial Hall) is there for.

You can't just punish the family, society, and the school system, because, well, frankly, they're not all at fault. Teachers aren't responsible for what happens to their students after the school day is done (unless they are coaches, tutors, etc in which case they are also responsible for their students when performing those acts); this didn't happen in a school day. The family doesn't sound like it had any clue this would happen - and maybe the parents were negligent, but maybe they weren't; maybe it was a chemical reaction in his brain that made him a sociopath. *shrug* Society doesn't sound like it had a lot of shaping on this incident.

The important thing is, this kid killed someone. He planned to at the very least hurt someone badly, he took a baseball bat and beat the ever loving tar out of another kid. That kid died in a great amount of pain, no doubt. That kid needs to be punished for it; he should be rehabiltated, but he killed someone. He needs to do the time. On top of that, this kid is a threat to others and himself as is, so he really needs constant supervision that someone's parents just cannot provide.

UberYuber wrote:
Again we're totally missing the larger problem. Even if you rip this kid's arms off and beat him to death with them it won't stop this sort of thing from happening. Two months after this thing is over and done with, no one will even remember the punishment. If you let this kid off with a slap on the wrist it doesn't necessarily mean that kids are going to start killing people left and right because of the lack of capital or severe punishment. If it did mean that, then it only proves that it is not the system to blame, but the moral values of the children.


If you let this kid off with a slap on the wrist, what is to stop him from doing it again? Say Teacher Suzy gives this kid an F on his term paper; what's to stop this kid from waiting until school gets out, taking his baseball bat, and beating Ms. Suzy to death? He's shown he can't cope with something like losing a baseball game; without rehabilation, how can the kid learn to cope? And how can you say this is likely his only offense?

Someone who snaps and takes it out by MURDERING SOMEONE has some severe problems that CANNOT BE SOLVED by a simple snap on the wrist. Worse still, this kid is a threat to the public because he has issues with his anger which means that if you let him out with a slap on the wrist, HE IS A THREAT TO HIMSELF AND OTHERS. Which means he is very high at risk to kill another person, or even himself.

Quote:
You're looking at the situation wrong. It's not that it was his first offense, but it is, in all likelihood, the only one he'll ever have. It is supposed to mean that the child has some mental problems and he needs to find help to control his rage. This is a good kid. He was a good kid before this incident and he'll be a good kid in the future.


So what if he was a "good kid"? This kid FLEW OFF THE HANDLE AND KILLED SOMEONE. That's not the same thing as getting into fisticuffs; that's not the same thing as his grades going down. Killing someone for something so meager highlights a severe mental problem, and this kid needs help, and he needs supervision. A slap on the wrist isn't going to help that.

I don't see how you can see he'll be a good kid in the future; if someone can't cope with losing a baseball game, then how can they cope with losing their first girlfriend, or getting a bad grade on a test, or getting rejected for a job, or any other bad situation that comes their way?

Quote:

There is a difference in punishment between what was premeditated and a murder that simply seems to "just happen."


Murders don't just happen. He knew what he was doing. He picked up that bat with intent to harm the other kid. He hit the kids knees first so that he couldn't run. Then he him him in the head. He killed someone, and even if he didn't mean to kill him, he meant to hurt him very, very badly. I don't see how you can see this wasn't premeditated. Just because he didn't spend years planning on killing him doesn't mean that he didn't plan to do it.

It's not like he was playing around and didn't notice the kid was behind him and accidently cracked him in the head and killed him. That's an accident; that's manslaughter, not a murder.

This was murder.

If it wasn't 2 litttle boys, but was instead, say, the coaches, or 2 parents, would you still say that they deserved a slap on the wrist?

Quote:
It is horrible what happened yes, but this is not something that could not be committed by you yourself if you were put in the right situation.


Moot point, IMO. There's nothing that someone "might commit" is put into the right situation. We didn't commit it and I think most people here have lost a baseball game (or some other kind of sport) without killing someone over it. This kid murdered someone. Well-adjusted people don't do that.

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My point is that the problem is that this kid's tolerance for his inner rage was so low.


I agree, but why does that mean he shouldn't be punished?


Quote:
Until we stop trying to point fingers at whose to blame and how hard we should beat them and start focusing on why children have a lower limit to how far they can be enraged before snapping, this sort of thing will continue to plague society.


Bottom line, the kid is to blame. Might there be other factors involved? Yes. But this kid picked up that bat and killed someone. He did it. Therefore, he's to blame. Simple.

And frankly, I think this thing should be done on a case to case basis. The far majority of children grow up without managing to kill someone. For kids like this, there is obviously a problem, and they need help for it, but society also needs protection from them.

Quote:
The child doesn't necessarily have to be a bad kid, or show signs of being psychotic in order to kill someone. Everyone has the potential to murder and EVERYONE will murder if they are driven to the point where rage changes their mindset.


Personally speaking, I've been plenty mad, and I've never, EVER had the idea to kill someone, even when I was so mad I was literally seeing red. I'd be FAR FAR FAR more likely to kill myself or let someone else kill me before I'd ever, EVER want to kill another person. At my angriest, all I want to do is scream and sob. But that's just me.

And again, it's the moot point. Everyone has the potential to murder, but not everyone does it. Everyone has the potential to commit burglary, too, and might do so if pushed to the breaking point, but not everyone does it. Does this mean thiefs shouldn't be punished for stealing other people's possessions?

This kid DID commit a murder. He broke a law. Shouldn't he be punished for it?

Quote:
Extreme rage in a person actually causes a chemical imbalance in the brain that is not the same for everyone (meaning rage affects everyone differently and possibly at an EXPONENTIAL level of difference) therefore saying that you can control your fists in a fight DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE ELSE. Just because you don't pull the trigger doesn't mean the next person can hold back and it doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with the way they were raised or their moral values.


This kid wasn't in a situation where this "extreme rage" should be triggered. He lost a little league game. Plenty of people have. He got teased. Plenty of those same people have. Most people don't go into musou mode and start killing other people. This kid did. There is nothing about the situation that should have provoked this response.

This kid has a mental problem, and he needs help for that, and he needs to be isolated from society until he can get that problem under control. What is so henious about that?

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It pains me to see what everyone is saying because this is EXACTLY why nothing is being solved. It's not due to the lack of punishment, but our lack of understanding. With that being said, it doesn't mean that his behavior can be excused. It does mean that the LEAST of our problems is the punishment of this child.


I feel bad for his problems, and I agree, that this kid's punishment is probably the least of societys problems. Personally, I think solving the gap between the rich and the poor and ending poverty is likely the highest of societies problems, but that's irrelevant. This topic isn't about "What are the worst ills of society?"; this topic is about a kid who killed another one over a little league game.

UberYuber wrote:
Sure and let's just let the endless cycle of tragedies such as this continue because we're more focusing on punishment than prevention. This isn't some psychopathic killer that committed this crime. This is your next door neighbor, your brother, your friend... and if it wasn't this time, what keeps it from being him next time? It's not you, because you're more worried about punishing the troubled than keeping them from becoming that way.


Why are the two mutually exclusive? This is a tragedy; this kid killed someone, he broke a law, he knew it was wrong, he has to pay the piper. I feel bad for him,and I feel bad for the kid that was killed. But prevention has nothing to do with it. It's not like we're devoting all our money to punishing this kid instead of preventing crime.

And yes, there could be a murderer in my neighborhood or family or friends, but that point is irrelevant to the discussion. There could be a murderer anywhere. You could be a murderer. I could be a murderer. So what? How does that change this one case?

And becoming a human guinea pig in some lab sounds like just another way to screw this kid up. How is that going to help him learn to control his feelings so he doesn't wind up killing someone? Involuntairy participation in research violates quite a few basic rights. 0.0 Perhaps give him a plea bargin where he can spend less years in jail if he participates in studies with his disorder, but don't force him into research. Jail/Juvey has the proper resources to help people reform; some lab doesn't.
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Last edited by Sophita on Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't know about Njord (I've been skimming due to the long lengthy posts I've missed), but I have stated that rehabilitation, as well as access to counsolling is the way to deal with this boy, not the death sentence, nor the life sentence, nor just just leaving him in jail with no effort to bring him back to reality.
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Sage

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

UberYuber wrote:
FF6Sage wrote:

About punishment, the cost of committing a crime must be greater than the benefit to keep most from committing crimes. If we let everyone off or reduce the sentence, then we'll be sending the message that if you kill someone and are below a certain age, you get a lower cost to yourself.



Again we're totally missing the larger problem. Even if you rip this kid's arms off and beat him to death with them it won't stop this sort of thing from happening. Two months after this thing is over and done with, no one will even remember the punishment. If you let this kid off with a slap on the wrist it doesn't necessarily mean that kids are going to start killing people left and right because of the lack of capital or severe punishment. If it did mean that, then it only proves that it is not the system to blame, but the moral values of the children.


UberYuber wrote:
Just as I said before... Looking for deterrents is absurd.


I'm just trying to draw a connection between punishment and crime. It's very clear that if you make an action/item illegal, fewer people will violate that law. This is due to many factors including the fact that many people will not break the law. Also, having higher punishments means said criminal will have more to lose by committing a crime (unless he/she has nothing to lose to start with) and therefore, will be less likely to commit a crime. Individual examples can be used to bash this, but on the average and society as a whole, it is correct. Looking for deterrents may be absurd, but having them is certainly not absurd, but necessary.

Njord wrote:
FF6Sage, that child didn't come from another planet, and didn't grew up in an isolated place, his life took place in his society, and family.

So, if that society made him what he is, then why shouldn't we punish the society and everyone who helped making that child.

Children don't learn things from nothing; they learn from what around them, if that child became murderer then everyone around him helped in making him one.

So, we can't put the full responsibility on that child alone, everyone is to blame


I agree that everything around a person makes the person, but not everything around him has the same impact on him. There are bound to be many things around him that had far more significant impact than others. However, I had nothing to do with him. I influenced him not; not now, not ever. I never met him and was never near him. I do not want to be responsible (and am not resonsible) for something/someone I had nothing to do with at all. I am not putting all the blame at the kid's feet, just most of it. If he can't control his anger, it's not my fault. I'm not going to speculate as to what went through his mind since I will never know and never care to know in all honesty. Whatever his reasoning/lack thereof, it's not my problem, it's his and the legal system's now. What I'm getting out of your reasoning is punish everyone for the actions of one person. No offense, but to me, that's not right. It's like how a whole class of students is punished because of one kid breaking a rule. I didn't like it when I was in grade school and I don't like it now. Should the whole U.S. be punished for this one kid and every other criminal out there?

As far as the kid's punishment is concerned, I'm against involuntary experimentation. That violates more rights than prison does. Other than that, as long as he's punished in some fashion, I don't really care what it is.
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Daniel Blackhand

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While I beleive that this kid should face jail time, I also beleive that he is still young enough to be able to realize he did wrong and make amends for it by doing his time. There is another problem however, regarding his punishment. I think that he is too young to be put in prison and would be in serious danger there, yet juvenile hall seems to be to lenient of a punishment. We as a people need to press the government to come up with a suitable place for these young offenders, that commit heinous crimes.
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lord Dredd wrote:

When you kill someone and say "Oh I was not myself or I plead temporary insanity" than you are giving people that have a problem with someone an easy way to kill them.
Now I am not saying you kill this kid because of his crime, but you must try him for the crime as an adult to set an example that we will not tolerate this kind of action.


If by the punishment you are making a loophole where it is ok to kill someone, then the punishment is not the problem, it is the moral attitude of someone who thinks it is ok just because he will not be hanged. If the consequences were actually thought of before this kid swung the bat, he probably wouldn't have done it. That's not to say that the consequences would prevent him from doing so, but if he actually had time or just the presence of mind for rational thought, he wouldn't be in a rage in the first place. Thus I have to consider what you are saying to be false.

Sybillious wrote:

to say he didn't understand right or wrong simply due to his state of mind, thereby making him not responisble is ludicrous; knowledge of right and wrong starts at a young age, as does consequence of actions. he is more than old enough to understand what he did is wrong, and that action carries a penalty. excusing him due to age or state of mind is wrong-it downplays the seriousness of his actions, painting him as a victim when he's not.


I'm not aruging that he is a victim or that he doesn't comprehend the severity of what he did. I am arguing the fact that in a heightened state of emotion that can lead to rage... everyone can lose control. That does not mean that it is and/or should not be punishable... but more that the wrong problem is being addressed. Prevention is more important. Trying to develop an understanding to why people do what they do is something that is all to rare in this world, but I've already had that discussion with you in a thread talking about war. It seems this makes two threads you condemn before attempting to consider.

Sophita wrote:

Namely, I think we have to evaluate whether this boy is a threat to others. And I believe he is.


Absolutely he is. So is every other person, man, woman, or child that lets their anger get the best of them. You are absolutely right and I NEVER contested this.

Quote:

But I'm not keen on saying, "OK, you killed a fellow little leaguer. That's ok, Snookums; it's a bad thing, but let's just give you a slight slap on the wrist and some happy pills. Then we'll move to a whole new suburb where no one can tease snookums about his time spent in that mean ol' justice system."


I'm not being sarcastic. Who suggested this?

Quote:

If you let this kid off with a slap on the wrist, what is to stop him from doing it again?


I never said we should let him off as such.

Why is this so hard to understand?

What I said was... if children are not charged equally as adults for comitting murder.. AND BECUASE OF THIS... go out and kill people. Then it is not the fault of the system of punishment, BUT THE MORAL VALUES OF THE CHILDREN THAT DEEM THINGS WITH RELAXED PUNISHMENTS ARE OK. This is so simple that I just can't understand why you can't understand. I don't want this kid to get off with a slap on the wrist. What I am saying is that the punishment should not be the ONLY thing keeping you from killing your neighbor. If it is the only thing, than the REAL problem is your value of life and morality.

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So what if he was a "good kid"? This kid FLEW OFF THE HANDLE AND KILLED SOMEONE. That's not the same thing as getting into fisticuffs;


Here I disagree. It is the same as a fist fight. It just escalated to the next level. I'm going to go ahead and assume that you've never been beaten to a pulp and at the same time have never beaten someone to an inch of their lives. Simply, because you are female. While I understand it is entirely possible for women to be violent and act in that manner, I can tell by your words that I'd be correct to do so.

I, on the other hand, have experienced fights that you proably would not believe. I have been beaten with fists and weapons alike and I have hit with weapons just as I've hit guys the same with my hands. Reactions are something that can never be really controlled. If someone comes at you, you fight them or you don't. Just because you don't doesn't mean the next person will. Just because I use my fists, doesn't mean the next person won't use a bat. And just because I stop before I kill him doesn't mean he could do the same when the bat is in his hands. Sometimes it is a decision that you make. Sometimes when the bat is already in your hands, you just swing.

A fight is a fight. It is not necessarily determined that the child got into the fight with the pure intention of killing the other boy. In fact, with my experience I'd say that wasn't his intention at all. What more than likely happened was the fight started and he didn't realize what he was doing until he dropped the last blow on the guy.

I've seen men down on the ground that will be kicked and kicked until someone stops the fight. It has nothing to do with wanting to kill another human being. It has to do with primitive tendencies to become enraged when pushed too far. There are men, friends of mine, that will be the most cool composed people you've ever met, and then when a fight breaks out, they turn into another person. My good friend Justin is only 5'4" and one of the nicest guys I know, but I had to literally pull him off a bigger guy because he still beating his head against the ground after he was down. He's a sick and twisted individual when he is pushed and yes that is very scary, but the fact remains that he is a good guy when he's not fighting and if we could JUST fix that part of him before the time comes when someone is not there to pull him off, things would not change. If someone did happen to come at him while he had a weapon, I would be shocked to see the other man not get hit with it. It's the way we all react when pushed to fight that makes the difference. I personally believe that men are more succeptable to rage because we are pushed to fight more.

If the instance was that they started fighting when the one kid just had a bat in his hands, I can see EASILY why he would use it. It's reactionary. Does that mean it's ok? Absolutely not. My point was never that it is ok, but I'm just trying to help everyone else understand why it could happen and that this is not a bad kid, but a person that has poor control of rage.

Quote:

Murders don't just happen


Come on. Seriously. If you honestly believe that murders don't "just happen" then you are seriously out of touch here. A man catches his wife in bed with his best friend when he has a book in his hands. 99% of the time, what is he gonna do with that book? Throw it at them. Let's replace that book with a gun. What happens now? You ask that guy afterward why he killed his wife of 20 years and his best friend and he'll tell you that he was just so angry and that "it just happened." A murder that "Just happened" is something that you don't premeditate and they happen every day. So whether you believe it or not, it's real.

Quote:

I don't see how you can see this wasn't premeditated.


I have been there before. That's how I can see.

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Moot point, IMO. There's nothing that someone "might commit" is put into the right situation. We didn't commit it and I think most people here have lost a baseball game (or some other kind of sport) without killing someone over it. This kid murdered someone. Well-adjusted people don't do that.


No it's not a moot point. Everyone has a limit they must be pushed over to kill. All limits are not the same. This childs limit was a lot lower than yours. That is all I'm saying. Your argument there is off base and you're not paying attention to what I'm saying. Everyone is different. If you lost a baseball game, your team's first to a horrible team, and you felt absolutely responsible for the loss you would be experiencing hard emotions. Let me put this in terms maybe you can understand.

If your boyfriend dumps you for something that you did and you know that you were wrong and that it is all your fault... you get emotional. The emotions are so strong that you can feel it in your legs and your chest even though nothing seems to be happening to you on the outside. Chemicals in your brain become imbalanced and you will resort to possibly breaking down. Now that imbalance often causes people to take their own lives. But now let's say that some girl takes your place with him that day and rubs it in your face. Then she tries to fight you when you have a bat in your hands. There are only two ways you can react. You hit or you don't. Now imagine that you have the testosterone imbalance of a teenage boy. How can you even act like you don't see HOW it's possible that the boy hit and didn't think?

I'm not making excuses for the boy, but I am saying that he is not entirely out of touch with reality and may not be all that un-normal from people that you already know.

Quote:

I agree, but why does that mean he shouldn't be punished?


I actually want him to be punished. My hypothetical questions and attempt to get everyone to ask themselves about their beliefs has obviously backfired into everyone thinking I want this kid to get off. Whoops. My main point was always that punishment is the worst of our problems not that it is NOT a problem.

Quote:

Bottom line, the kid is to blame. Might there be other factors involved? Yes. But this kid picked up that bat and killed someone. He did it. Therefore, he's to blame. Simple.


I hope that you are readin what I've already typed with an open mind. The kid is at fault for what he did. It is entirely possible to act out of rage without thinking. It is possible for the child to have poor moral values. It is possible that he was justifiably depressed beforehand. There are much stronger forces in this world besides rational thought they are called reactions. Whether it's a chemical reaction you can not control or an immediate reaction just as you react to a itch.

And I swear to god, if you say something about how I'm comparing an itch to murder I'm done even trying to talk to you.

Quote:

Personally speaking, I've been plenty mad, and I've never, EVER had the idea to kill someone, even when I was so mad I was literally seeing red. I'd be FAR FAR FAR more likely to kill myself or let someone else kill me before I'd ever, EVER want to kill another person. At my angriest, all I want to do is scream and sob. But that's just me.


You're right. It is just you. And as I've said from the beginning, chemical imbalances affect us all differently and person experiences don't necessarily state facts. They are experiences that can justify possibility and I can understand where you are coming from because of that. All I ask is that you see that it is possible that rage can drive someone this far.

Quote:

I feel bad for his problems, and I agree, that this kid's punishment is probably the least of societys problems. Personally, I think solving the gap between the rich and the poor and ending poverty is likely the highest of societies problems, but that's irrelevant. This topic isn't about "What are the worst ills of society?"; this topic is about a kid who killed another one over a little league game.


Well then don't miscontrue what I say to mean something else. That particular statement has been my main theme all along. The more important problem is not the punishment but the prevention.

Quote:

Why are the two mutually exclusive? This is a tragedy; this kid killed someone, he broke a law, he knew it was wrong, he has to pay the piper. I feel bad for him,and I feel bad for the kid that was killed. But prevention has nothing to do with it. It's not like we're devoting all our money to punishing this kid instead of preventing crime.


No, you're not devoting your money to push him. Sarcasm is great isn't it? If we could understand what makes this happen, there wouldn't be any need for punishment. Until people actually start to care about "why", it'll always remain to be "what if". Your little brother could be the next kid to flip out I'm not saying that you should sympathize because of this, but what I'm saying is that you just don't know. Wouldn't you as his sister/brother want to know that he has this tendency before the bat is swung? I'm afraid that worrying about punishing the guilty is far less important than preventing others from filling their shoes.

Quote:

And becoming a human guinea pig in some lab sounds like just another way to screw this kid up.


I thought it was rather obvious that I was not in the least serious about him becoming a human guinea pig. I'm the only one that seems to try to understand him here... I'm sorry I mislead you and I should've said something when John Layfield spoke up about it. Instead I just laughed.

FF6Sage wrote:

I'm just trying to draw a connection between punishment and crime. It's very clear that if you make an action/item illegal, fewer people will violate that law.


That is possible. Why else would there be 10 commandments? It gives people moral guidelines and consequences for actions. However, determining that they are directly linked in this way is nearly impossible. I'm not talking about rational thought here either. What I'm talking about is the boy in question. If the crime meant he would have to endure torture from his worst enemy it wouldn't have stopped him. I'm sure the kid had no prior knowledge to what can/can't happen to him if he murders another human being. It's the absence of rational though that makes my argument make sense.

Quote:

Looking for deterrents may be absurd, but having them is certainly not absurd, but necessary.


I'm not saying that we should burn down the system of laws and punishment... holy crap man... way to read things literally. What I'm saying is that the problem is not looking for new ways to punish people but looking for ways to prevent rage from occuring by attempting to understand.

I think I could basically write that for every reply so far.

Quote:

I agree that everything around a person makes the person, but not everything around him has the same impact on him. There are bound to be many things around him that had far more significant impact than others. However, I had nothing to do with him. I influenced him not; not now, not ever. I never met him and was never near him. I do not want to be responsible (and am not resonsible) for something/someone I had nothing to do with at all. I am not putting all the blame at the kid's feet, just most of it. If he can't control his anger, it's not my fault. I'm not going to speculate as to what went through his mind since I will never know and never care to know in all honesty. Whatever his reasoning/lack thereof, it's not my problem, it's his and the legal system's now. What I'm getting out of your reasoning is punish everyone for the actions of one person. No offense, but to me, that's not right. It's like how a whole class of students is punished because of one kid breaking a rule. I didn't like it when I was in grade school and I don't like it now.


For someone claiming to be so uninvolved, you sure used the word "I" a lot. Listen man... if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem --George W. Bush. j/k Seriously, until society as a whole wants to consider why things are happening the way they are, I will continue to blame my neighbors for everything that happens around me. It gives me great mental discomfort to know that so many people can be caring about the wrong things and until the general public cares about preventing their children from becoming psychopaths and victims to inner rage, we will always ALL be to blame for it. Take your place in line, you belong there.

Quote:

As far as the kid's punishment is concerned, I'm against involuntary experimentation.


lol... nevermind

Lord Dredd wrote:

While I beleive that this kid should face jail time, I also beleive that he is still young enough to be able to realize he did wrong and make amends for it by doing his time. There is another problem however, regarding his punishment. I think that he is too young to be put in prison and would be in serious danger there, yet juvenile hall seems to be to lenient of a punishment. We as a people need to press the government to come up with a suitable place for these young offenders, that commit heinous crimes.


*stands up and claps*

I couldn't agree with you more... every last sentence. Absolutely perfect!
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Daniel Blackhand

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It is almost asking kids to do this kind of thing because they know that there is a very good chance that they will not be harshly punished. They know that the justice system will not send them to an adult prison, and juvenile hall is really just a slap on the wrist. If there was a punishment formed lika a prison, but geared at people under 18, than they might be less inclined to do these things.

Depending on the degree of the crime, I say that once they reach the proper age limit they need to be transferred to an adult prison. That brings me to another disturbing thing about our particular justice system. We send these criminals to prison where they get to work out, get a degree and a bunch of other stuff so that when they get out they are smarter and stronger criminals. Prison should be a place you go to be punished. I mean what knid of punishment do you call getting all this free stuff. Take out all of the free stuff they get and make it a prison.

Jam more guys into a cell and feed them prison food and make them really regret what they did. If I was thrown in jail I would not see it as prison, even though I could not go anywhere, I would be getting all this free stuff.
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

LD wrote:

If I was thrown in jail I would not see it as prison, even though I could not go anywhere, I would be getting all this free stuff.


Jails only look that way from the outside to most. On the inside, unless you are a lifer it's actually not that great. For one, even eating a meal can be difficult when you don't have your choices of meats. Instead it's strictly Filet Minon with corn on the cob and a buttered roll every day. Then you also have to cosider that although they let you read, it is rarely a hardcover book that you'll get your hands on. Lastly, while they do let you work out.. you're only given free weights and not the bungee-cord soloflex design that is so popular. Basketball nets are not fitted with nets because they're too easily taken down to strangle people or just use as a weapon. The same goes for belts.

It's really not all that great. Their are prison beating and rape that occur on a daily basis. Let's not also forget about the AIDS problem that has been running through the prison systems in recent history because of this. You can go in for armed robbery expecting to get out in a few years and get out, after being raped, with a disease that will most likely play a part in your death.

Quote:

We send these criminals to prison where they get to work out, get a degree and a bunch of other stuff so that when they get out they are smarter and stronger criminals.


Let's try to be optimistic and realize that a person who has attoned for their crime after 40 years needs to get out with an education so he does not have to commit crimes to survive in the outside world. It does present the problem of releasing smart criminals, but it's a win-lose situation. A better solution would be to have a place when ex-cons can work on the outside... but people would just complain that the jobs should go to people that better deserve them with prerequisites that are more impressive than simply being a former criminal.

Anyways... If we really care about smart criminals, we should really stop electing them.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well as for the high rate of prison crime and rape ant the such, that is another choice made by free wiil. No one makes an inmate do those things in jail anymore than they do in the real world. With that said, I could sense a bit of sarcasm in your post, and I have to say that I finf how you wrote it to be extremely funny.
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Saben

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's nice to see that my first post was ignored entirely! Personally I thought it included some interesting ideas. Because what the last part of my post was saying is "why do we consider punishment so valuable in law?" Because to me personally, the ONLY benefit of inprisonment are that a potential reoffender is able to be prevented from reoffending, that is the only thing that actually benefits society on the whole. In my mind, prison turns lawbreakers into worse people than they should otherwise be. Prison is not a peachy, rosy, happy place where gnomes with green hair serve you chocolate and walk around singing cheery songs. It is a place that makes people hate themselves and takes away the freedom of individuals. It does not make them into better people. So I guess my key question is- apart from the need for blood and revenge how do prisons help society?

My second question is why should someone without adult rights be tried as an adult?

And finally I would like to say that I do not believe this boy will reoffend. Murder, except in the case of totally insane serial killers, is RARELY a repeat offence. When someone has gone to far, it shocks their whole system into never going that far again in a lot of cases. It did with me. I believe it would with this boy. He definitely went too far. I can search for numbers about the percent of killers that reoffend if you like. It is not a high number.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hello? The lack of freedom in prison is exactly the point of it. Rehabilitation is supposed to happen, it does here. If American prisons can't or won't do that, I can't comment on it being here and all. And he should hate himself for his crime. Forever? No, probably not. But, what? He's supposed to be ok with it? "Yeah, I killed someone but I shouldn't hate myself so whatever!"

The boy will not be sent to prison, no matter how many forum members think he will be or that he should be. He'll be sent to a juvie correctional facility and will, in theory, recieve therapy and psychiatric help and all the rest. That's good enough.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sheesh, some posts in here make children sound like nutty demons.

I never said we should just give the boy a slap, and send him to his room, and not saying that he shouldn't be punished, yes he should be punished, but not a punishment that won't give him a reason to live or to be good, a punishment for life in prison won't do anything good although I know he won't ever get this sentence, I'm just trying to explain why children don't deserve something like that for the people who say they should.

The child did a crime, maybe he didn't know it is a crime and maybe he did, but the main issue is why and how are you going to deal with him and what to do to fight this problem?

If children got awareness from the start from the people around them, we won't have cases like these, for example if a child plays with matches, the mother hits him and takes it away without saying or explaining anything, we'll see the child do the same exact thing when he get hold of one because he isn't aware of anything, but if anyone explains to him why then he would understand that matches are dangerous.

Children need to be taught what is right and what is wrong, need to be taught why things are like this and why things are like that, we can't expect them to learn everything by their own, and can't judge them as people full of awareness.

Children with awareness are aware; children with no awareness are not.

The only reason we didn't turn into criminals is because we were taught from either our parents, people around us, TV, or anything else, what is wrong and what is right, now imagine if we weren't, what do you think would happen to us.

If anyone thinks that children can mange being good by their own, then why are we keeping them in our houses, let's just kick them out believing that they will be good.

Everyone are involved in making children in a way or another, if no one thinks about making a child aware of anything, then how is he/she called aware.

I just feel sad and angry knowing that people only regret not doing a thing that could've prevented something just because it didn't come to their minds that something like that would ever happen, yes it did happen, but that doesn't mean they should keep on living like nothing is wrong, now is the chance to do the move if not for your own child then to another person's child.

People should learn that children need awearness.

FF6Sage, I'm not saying that you yourself should be blamed for this murder when you aren't even any way close to the kid.

But if you were then you too are to be blamed.

If you see a kid hitting another one, and do nothing about it, ignoring it completely then you are to be blamed for what happened, you at least could've stop it in any way.
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Saben wrote:

It's nice to see that my first post was ignored entirely! Personally I thought it included some interesting ideas.


Saben your post was full of good ideas, I didn't say anything about it because I thought I got my point across. The only reason I didn't say anything about it was, because I wasn't going to reply in here until it seemed people still didn't understand the reasoning behind my words. So I had to come back and further explain things. :mrgreen:

Prisons help society by making people feel at ease that the real killers are actually being locked up when really your neighbors are just killers who haven't slain yet. They're also able to keep the real criminals away from public.

Prisons are not long term solutions. When criminals get out after serving a long sentence. A large number of them cannot make it in the outside world. They either kill themselves or commit another crime so they can be thrown back in jail. Rehabbing simply does not happen at institutions and the truth is: If you rehabilitate in prison, you do so with your own will to. If that's the case, you really didn't need to be there for rehab in the first place.

Most of the criminals that serve short sentences come out mentally worse off than they were when they went in. If you think about it, when you're put in a situation where everyone has the same point of view, usually you will adapt that point of view. If you work in a place where everyone hates their job, you'll grow to hate your job for the same reasons they do. It's not assured, but it's going to help explain my point.

When you're sitting in jail every day listening to the propoganda of other prisoners of how the system screwed them over, eventually you're going to believe the same thing. Eventually you'll find that you were the actual victim and after you serve your sentence, you'll view your time as wasted. With complete contempt for the system, things could get out of hand easily. Of course that's not guaranteed, just stating the point I've had all along: Fixing the problem is more important than punishing the crime.

Someone without adult rights should not be tried as an adult. If you think about it, if your government doesn't believe you have enough brains to vote, they should also believe that you don't have the knowledge to know right from wrong. Of course I'm not backing the second statement, but more or less condemning the first. It's kinda weird when you think about it. A 15 year old is much more likely to believe the lies they spew out at rallies and conventions. Wouldn't they want them voting?

John Layfield wrote:

The boy will not be sent to prison, no matter how many forum members think he will be or that he should be.


If a boy got sent to a prison, he would die unless he had a guard with him personally at all times. They're not going to afford you that priviledge there, so it might as well be a death sentence.

Njord wrote:

The only reason we didn't turn into criminals is because we were taught from either our parents, people around us, TV, or anything else, what is wrong and what is right, now imagine if we weren't, what do you think would happen to us.


For the most part I agree with you except for this statement and a few others.

That is possibly a reason, but not necessarily a reason at all. There are people who were raised in poor homes and have a horrible mindset about what is right and wrong and simply never commit crimes like murder. Sure they might steal or do something petty, but honestly, how many of us haven't stolen a candy bar or something? Murder is a horrible crime that is probably above all other crimes. It is usually not just a lack of morals that drives our citizens to kill, but a combination of things.

It's also possible that someone with complete understanding of right and wrong is pushed to the point where they commit a horrible and tragic crime.
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