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Daniel Blackhand

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

First off in my post I did state that was not the case here because I do not know the kids background. Secondly if you spank your child once on the bottom just hard enough to let them know they did wrong than you are okay. Thirdly by just talking to your child or giving them in option as to how they are punished than you are only doing them and yourself harm. By giving a child an option or continually saying don't do that and not showing that you mean it, they will grow up to be spoiled and get whatever they want.

I got my fair share of spankings growing up, and not only do I not hate my mother but am glad she did because it taught me a since of right and wrong. If you as they say "do the crime you must pay the time".

That's like saying that if a man commits a burglary than just telling them it was bad is enough. I beleive that if you do something wrong than you must pay the consequences.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While we look back at the age of 13 in rose-tinted glasses and pretend that you were 'only a child' then and so this attacker shouldn't be tried and convicted, remember this.

A 15 year old (also a child, according to the sweeping statments being made here) DIED because the other person decided that just knocking him to the ground by smashing a baseball bat against his knees wasn't enough.

First, he smashed that bat into the persons knees, flooring him, possibly breaking his knee-caps in the process.

Then, wait for it, he made a choice not to stop there (oh yes, it is a choice, whether you make it in a milisecond or ponder over it for a week, it's still a choice) and to instead raise that bat up high and bring it crashing down into the 15 year olds skull. With enough force to smash it in and kill the person.

An act of anger, brought on by extreme emotion that would be excusable would be, at most, a hasty swing with the afore mentioned bat.

The FACT is that a teenager repeatedly attacked another teenager with a baseball bat until he died.

But of course, he was teased. And he might or might not have been spanked or had a hard family life.

So, that's OK! :D

We should just pat him on the head, maybe ruffle his hair slightly and go "Oh, Jimmy, what will you get up to next?" before breaking into a spontaneous group laugh like at the end of so many 60's sitcoms.

Or...

We could try his AS A MINOR for manslaughter. If found guilty, he would be actively counceled by actual experts. Because, guess what, politically correct ones? Jails aren't just about bread and water and jail-house romance anymore!

But, no, I agree. We should let him off and maybe have him get a spanking and a weekly appointment with a school councellor.

After all. It's not like he killed someone.

Oh.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
I disagree. That's almost like saying all suicide bombers are crazy.


......

Are you contending that suicide bombers are sane?
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

st ajora said:

Quote:

Gee I miss a lot of things. You seem to be speaking from personal experience. No one has to deal with anything if we just stop doing what we're doing to hurt someone. Sometimes "crying and whining" is all we can do. We're only human. Not very many people can accept your mentality (although I for one agree with it, surprisingly) and life must be very hard for them. Just because we're all going to have such an imperfect, stressful life doesn't mean that we should shut up and stop complaining.


it's 18, sorry. I've been there, done it all, because I was a child myself, once. That's all of the experience I need, thank you.

ahh, i see, so you look at it from ONE perspective; great attitude-that will really get you far.

Quote:
to say that losing control is acceptable simply because the person is pushed is thoroughly asinine.


Really? Who said that?

you did...read your post about 'being pushed into it by bullying.' your words, not mine.

18, 17, it doesn't matter; my point is that you haven't experience much of anything, really, yet seem to think you have the answers. i'm older and even i don't have the answers, but i do understand a great deal more than you do.

as for the reference to the past; i was referring to the punishments, most were quite draconian, i agree. i will clarify what i meant; today's kid whines and considers the loss of a playstation or cell phone abuse, a steaming load compared to what your grandparents went through.

but then again, you think that no one is resposible nor accountable for their actions, so why bother with anything, laws or the like? hell, let's have one big worldwide free for all, since no one's truly responsible anymore. do whatever you like, whenever you like, however you like, you're simply not responsible for your actions, since you were drunk/bullied/stressed/upset/pmsing/couldn't get your frappucino, etc. no responsibilites for your actions whatsoever.

sounds like a perfect world to me... :|
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Are you contending that suicide bombers are sane?


haha no. But they're not the stupid, psychotic people that we all think they are. Many are intelligent, calculating, aware....just the things that we think they're not.

Quote:
That's like saying that if a man commits a burglary than just telling them it was bad is enough. I beleive that if you do something wrong than you must pay the consequences.


Comparing a mischevious child to an adult criminal is not a very good comparison at all.

Quote:
ahh, i see, so you look at it from ONE perspective; great attitude-that will really get you far.


I could easily say the same to you. And what, if we're not in a certain situation, then we have no right to say what we want and believe that we are right? So uh, none of us are allowed to talk about the recent case of physican assisted suicide just because we haven't been through it? This scenario is about the parent and the child- I don't need to be a parent to believe that my future methods of discipline are correct.

Quote:
you did...read your post about 'being pushed into it by bullying.' your words, not mine.


No I did not. I suggested that that was the cause of his breakdown. I said no such thing that aww, we should feel sorry for him because he was bullied, let him off easy. I was providing a reason for the murder- not condoning it.

Quote:
as for the reference to the past; i was referring to the punishments, most were quite draconian, i agree. i will clarify what i meant; today's kid whines and considers the loss of a playstation or cell phone abuse, a steaming load compared to what your grandparents went through


yeah, it's true, sadly, and I admit to doing trivial things like that, but in the end I try not to.

Quote:
18, 17, it doesn't matter; my point is that you haven't experience much of anything, really, yet seem to think you have the answers. i'm older and even i don't have the answers, but i do understand a great deal more than you do.


I understand where you're coming from, but I don't accept your statement. Just as I have no idea who you are, you have no idea who I am, and what I've been through, and what I've learnt growing up in the past. Don't use my age to patronize me, although I'm sure you mean well (and I've used the age-card once or twice, and trust me, it never works)

Quote:
but then again, you think that everyone isn't resposible nor accountable for their actions, so why bother with anything, laws or the like


"You" as in me? Where did I say that no one isn't responsible? I clearly remember saying that when someone takes action, it is their decision and their responsibility. Just because I'm pointing out that this kid may have been bullied doesn't mean that I fall back on that as an excuse to feel sorry for him. I'm just adding an alternative perspective, even if I don't necessarily agree with it, I can understand it.
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

you digress; this isn't about patient suicide and that subject is a personal matter, not a public matter.

please stick to the subject at hand, rather than try to fillibuster with things that don't directly relate.

Quote:

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't accept your statement. Just as I have no idea who you are, you have no idea who I am, and what I've been through, and what I've learnt growing up in the past. Don't use my age to patronize me, although I'm sure you mean well (and I've used the age-card once or twice, and trust me, it never works)


if you feel patronized, i can't help that; your statement there is patroniztion in of itself. yes, your life may not have been that great, nor was mine; what i am saying is to use it as an excuse or even having a bad day as an excuse to lash out at others, possibly maiming and even killing them is not acceptable.

you are responsible for your actions, regardless of how your life/day has gone; don't visit your miseries on others simply because you're going through a rough time. this nonsense can be traced back to about 20 or so years ago, starting about the same time that old woman sued mc donald's. never mind the fact that she bought coffee that was hot; it wasn't her fault, even though she sat it in her lap and then got burned. nope, just like it's not this kid's fault that he couldn't control his actions in the face of some harmless *yes, there IS such a thing* teasing.

tell me, when WILL someone be responsible for their actions? by your way of thinking, it seems that no one will ever be responsible for what they do, since they are 'not in control' of themselves when they commit said act. makes it hard to mete out justice, don't you think?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This is a terrible situation, and my heart goes out to the families on both sides of the equation. Both sets of parents lost a child, one to death and the other to the prison system. It's a horrible thing that happened, but it's important to remember that this sort of violent attack is still very rare. Crime of all stripes has been either dropping or leveling off after a drop for 10 years now, and the fact is that this sort of thing has always happened. People get into fights. Often, people are either seriously injured or die as a result. It's what life is, and while that certainly doesn't excuse anyone, it also means that we shouldn't freak out and go off the deep end.

Quote:
That's a very relevant point, since most Psychoanalysts agree that the personality stops developing around 14, but not everyone stops changing there.


This isn't really correct. In fact, psychologists have recently discovered that the parts of the brain that regulate impulse control don't "solidify" until 26. Before that, most teenagers and young adults are walking cauldrons of impulses. This is made especially dangerous given the fact that the parts of the brain that control reason are "ready" long before that, which means that you can and do get people who can reason their way to binge drinking, speeding and all kinds of other dangerous behaviors. Seems like this kid was suffering from that. It doesn't excuse his behavior, as we are all ultimately responsible for what we do, but treating him in the exact same way you would treat a 40 year old who committed the same crime isn't right either.

And, just to correct a misconception that I see, pleading "mental defect," or, more commonly the insanity defense isn't an easy thing. Finding credible experts is difficult, convincing unsympathetic juries is an uphill battle, and when it's all said and done, MD pleas are only successful in one quarter of one percent of the cases in which they're used, and, if a person carries it off, they still look at several years of time in a psychiatric hospital, at least, and often much more than that. In these cases, you're held until it is determined that you are no longer a threat, conceivably for the rest of your life. If you have a lawyer who wants to use this and you are not legitimately crazy or truly desperate, then I would recommend you get another lawyer. Immediately.

The trend I've noticed that really worries me is the blaming of the parents I'm seeing. Sure, maybe they hold a share of the blame, but you don't know that. All you have seen, I am assuming, is a few sentences about it on an online forum, and you still feel qualified to make a judgement that the parents are to blame? Life isn't that simple, and nothing is served by making blanket statements and accusations that suggest otherwise.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
you digress; this isn't about patient suicide and that subject is a personal matter, not a public matter.

please stick to the subject at hand, rather than try to fillibuster with things that don't directly relate


So is disciplining your child. I used one example in one paragraph, to make a point; I have not derailed the topic.

Quote:
if you feel patronized, i can't help that; your statement there is patroniztion in of itself. yes, your life may not have been that great, nor was mine; what i am saying is to use it as an excuse or even having a bad day as an excuse to lash out at others, possibly maiming and even killing them is not acceptable.


Well then, next time, don't bring age into the discussion as if it seperates us from trying to understand one situation. As for the rest of your statement, uh, okay?

Quote:
you are responsible for your actions, regardless of how your life/day has gone; don't visit your miseries on others simply because you're going through a rough time.


And again I say, okay? Isn't this what I've been almost saying? We're all responsible for our actions? However, sometimes, we can't help lashing out at others because of our emotions. Like I said before, we've all done something that we've regretted. "Visiting our miseries on others" is not right, yet sometimes, it can't be foreseen, even in a huge case like murder. That in no way excuses it, but if we're talking about something like being hostile towards someone because we're having a bad day, well, sometimes we just can't help ourselves.

Quote:
this nonsense can be traced back to about 20 or so years ago, starting about the same time that old woman sued mc donald's


Unloading yourself on others and misplacing blame isn't 20 years old; people just realized how far it can get them in today's society, sadly.

Quote:
tell me, when WILL someone be responsible for their actions? by your way of thinking, it seems that no one will ever be responsible for what they do, since they are 'not in control' of themselves when they commit said act. makes it hard to mete out justice, don't you think?


And AGAIN, I am going to say, that I am NOT excusing anything just because there was a reason behind it. Now you have missed MY point. Again I will repeat myself and say that if this kid was bullied (which he apparently wasn't, but just bear with me) then he was pushed to that point to do such a thing because of us- very rarely does someone club someone else with a baseball bat just BECAUSE. Does that make him some kind of a victim? Perhaps, but he's the murderer in this scenario, and all history aside, he may have chose to get up and kill, or he may have reacted by just being pushed to the edge- but many of us have been tested many times in our lives and we have not killed anyone- but he still chose to rely on those emotions to murder another boy. Now where have I said, in this whole thread, that that should get him a get out of jail free card? I don't remember implying or saying that, and it's sad that you interpreted that way, but I have only offered suggestions as to why he did what he did- and how he may have been feeling in the process. I did not, in any way, excuse his behaviour.
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While I don't think murder is acceptable I'm afraid I don't understand the childs predicament, but what I do understand is why such behavior could occur. There are many instances where the mindset of a younger person could easily turn from agression to mindless rage. Everyone has a breaking point. Most people's breaking points are very high and thus they never come into play, but other people's can be much lower. This doesn't have to be because of moral understanding, or the parenting skills of the child's guardian, or society.

Everyone's brains from actual mental capacity and content to the specific chemical imbalances are different. Insisting that you've never had a mental breakdown has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. I'm sure that everyone here has never killed someone, but the odds are that everyone here would murder someone if they are pushed far enough. The point is that everyone has a different limit they need to be pushed to reach this point.

I can all but guarantee that just about everyone on this website has done one thing or another in a mindless rage. All my life, I've had a bad temper that has gotten me into more than a few fights and I would have to say that in some of them.. if the other guy had a bat, that I would've been hit with it and no one stops hitting with one swing. Once you cross the line of using a weapon you continue 'til you are done. That is just the way it goes.

I have, at one point in time, put my fist into a brick wall instead of another guy's face. His head was up against the wall and knowing my strength and ability, I would've killed him if I would've hit him. And until I had my fist ready to fly forward, I was intent on killing him. I had my reasons... well to be completely honest it had to do with him trying to rape my friend with one of his buddies. While that seemed like a totally legitimate reason at the time to destroy his life, I realize now that I was able to stop the situation by what I did and the situation did not need to escalate further.

The child in question wasn't doing a good deed or anything of the sort. He was a pitcher for an undefeated baseball team who had just lost their first game of the season to a horrible team. This child was on the mound for the game and probably was taking a lot of heat from himself for letting everyone down. Shortly after the game, the other child cut in front of him in line for concessions and then started rubbing the loss in the pitcher's face. With that being said.. does it mean he should get murdered? Absoultely not, but it does mean that he is testing the limits of the other child. That particular child would tell you that he didn't mean to kill him. But at that exact second and most likely only for a second... when he had the bat and was swinging... he meant it.

So what would we like to blame it all on? You can blame the child's parents which could be the problem, however, it is entirely possible that the childs parents were very good to him and he came from a happy home and he is still prone to rage and agressive behavior. The parents of the child were BOTH at that baseball game. It's not as if they weren't in this kid's life.

You can blame is all on the child, but there are several developmental factors in a brain's development that can make it impossible to suppress feelings of rage and the like. This wasn't a bad kid. He didn't have a history of being aggressive or overly physical. And up until that exact second when he lost control, he was a totally normal kid.

Placing blame in this situation is something everyone tries to do and they forget about the bigger problem: This kind of tragedy is happening all over and the problems are not getting solved.

It's not repeat offenders either. So don't act like it's the punishment being too weak. If you make an example of this kid and send him to the chair, it will not stop this sort of behavior. It is rediculous that the punishment is even being discussed in here. The REAL problem is that kids/people are snapping and they don't show signs of it before it happens.... as this child did not. They are normal people before the even takes place and afterwards they are normal people that are traumatized by what they've done.

If we could take less time pointing fingers before we actually try to find out who to point them at, it would be more beneficial to society as a whole. This kid is paying for what he did already. And before you get condescending on me as well, let's just realize that I'm not even talking about punishment here as it is the lesser of the two problems. I think it's rather absurd that we're even talking about who to punish before we even try to find out just why the hell it happened.
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Sophita

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In the example given...I think the kid should probably be tried as an adult. Why?

- He knew what he was doing. It's hard to argue that by the age of 13, a kid didn't know that a baseball bat could be used to hurt someone. Most people know that a baseball bat can double as a weapon, I think.

- It was premeditated. He didn't accidently hit the kid in the head, he meant to. Whether he meant to kill or not is less relevant, to me, than his intent to do harm.

That said, I wouldn't want the kid to get capital punishment. I'm against capital punishment in any case, but especially when the person hasn't had a chance to mature. They could turn into a productive member of society, if rehabilitated.

The Hot Ice wrote:
What I really hate are these school shootings. "No one liked me, waah", as soon as you decided to pick up a gun and go kill them you should have picked up a phone and got yourself some therapy.


That's a good point, though I question how many of those who become school shooters would have responded to therapy. I mean, I got picked on in school, too, but I took it out at home on a pillow or went dancing (stop. laughing.) or even by playing a fighting game or a beat'em up game. (Say what you will, but beating my survival record or time record or what not makes me feel good, and it's not something where I have to think a lot.)

I suspect many of these school shooters are actually psychopaths, and would have gotten in trouble with the law sooner or later. It takes a strange kind of person to be able to take a human life without any thought/care whatsoever. And others, I suspect, act simply out of desperation, or desolation, really - feeling they are all alone, no one else understands them, and that by george THEY WILL MAKE OTHERS UNDERSTAND and THEY WILL MAKE OTHERS PAY.

Lunarblade wrote:
Honestly, I think it's pretty hard for a teenager to be in total control of the emotions...the raging hormones, etc.


While I agree with the rest of your message, I disagree with this. Speaking as one who was a teen not so long ago, I didn't have trouble being in control of my emotions. I admit I had the occasional outburst (as we all do) but I never had the urge to commit such a heinous crime. At worst, I would have just been all "Waaaah waaah there is no one who knows my unique adolescent PAIN. I must write some bad poetry now."

And I was teased all through Elementary & high school, from Kindergarten to Senior year, basically. And I got into a few fights, but I'm proud that I never started those fights and only fought in self defense (ie pushing people away and the like); I never injured anyone. Being teased had some effects on me (every time I see people whispering, I *still* feel insecure and think they're whispering about me, and it takes me a second to realize they're probably not), but a propensity towards violence wasn't one of them. So I have a hard time believing that it's a "natural" reaction.

But then again, I was an extremely early developer and was done with puberty long before I was in high school, so maybe I'm the exception, and that going through puberty while in those teen years adds stress and hormonal issues I didn't have.

I think a big issue in this, as Sybillious mentioned, is the parents. If your parents are there for you, I think you'd have an easier time than if your parents didn't care about you. It's a lot easier when your home is a sanctuary with people who care about you rather than when your home is just another place that you just happen to sleep in. It always surprises me when I meet parents who don't seem to know their kid's friends or aren't concerned about their grades - I know that stuff wouldn't have flown in my parent's house, and it still surprises me that it flies in others.

St. Ajora wrote:
But not all parents are to blame in these situations. I mean, do you even need a parent to tell you not to whack someone over the head with a bat?


Not all parents are to blame, that's true. But a lot of these school shooters and the like...When you look at their homes, their parents seem kind of clueless. Like they didn't even know what their kids were like.

And while you don't need your parents to tell you not to whack someone over the head with a bat...It seems to me your parents should have taught you to control your anger better, before it escalated to that point. Someone who's willing to take a bat to someone's head is going to have anger issues, and that's bound to come up in other forms before the stuff hits the fan. You don't just start off knocking people in the head/knees with a baseball bat; it's not a spontaneous reaction. Somewhere, that kid learned that hitting someone in the head and knees with a baseball bat was a perfectly reasonable action, and it was that kid's parents responsibility to educate him otherwise.

Lord Dredd wrote:
A great deal of this can be laid at the laws feet. They have made it absolutely hard to raise a child, because they say you can't spank your child so they grow up doing what they want. On the other hand if your child gets into major trouble because there is no discipline than the parents are thrown in jail.


St. Ajora wrote:
You must be kidding. He killed his team mate because he wasn't spanked as a child? More often than not, that's the reason some child grow up to volatile and ready to snap.


I don't think spanking is necessarily the answer to or reason why people snap. Lots of people are/were spanked, but they're not sociopaths or serial killers, and most people don't have a propensity towards violence. Plenty of people haven't been spanked and have the same traits as those who have. I'm a big believer in positive reinforcement, but sometimes, I think negative reinforcement is necessary. And in young children, it's a lot easier for a 2 year old to understand that fire is not to be touched if you slap their hand away from the stove rather than going "No, Timmy Sue, the stove is hot and will burn you. Get away from there Timmy Sue - I mean it. Now! Timothy Suezette, baby, please, come to mama/papa...." They just don't understand the concept of the stove burning them until it actually happens or you pull them away quick enough they don't get burned.

I do believe a lot of parents are very hesitant to dicipline these days, because it's what I see babysitting. For example, let me tell you a true story:

One time, I was babysitting this little girl. Her mother asked me if I would mind going to Wal-Mart to pick up a few things, I agreed. So I gathered up "Tanya", her 6 year old daughter (name changed to protect the innocent), and off we went to Wal-Mart. Tanya behaved wonderfully - so wonderfully, in fact, I decided that I would award her for it with the little extra money I had (10 bucks). I told her that because she had behaved so well, I would buy her any toy she wanted so long as it was under 6 dollars. Tanya was quite happy about this, so off we troddled to the toy section. She decided she wanted a Barbie - and not just any Barbie, but one of those collector's figurine barbies. It was extremely expensive (don't remember the price, but it was over 20 dollars, and I only had 10 and wanted to keep 4 for lunch), and I didn't have the money for it. I told her as much, and said that while it was a very pretty barbie, I didn't have enough money for it, and she would need to pick from the row of $6 dollar or lower barbies.

She threw a fit. She wanted THAT barbie. I told her I was sorry, but I couldn't afford it, so she'd have to make do with a $6 dollar barbie or that I would give her the $6 and she could start saving up for the collector's figurine barbie.

She got a sour face and I got a bad feeling. She marched over to the top of the rack, and held her hand behind the first row of barbies and told her that if I didn't buy her that barbie, she'd knock them down.

I told her I couldn't buy it, and that if she did it, she could kiss the chance of getting any barbie or money goodbye.

She knocked them down and hurled herself into a hissyfit on the floor.

I moved the cart in a place where it wouldn't disturb other shoppers, picked up my purse, picked up her, abandoned the cart, and left the store. I put her in the car and told her to just let it out. She continued throwing a hissyfit for about 10 more minutes, then tearfully asked if she could have a barbie now. I told her that I was sorry, but that barbie was a reward for good behavior, and she'd blown it. She sniffled and said she'd be good, and I said that was a start, and that maybe she could get a barbie next time if she continued to be good.

We went back into the store. The cart was still there, and so were all the downed barbies, though an employee was trying to pick them up. I told her she had to help the poor employee pick them up, and I helped as well. Afterwards, I had her apologize to the lady for knocking them down and taking up the employee's time and distracting the employee from her job. We then checked out.

When we got home, I had her tell her mom exactly what happened. To my surprise, the lady was livid. And not at her daughter - at me. She screamed at me about how dare I embarress my daughter like that and how could I possibly not give her daughter a barbie after promising. She said I had scarred her daughter for life by forcing her to pick up things on the floor and apologize to an employee. She told me she didn't want me to work for her anymore, and that she'd be sure to tell other parents about my strict diciplinary style. I told her that I didn't believe I'd done anything wrong but I was sorry for offending her and that I'd enjoyed sitting for her daughter.

As I was leaving, Tanya asked her mom when would I would be sitting for her again. Tanya's mom said that she didn't think I would be back.

Tanya's reply? "Whhhhhhhyyyy? I liiiike Sophita!"

Tanya wasn't upset with me for diciplining her; it was her mom who was really upset about it. And sadly, I've seen that behavior repeated, by both mothers and fathers. A lot of parents are afraid of diciplining their kids, that it would "hurt their self-esteem" or the like, or at least that's what I've seen.

Being absolutely authoritarian isn't going to help anything, but being so leniant you don't dicipipline at all isn't going to help anything either.

st. ajora wrote:

it's 18, sorry. I've been there, done it all, because I was a child myself, once. That's all of the experience I need, thank you.


Jeesh man, not to derail the topic or anything, but I feel sorry for you. I'm 20, and I feel very inexperienced in this world. I can't imagine saying I've said or done it all. I don't know how you possibly say you've done it all by the time you're 18.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Jeesh man, not to derail the topic or anything, but I feel sorry for you. I'm 20, and I feel very inexperienced in this world. I can't imagine saying I've said or done it all. I don't know how you possibly say you've done it all by the time you're 18.


haha nooo that's not what I meant. That comment was referring to the fact that I was familiar with what works with child discipline and what doesn't (edit, in my personal experience anyway)...because after all, I was one not to long ago :wink: Nothing about my experience in the world, but my experience as a child.
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Sai Fujiwara

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, in response to Lord Dredd's initial post, I must say that it's a tragedy that these things seem to be happening so often. I'm not sure what to make of it all, and I guess the first thing we all want to do is point fingers at people, but that doesn't always help, either.

As for how his punishment should be, I'm kinda' sick of teens being let off the hook. I think they should be tried as adults. Even if he's beeing tormented by his actions, that doesn't mean that he shouldn't face the same music that everyone else has to. It's a cause and effect thing. You break the law, you pay the price. It's simple, whether or not someone else will argue it's fairness.

However, I think OOOBIE had a very darn insighful view. I, for one, would LOVE to know why these kinds of things happen and what we could do to prevent them. I also think that, if he's like any normal human being, he's probably horrified at his own actions. Thing is, we can't just ignore what DID happen. As anyone else, he DOES need to be treated just the same. Age shouldn't matter, since I think we can't argue that he would know what he was doing. (In a totally sane state.)

The problem was, he snapped. Based on what we've seen, I think the evidence is there. I've snapped too, and have even pulled a knife on my own brother. I didn't stab anyone, but I was really wigging out... I think understanding why people snap could be beneficial to us all. This is most certainly a crime of passion, as I'm sure he would never do such a thing under normal circumstances. I don't think any laws could've prevented what happened, to be sure. It's just a tragic case of life & death.

It sucks, it hurts, and it just isn't fair that the 15 year old kid died. Punishing the 13-year old won't bring him back, nor prevent this kind of thing from happening. Even so, it would bring some amount of closure to it all. I think society should punish the child as an adult... BUT, at the same time, we should look into these kinds of things to TRY and DO something about it. Punishment alone isn't the answer.

Oh, and between us members, lets get off this age thing. I think we've ALL heard enough about it. So I say that, for the civility of this thread, that we just drop that point ok? Thanks everyone. :D
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I reread the thread, and I've decided I want to see an article that describes the situation fully. From two sentences everyone seems to be drawing conclusions about who was to blame and making accusations as to what created this and how we can prevent the sky from falling. There aren't enough facts present, and until some are provided things are just going to keep going around in circles, creating more heat than light.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah that would have been better than assuming and getting a little bit too intense with sybillious, haha. I for one am more than curious.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I apologize, St. Ajora; I misread your post. Whoops. That makes me feel better about you, then. :D My apologies.

Shem, Here's a quick AOL news article about it, a CBS news report on the parents of the murdered boy (they want the 13 year old (whose name has been withheld) to be punished) and a Google News search on the boy who was killed; that brings up quite the load of articles on the case, about 500.
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