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sybillious

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

yes, i'd seen the newscast; that's why i said he knew what he was doing-and is fully responsible.

to answer st. ajora, i've also been a child and am now a parent, so i've seen BOTH sides of the fence and understand it a bit more than you do, like it or not.

sophita basically reinforces a great many thoughts and stances i have on children and their parents today.

he committed an adult crime; he is old enough to understand right from wrong and consequences of actions. saying that because he's 13 and still a child doesn't change the fact that he murdered another child in cold blood.

that the parents aren't doing more to control their kids is at the core of the issue; sure, some kids can still go wrong, regardless, but it's every parent's responsibility to do everything in their power to stop this sort of behavior.
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Njord

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I know the child did a crime and he deserves to be punished, but not the punishment everyone wants.

It wouldn't help anyone by causing him more pain; it will only make his situation worse.

It's not like this child did more crimes in the past, it's his first one, so I don't think he should be judged as you judge a psycho.

Putting him in jail won't make this case disappear; helping him and helping children like him will make it decrease in number and hopefully disappear in the future.

Imprisonment isn't the solution.

sybillious, I don't want to get out of the topic, but you should know that your knowledge of life does not necessary have to work well with everyone.

You may believe that a certain way is good and effective in your case, but it doesn't have to be good or effective in other person's case.

You, me, St.Ajora, and everyone else, live in different places and grew in different ways, so if something worked fine with you doesn't mean it is going to work the same way with me or anyone else.

Everyone is different, so are the things that work well on/with them.

I respect your opinion (and everyone's opinion) and know it is true for you (and them), but by no mean it should be true for me.

I have my ways that I believe are right and you have your ways that you believe are right, what matters is that the two of us reached the same thing regardless of the different ways we took.

It's just like a road with one start and one end that splits into two in one point, you might take right and I might take left, but we'll eventually reach the same end.

I hope everyone understand what I want to say.
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Starslasher

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Very well said, Njord. But it's pretty hard to conclude what is right or wrong for that certain individual. So let's see what judgement will be passed on to this child.
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Neclord

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Njord wrote:
I know the child did a crime and he deserves to be punished, but not the punishment everyone wants.

It wouldn't help anyone by causing him more pain; it will only make his situation worse.

It's not like this child did more crimes in the past, it's his first one, so I don't think he should be judged as you judge a psycho.

Putting him in jail won't make this case disappear; helping him and helping children like him will make it decrease in number and hopefully disappear in the future.

Imprisonment isn't the solution.


I respect the fact that this is your opinion, so this is nothing personal toward you, however I must strongly disagree. That said, here I go...

It will only make HIS situation worse? Oh the poor thing... What about the child that lost his life due to his actions? What about his family that is greeving? This child isn't some kind of victim here, it's not society's fault he murdred someone because he could not control his temper, I agree with syb it probably comes from the parents but even that does not matter, the fact remains, he killed someone.

So what if it was his first offence?, is that fact supposed to make him less of a killer? is it supposed to mean that it's just some fluke and he shouldn't be punished? Of course not, he commited the highest crime possible, taking someone's life from them, wether it was intentional or not.

I will disagree with anyone who says he didn't know better because of his age, that is rediculous, a 13 year old has plenty of sense of right and wrong, they aren't like young children.

Putting him in jail won't solve anything? So then we should do what? Slap his wrist and say BAD BOY!...? It WILL solve one thing. It will take a murderer off the street and out of society.

What kind of message does a light sentence send to him or other teenagers? Not a very harsh one, punishments are deterrents. If we treat killers as victims and put them in mental hospitals or Juvie Hall it is not going to be as big a deterrent as a life in prison or the death penalty I can assure you.

This boy took the life of another, and now his family will never see him again. They will never see him smile, never hear him laugh, never see him get married and have kids of his own. All because this boy got angry.

He should be placed with others who commited the same crime, in prison, let him take 30 to life to think about what he did and decide if what he did was really worth it.
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Last edited by Neclord on Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:48 am; edited 2 times in total
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thank you Njord, you said what I could have said, only better :D

As for the articles, well, I doubt that poor parenting was the issue, nor was bullying, if he was in shock afterward. That leads me to believe that the kid obviously knew what he was doing, and how wrong it was, yet he just snapped. It's a good sign that he reacted to his actions like that, so perhaps, it wont end in another child's life being wasted because said child failed to comprehend the severity of his actions....afterward.

Quote:
It will only make HIS situation worse? Oh the poor thing... What about the child that lost his life due to his actions? What about his family that is greeving? This child isn't some kind of victim here, it's not society's fault he murdred someone because he could not control his temper, I agree with syb it probably comes from the parents but even that does not matter, the fact remains, he killed someone.

So what if it was his first offence?, is that fact supposed to make him less of a killer? is it supposed to mean that it's just some fluke and he shouldn't be punished? Of course not, he commited the highest crime possible, taking someone's life from them, wether it was intentional or not.


You are missing Njord's point completely. He is not saying give the kid a slap on the wrist, he is saying imprisonment is not the answer. Yes, he is not the victim here, but you must think about what this other child will endure for the rest of his life. Is that any way to justify this murder, by shoving his killer into some correctional facility, and to just let him rot? Instead, why not try and find out why that happened, why he felt that killing was necessary, even if he was aware of it, and try to correct that, instead of forgetting about him until he's 19. It's a hard mentality to grasp, because one is liable to just take out the killer without thinking about those consequences. Yes, he did a horrible thing. Why why why? But to just punish him harshly because of that, what exactly are we accomplishing? Another child life to throw away? Even if he's a killer, is it really right to just come down on him and ruin his life as well? I'm not exactly saying that we should parade him around town like the good samaritan that he is, I'm saying that instead of sending him to a cell, or maybe even trying him like an adult, time should be spent to correct his behaviour, and his punishment should focus on the choice that he made, and how he will have to cope with that for the rest of his life. Two wrongs don't seem to make a right, in this case.
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Sage

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Njord wrote:
If we want to be just we should punish the family, school, and the society that child grew in.


So if little Johnny down the street from me commits a crime, I should be punished? I don't like that idea. In my opinion as well, schools are for educating kids not raising them. School may cause some to grow up, so to speak, but the parents are ultimately responsible for raising their kid.

About punishment, the cost of committing a crime must be greater than the benefit to keep most from committing crimes. If we let everyone off or reduce the sentence, then we'll be sending the message that if you kill someone and are below a certain age, you get a lower cost to yourself. As for some of the psycho kids out there, there have to be some signs; the people around them just need to look harder (which is an enourmous task, I know).

St. Ajora wrote:
Yes, he is not the victim here, but you must think about what this other child will endure for the rest of his life. Is that any way to justify this murder, by shoving his killer into some correctional facility, and to just let him rot? Instead, why not try and find out why that happened, why he felt that killing was necessary, even if he was aware of it, and try to correct that, instead of forgetting about him until he's 19


Why are they mutually exclusive?
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Neclord

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

St. Ajora wrote:
You are missing Njord's point completely.


No I did not miss his point, I know that is what he meant, you however are missing my point.

My point being that everything you said just now about not locking him away frankly in my opinion is rubbish, anything less than a life sentence IS a slap on the wrist. I don't care if this boys life is going to be ruined by locking him up. HE DESERVES IT. He killed another person.

I don't care about the deep seeded reason behind his actions that lies locked in his psyche. I have no pity for a murderer, and cannot fathom why anyone would care that his life would be ruined, that is the consequence of his actions, People need to realize that, actions have consequences. There are certain lines that no civilized person crosses, and murder is one of those. When that line is crossed that person deserves the harshest penalty. The consequence for his actions.

Asking what we are accomplishing by locking a murderer up is ludacris. You accomplish taking a killer off the streets plain and simple. You really think that the solution is to correct his behavior? Fine correct his behavior, but do it while he is behind bars for life. The simple fact remains, he killed someone, no punishment is to great for that crime. I don't care the persons age, race, sex, criminal history, or home life.

Locking him up or taking his life may not solve anything, but it is a punishment, the consequence for murder and should be no different for him then it is for Tom, Jane, or Harry.
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FF6Sage wrote:

About punishment, the cost of committing a crime must be greater than the benefit to keep most from committing crimes. If we let everyone off or reduce the sentence, then we'll be sending the message that if you kill someone and are below a certain age, you get a lower cost to yourself.


Again we're totally missing the larger problem. Even if you rip this kid's arms off and beat him to death with them it won't stop this sort of thing from happening. Two months after this thing is over and done with, no one will even remember the punishment. If you let this kid off with a slap on the wrist it doesn't necessarily mean that kids are going to start killing people left and right because of the lack of capital or severe punishment. If it did mean that, then it only proves that it is not the system to blame, but the moral values of the children.

Quote:

School may cause some to grow up, so to speak, but the parents are ultimately responsible for raising their kid.


The parents are mostly responsible for raising our children, but if everyone was a little more involved I don't think this thing would happen as often. We are all to blame for the current state of all children.

The Neclord wrote:

So what if it was his first offence?, is that fact supposed to make him less of a killer? is it supposed to mean that it's just some fluke and he shouldn't be punished?


You're looking at the situation wrong. It's not that it was his first offense, but it is, in all likelihood, the only one he'll ever have. It is supposed to mean that the child has some mental problems and he needs to find help to control his rage. This is a good kid. He was a good kid before this incident and he'll be a good kid in the future.

Quote:

he commited the highest crime possible, taking someone's life from them, wether it was intentional or not.


There is a difference in punishment between what was premeditated and a murder that simply seems to "just happen." It is horrible what happened yes, but this is not something that could not be committed by you yourself if you were put in the right situation.

My point is that the problem is that this kid's tolerance for his inner rage was so low. Until we stop trying to point fingers at whose to blame and how hard we should beat them and start focusing on why children have a lower limit to how far they can be enraged before snapping, this sort of thing will continue to plague society.

Quote:

What kind of message does a light sentence send to him or other teenagers? Not a very harsh one, punishments are deterrents. If we treat killers as victims and put them in mental hospitals or Juvie Hall it is not going to be as big a deterrent as a life in prison or the death penalty I can assure you.


Just as I said before... Looking for deterrents is absurd. Why must you avoid the problem and simply try to keep it controlled with the law? If you think it is simply a problem that can be controlled with a severe punishment than the problem is the moral values of the children. THEREFORE THAT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED AND NOT THE PUNISHMENT FOR WHAT HAPPENS BECAUSE OF IT.

It's very aggrivating to see people with such opinions especially when it seems no one listened to the reasoning I expressed in my last post. The child doesn't necessarily have to be a bad kid, or show signs of being psychotic in order to kill someone. Everyone has the potential to murder and EVERYONE will murder if they are driven to the point where rage changes their mindset.

Extreme rage in a person actually causes a chemical imbalance in the brain that is not the same for everyone (meaning rage affects everyone differently and possibly at an EXPONENTIAL level of difference) therefore saying that you can control your fists in a fight DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE ELSE. Just because you don't pull the trigger doesn't mean the next person can hold back and it doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with the way they were raised or their moral values.

With that being said... you take the rage imbalance and ADD that to the hormonal imbalance of the average teenager and what you have in some children is an explosive bomb waiting to go off when she/he's pushed the right way. What you have in this situation is not a bad kid, punishing him for the way his brain reacts to that situation is absurd. As I said before, he'd probably tell you he never meant to kill that kid. But for one second... just for one instant.. it felt necessary and legitimate because of his anger. (If you missed my reasoning for that go back and read on the last page.)

It pains me to see what everyone is saying because this is EXACTLY why nothing is being solved. It's not due to the lack of punishment, but our lack of understanding. With that being said, it doesn't mean that his behavior can be excused. It does mean that the LEAST of our problems is the punishment of this child.
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Njord

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Necklord, no one is saying we should forget about him and not do anything; we only are saying that we shouldn't make him worse by putting him in jail.

The kid needs help, damaging him won't help, do you really believe that putting him in a jail will make a better person of him, how?

Remember that he is a child, and children aren't evil in nature.

And how are we helping this child by putting him in prison for life, what will it benfit anyone, why not just kill him, he won't be of any use if he is going to be there till his death day.

He like all children isn't born with absolute knowledge and wisdom (if there is such a thing), so how can we be sure if he knows right from wrong if we don't know a thing about the way he was raised.

I don't know if he knows what he did is right or wrong, and he obviously seems to not know what is wrong since he did it.

Children his case need help, need some kind of awareness, need a chance to make up for the wrongs they done after fully understanding everything, they don't need to be treated like psychos and serial killers.

Everyone should remember that we are talking about children, not grown people.

FF6Sage, that child didn't come from another planet, and didn't grew up in an isolated place, his life took place in his society, and family.

So, if that society made him what he is, then why shouldn't we punish the society and everyone who helped making that child.

Children don't learn things from nothing; they learn from what around them, if that child became murderer then everyone around him helped in making him one.

So, we can't put the full responsibility on that child alone, everyone is to blame.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The point isn't why he commited the crime. He may have commited because he was mad, or sad, or just plain bad, but that's not the issue. The issue is, he killed someone, full stop, period, end of sentence.

The basic responsibility for this action, even as a minor, is a trial. That's how society works and it's done well enough for us, and for America for more than 200 years, so let's not throw that out of the window.

The trial should be held, he should be found guilty. Whether of manslaughter or murder, and to what degree, is inconsequental.

He should then serve his time in a juvi correctional facility. Do you know why? Because CRIMES has CONSEQUENCES. Therapy is not a consequence. Looking at society's flaws in search of an answer is not a consequence.

But, that is not to say, that we should just lock him and that's the end of this sorry story. While he suffers the CONSEQUENCES, that is, the incarciration, he should, and most likely will, be attending regular therapy and the like. So, guess what? He does get punished and he gets help, wow! If after that he's deemed fit to re-enter society but ends up still banging up people with sports equipment, then that's not society's fault.

Meanwhile, there are ALWAYS people looking for reasons for why people do this and that. Always. You just don't hear about them because no-one cares until something like this happens. The study into societal affects on a persons personality will always be ongoing.

The boy commited a crime directly resulting in the death of another boy. He should be punished and rehabilitated. If not deemed insane he should be allowed to re-enter society when his time is up.
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

John Layfield wrote:

The point isn't why he commited the crime. He may have commited because he was mad, or sad, or just plain bad, but that's not the issue. The issue is, he killed someone, full stop, period, end of sentence.


Sure and let's just let the endless cycle of tragedies such as this continue because we're more focusing on punishment than prevention. This isn't some psychopathic killer that committed this crime. This is your next door neighbor, your brother, your friend... and if it wasn't this time, what keeps it from being him next time? It's not you, because you're more worried about punishing the troubled than keeping them from becoming that way.

I agree that he should be punished to some extent and receiving mental help. Why not make him some scientist's/doctor's guinea pig? Make him stay in some lab for 10 years responding to stimuli and under constant observation. That sounds like a real punishment and maybe we can learn something from the child instead of trying to set him right with prison beatings and solitary confinement which will only intensify whatever problems this child already has.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There is nothing wrong with prevention but here's the thing. This WASN'T prevented. We don't swap one for the other. It isn't prevention OR punihsment. It's both. We do our best to prevent and then if someone still slips through, then we punish. It's not about leaving everyone off their leashes and then complaining when they take a leak on the trees.

Becoming a human guinea pig on the other hand is much more horrific than any prison sentence. I would not condone non-consentual human experiments on ANYONE no matter what the crime. The punishment is that the person will lose his freedom for a set amount of years in accordance with his crime. During that time, psychiatrists, therapists and many other people will also be develing into young Killy McGee's mind to find out exactly why he found smashing someones head in with a baseball bat was a mighty fine idea and also how to prevent such cases from happening again.

Non-consentual human experimentation is where I draw the line, however.

We have people researching this world-wide everyday. We're already researching the hows and whys of these crimes. These experts don't mysteriously vanish after the news appeal of an item fades away you know. Just because results have not been great or because people aren't interested in reading scientific journals does NOT mean nothing is being done.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
No I did not miss his point, I know that is what he meant, you however are missing my point


No I'm not, yours was clearly obvious. Give it to him just as much as he gave. So, an eye for an eye makes the world blind sort of thing?

Quote:
People need to realize that, actions have consequences


Yes, it's a horrible tragedy, but throwing people behind bars and forgetting about them shows just how much of a lazy and uncaring society you believe in. Why not try and help them so they realize what they have done, and help them get the tools they need to function, to overcome that? This murderer is still a child, and if you believe that throwing him away is going to make him pay and suffer, well, you're right. But it accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Quote:
Asking what we are accomplishing by locking a murderer up is ludacris. You accomplish taking a killer off the streets plain and simple. You really think that the solution is to correct his behavior? Fine correct his behavior, but do it while he is behind bars for life.


Well it's great that you think that these cases are so black and white, so I wont go into anymore detail than necessary to tell you that they're not. On that note, I'd like to echoe everything that UberYuber said, because he's 100% right.

Quote:
The boy commited a crime directly resulting in the death of another boy. He should be punished and rehabilitated. If not deemed insane he should be allowed to re-enter society when his time is up.


I agree, because that's what the rest of us are trying to say. I don't think that it's right that we should pay for something that happened in the past....so a life sentence? I don't think so. Let him do his time, and get him the help that he needs...don't just lock him away and be done with it. That doesn't work.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
But, that is not to say, that we should just lock him and that's the end of this sorry story. While he suffers the CONSEQUENCES, that is, the incarciration, he should, and most likely will, be attending regular therapy and the like.


You would think that. And in theory, that's the way it is? But have you ever taken a really close look that those faculities? They are, in actuality, little more than holding tanks for offenders deemed too young to be put in with the general prision population. There's not even enough money to provide theapy for at-risk kids in the foster care system, kids who haven't done anything. If there's not enough for them, who's going to push for more funding for criminals?

It seems like a major part of this is found in what you believe prision is for. I would be interested to find out what everyone thinks of that.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I cannot comment on that, my knowledge of United States prison facilites is limited but from what you're saying they're not up to much, huh? Pity. For the offender, I mean. Oh well.
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