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Tragic state of life
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Sparhawk

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Tragic state of life Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lord Dredd wrote:
A 13 year old pitcher on a baseball team lost their first game of the season. After the game a 15 year old boy was teasing him, when the younger boy puller out a bat and hit him once in the knees and than once in the head killing him.


I didn't do those things when I was in baseball. Those kids who do such things shouldn't be on the field in the first place.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, you just never know who might jump up and clobber you in the knees. It's a spontaneous reaction...a breaking point.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The 13yr old Kid maybe didn't meant kill the 15yr old kid but rather to hurt him maybe because he was bullied in the past and he keeps his anger inside until it burst out. I know the feeling but I agree that the 13yr old kid deserve a punishment and he's old and knows enough that taking other's life is a crime. His still a minor and I don't think that the kid will get the same punishment as the adults but the hard for the child is it will be in his conscience until he dies.

as for the parent's it depends whether they will take the blame or not. if they do take their responsibility as parent to their child maybe it will lessen this kinds of crime.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If he didn't mean to hurt him, I'm sure the 13 year old could have pushed the 15 year old, or stomped on his foot. Instead, he aimed for the knees, and the head.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm sorry, lazy apologists, but when you're angry because someone is 'teasing' you the natural thing to do is NOT to beat the person to death with a baseball bat.

Surprising, non?

When you are 13 years old, you DO know what you're doing, you ARE expected to follow the main rules of society and you ARE expected to know reasonable self control.

If you do not adhere to that, then you go to jail. Or a criminal mental institution.

When you're being 'teased' the 'natural' response is to fire back a retort or to report this to someone else. The person is a minor, that means he should be charged with murder as a minor but the way some people are making up BS excuses to seemingly let the criminal off is disgusting.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

If he didn't mean to hurt him, I'm sure the 13 year old could have pushed the 15 year old, or stomped on his foot. Instead, he aimed for the knees, and the head.


I guess the kid lost his mind and his patience is over limit that's why he hit the kid with a bat into the head.
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Daniel Blackhand

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well there was no history of teasing, as the two boys had not had any problems in the past. A great deal of this can be laid at the laws feet. They have made it absolutely hard to raise a child, because they say you can't spank your child so they grow up doing what they want. On the other hand if your child gets into major trouble because there is no discipline than the parents are thrown in jail.

I am not saying that is the case in this particular instance mind you. I beleive that if a child does something wrong they deserve to be spanked. I am however against child abuse, and there is a huge area between spanking your kid and abusing them. If a child gets spanked they may hate the parent for a time but will come to realize they deserved it. If they are abused they grow up to become problem children.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
They have made it absolutely hard to raise a child, because they say you can't spank your child so they grow up doing what they want.


You must be kidding. He killed his team mate because he wasn't spanked as a child? More often than not, that's the reason some child grow up to volatile and ready to snap. I don't see how the law has ANYTHING to do with raising your child. They don't help children with homework, they don't feed children when it's suppertime, why should they have anything to do with how OUR children are raised? if you can't blame the parents, then you blame the law? How about we just blame the child? You said there was no history of teasing between the two...but what about with anyone else? If not, is he a sociopath? I find it hard to believe that it would be the law's fault just because we can't spank our children when they're being troublesome. Tough love isn't always the case.

Quote:
On the other hand if your child gets into major trouble because there is no discipline than the parents are thrown in jail.


Discipline does not have to include hitting your child. When kids are bad at school, do we hit them? Not anymore...

Quote:
I am not saying that is the case in this particular instance mind you. I beleive that if a child does something wrong they deserve to be spanked. I am however against child abuse, and there is a huge area between spanking your kid and abusing them.


And sometimes parents don't know the difference. Sometimes children don't know the difference. If a child does something wrong, I would think that a firm, stern voice would be used instead of an open palm or closed fist. Take away the gameboy, or the television.

Quote:
If a child gets spanked they may hate the parent for a time but will come to realize they deserved it.


I got spanked once in my childhood, (with a wooden spoon no less) and my mother cried and apologized to me as soon as she had done it. I have not grown up accepting my mother's decision and realizing that I "deserved" it. The issue of child spanking is not as black and white as you would like to believe.

Quote:
. If they are abused they grow up to become problem children.


Was abuse a factor in this case? Not all problem children are the way they are because of abuse.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

But not all parents are to blame in these situations. I mean, do you even need a parent to tell you not to whack someone over the head with a bat? We all pick that one up some time or another, but that's not really the point here. The point is, where were the parents that let this kid escalate into a killer? And well, since we don't have an article, we can only speculate. You can be the perfect parent (or close to it) and your child can still lose sight of what is...acceptable, and what isn't. I'm sure that wasn't the case in this scenario, but out and out blaming it on the parent when there's no information to be had, may not be the wisest thing to do, even if it's the most likely.


apparently, you didn't fully read what i said; it's a parenting trend and yes, it seems that some kids actually do need someone to tell them what to do/not to do *more than there should be.* since so many kids today don't experience consequence of actions on lesser issues, they won't appreciate the fact that bad actions are rewarded with punishment; they believe that they can do no wrong and that acting out in anger is no different than any other action.

ask someone in their thirties or older if such things happened; they'll say no or rarely. why? because kids were actually disciplined with the intent of teaching self control and consequence of action-kids actually understood that breaking rules and laws could land them in a great deal of trouble *yes, there were exceptions, but today the exception IS the rule.*

also, i explained why this kid did what he did; NON PARENTING, but somehow, you missed that as well. mom and dad aren't in the picture, whether it's partially or fully isn't the issue; the fact that they aren't there is-he committed an act of violence that was greatly disproportional to the actual situation, a distressing trend among most of todays people-act out as you wish, rather than walk away.

it's a complete load of crap; no one is ever responsible these days, whether its road rage, sport rage, teasing, bullying, hot coffee or fast food, no one is to blame for the actions they take, it's always someone else's fault for their reaction in a given situation-this is unacceptable.

as has been stated, this kid knows it was wrong, yet did so anyway; in a rage or not, they knew and chose to follow through with the action, which, realistically should garner him an appropriate punishment, but he will most likely plead 'x rage' and get some slap on the wrist-yet another person escapes the full punishment due for lack of using good sense and judgement.

spontaneous reaction? also a load of crap; i have a rotten temper, yet i have never once fought with anyone beyond WORDS. why? because i have enough control over myself to stop at that point, but yet others continue on-the point is not that i'm better, but that it can be controlled, people just choose to go ahead with fighting because they think it's warranted. fine-with that in mind, an assault charge is warranted because they physically harmed another person.

spanking/not spanking is crap; unless there's a line crossed *where it becomes an actual BEATING* harm isn't really done-it's not about causing pain, but reminding the child that they aren't in control and that punishment is the result when rules are broken.

spanking isn't warranted in all cases, nor does it work for every child-to say that it damages one's pysche/ego to a high degree is crap; if their ego/psyche is that easily hurt, then they'd best stay home-for life. life's harder than anything in the home, and if they can't handle what's in the home, they'll be crushed due to their weakness.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
also, i explained why this kid did what he did; NON PARENTING, but somehow, you missed that as well. mom and dad aren't in the picture, whether it's partially or fully isn't the issue; the fact that they aren't there is


Ever so sorry, I'll be sure to fully understand everything that you said, from now on.

So, where were the parents? I am not familiar with this incident, and as such, I am only SPECULATING what had happened.

Quote:
it's a complete load of crap; no one is ever responsible these days, whether its road rage, sport rage, teasing, bullying, hot coffee or fast food, no one is to blame for the actions they take, it's always someone else's fault for their reaction in a given situation-this is unacceptable.


I disagree. A child who was teasing another child was in the wrong, of course, but it wasn't his fault if he got a bat to the head. I know this isn't what you're implying, but anyone is to blame for the action they take. If you choose to react a certain way, you're responsible. If you're doing something, you're ultimately deciding to do it.


Quote:
spontaneous reaction? also a load of crap; i have a rotten temper, yet i have never once fought with anyone beyond WORDS. why? because i have enough control over myself to stop at that point, but yet others continue on-the point is not that i'm better, but that it can be controlled, people just choose to go ahead with fighting because they think it's warranted. fine-with that in mind, an assault charge is warranted because they physically harmed another person.


It IS a spontaneous reaction. If you've ever been bullied or pushed to the point where you feel like you need to kill someone, then maybe you'll understand. I'm not saying that was the case here, but I've seen it happen, and have maybe been pushed to that point with the parentals a couple times. It happens, and it has. All it takes is one moment where you can't take anymore, and that can result in anything.

I'm glad that you have control over your rotten temper, but others cannot, and have no idea how to deal with it. It's more than a matter of having a temper in the first place.

Quote:
spanking/not spanking is crap; unless there's a line crossed *where it becomes an actual BEATING* harm isn't really done-it's not about causing pain, but reminding the child that they aren't in control and that punishment is the result when rules are broken.


Not every child will understand that spanking is the right thing that needs to be done. If it were so easy to say "harm isn't really done" then I'm sure the issue wouldn't be so controversial these days. You can remind children in other ways that they aren't in control, and really, if you need to put a child over your knee to remind them who is in control, maybe there's a bigger issue to be dealt with, than just "reminding" them.

Quote:
spanking isn't warranted in all cases, nor does it work for every child-to say that it damages one's pysche/ego to a high degree is crap; if their ego/psyche is that easily hurt, then they'd best stay home-for life. life's harder than anything in the home, and if they can't handle what's in the home, they'll be crushed due to their weakness


Really? Well then, let's hope society listens and accepts your decision and we give up talking about it. True, some children can handle it like it's normal, but others cannot, for whatever reason. There may be a fine line between spanking and hitting, one that not very child acknowledges.

And also, home can easily be a lot more damaging than "real life" can. There are so many things that happen behind closed doors, so I wouldn't really assume that everything is all peaches and cream at home with mommy and daddy. That's where the difficulty usually begins.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

It IS a spontaneous reaction. If you've ever been bullied or pushed to the point where you feel like you need to kill someone, then maybe you'll understand. I'm not saying that was the case here, but I've seen it happen, and have maybe been pushed to that point with the parentals a couple times. It happens, and it has. All it takes is one moment where you can't take anymore, and that can result in anything.

I'm glad that you have control over your rotten temper, but others cannot, and have no idea how to deal with it. It's more than a matter of having a temper in the first place.


actually, i have been there and didn't react that way; it has nothing to do with a person reacting. i could understand maybe throwing a punch, but a weapon? no, absolutely not; we aren't cavemen, striking out with clubs. yes, teasing is wrong; does it warrant violence? no, not on your life, nor should it ever go this far.

no, not all homes have a great life, only a fool thinks so; you missed that point as well-the world will literally hand you your ass, so crying and whining about 'how stressful this or that is' or 'how unfair x is,' learn to deal with it, rather than lash out as a common reaction.

take a look around you; kids are spoiled because mom and dad insist that their kids should have everything they didn't-a philosophy that has backfired completely. these same kids demand everything, think that they can do no wrong and expect the world to bow at their feet. reality-no one cares, nor are they going to make exceptions.

i wonder how these same kids would have managed had they lived with the same scenario our parents/grandparents grew up with? might teach them some appreciatiion for what they have, rather than act like sullen, sulky little brats.

Quote:

Really? Well then, let's hope society listens and accepts your decision and we give up talking about it. True, some children can handle it like it's normal, but others cannot, for whatever reason. There may be a fine line between spanking and hitting, one that not very child acknowledges.


yes, i'm sure you with your, what, 16 or 17 years of living know so much more than anyone else, especially when it comes to parenting and children. please, do tell us where we're all going wrong, if discipline isn't the answer?

to say that losing control is acceptable simply because the person is pushed is thoroughly asinine. it plays into what a defense lawyer wants-that his client isn't responsible because they suffered from a temporary mental defect. pure bull-mental state aside, you are resposible from the moment you 'react.' unless you have a genuine mental issue, you can't claim 'i wasn't me.' that's a pathetica attempt to escape responsibility, period.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
actually, i have been there and didn't react that way; it has nothing to do with a person reacting. i could understand maybe throwing a punch, but a weapon? no, absolutely not; we aren't cavemen, striking out with clubs. yes, teasing is wrong; does it warrant violence? no, not on your life, nor should it ever go this far.


That's great that you can control yourself, and that you're in your right mind, but there are those who are not. Most cases, no, but it is perfectly acceptable to believe that this is a less than a split second decision to inflict harm on another individual. We've all done something that we've regret, be it saying the wrong thing, or doing the wrong thing in the heat of the moment. Coupled with a child, or an adult, incapable of handling such situations, and pushed to a breaking point, that regretful situation can escalate into something much more serious.

Quote:
no, not all homes have a great life, only a fool thinks so; you missed that point as well-the world will literally hand you your ass, so crying and whining about 'how stressful this or that is' or 'how unfair x is,' learn to deal with it, rather than lash out as a common reaction.


Gee I miss a lot of things. You seem to be speaking from personal experience. No one has to deal with anything if we just stop doing what we're doing to hurt someone. Sometimes "crying and whining" is all we can do. We're only human. Not very many people can accept your mentality (although I for one agree with it, surprisingly) and life must be very hard for them. Just because we're all going to have such an imperfect, stressful life doesn't mean that we should shut up and stop complaining.

Quote:
reality-no one cares, nor are they going to make exceptions


Sorry that you feel that way.

Quote:
i wonder how these same kids would have managed had they lived with the same scenario our parents/grandparents grew up with? might teach them some appreciatiion for what they have, rather than act like sullen, sulky little brats


Yes, back in times when abuse was acceptable. Instead of whining and complaining, my parents just lived in fear of their own, instead of killing their peers. They might have had appreciation because they were lucky to be alive.

Quote:
yes, i'm sure you with your, what, 16 or 17 years of living know so much more than anyone else, especially when it comes to parenting and children. please, do tell us where we're all going wrong, if discipline isn't the answer?


it's 18, sorry. I've been there, done it all, because I was a child myself, once. That's all of the experience I need, thank you.

Quote:
to say that losing control is acceptable simply because the person is pushed is thoroughly asinine.


Really? Who said that?

Quote:
it plays into what a defense lawyer wants-that his client isn't responsible because they suffered from a temporary mental defect. pure bull-mental state aside, you are resposible from the moment you 'react.' unless you have a genuine mental issue, you can't claim 'i wasn't me.' that's a pathetica attempt to escape responsibility, period.


I agree completely!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It is a very sad and tragic thing.

Murder is a cruel crime but giving a child a death sentence or long life in jail sentence is unfair.

If we want to be just we should punish the family, school, and the society that child grew in.

A child this age shouldn't be held the full responsibility for this kind of crime, and in this case we shouldn't judge this child based on the few information we have, the only thing we know is that this crime was motivated by anger, we don't know anything about the child's background, how was he raised, and what did he face before committing this crime.

As I see it, in this case it was a simple issue of snapping and bombing anger, it is not pre planned thing like what few of you said, it seemed like that child just grabbed the nearest thing to him and used it on the other one, it is not like he followed and ambushed him (that would be a planned thing).

I'm not saying he didn't knew a thing, yes he did knew how to use the bat and where to use it, but it seems he certainly didn't knew what his action will really cause at the end.

We must remember that we are talking about a child after all, and not all children of this age know the meaning of taking life, knowing the age of this child we can fairly assume that he plays videogames and watches movies for his age, two things that doesn't focus on the true meaning of life, two things where we can see taking life as a simple thing, and two things where a life of certain beings doesn't matter much, so how is it possible for a child in these conditions to know what life is.

If what they see and experience everyday doesn't teach them what life is then how are they supposed to know.

There are also a lot of other factors that might've helped in this crime but the one that have most effect in my opinion in this case is ignorance.

If we had parents, school, and society with enough awareness, we wouldn't have these kinds of crimes.

As for what kind of punishment suited for this case, I say there shouldn't be any punishment that puts him in a jail or a hospital for psychos, forgiving and teaching that child the responsibility and meaning of what he did is the most important thing, imprisoning and reminding him of the horrible thing he done won't do anyone any good.

What would benefit anyone by putting him in a jail and making him loose a precious time of his life for a thing he didn't have full awareness of?

I know is it something hard for the parent's of the deceased child, but it is also hard for the other child's parent's, making it more harder for them isn't fair also.
If we are talking about an older kid, then it would be a little bit different in matter of punishment, but forgiving and teaching the child should also apply.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You're right about the punishment, Njord, I take back my statement earlier to just throw them in there. I was speaking with the memory of an accident that happened here- a 14 year old boy derailed the tracks of an oncoming train- HUGE mess. Lives lost. Pain, suffering and whatnot....and he wasn't even sorry. He was found again, torturing a cat and tried to beat off the boy who tried to save the cat. It's hard to imagine just completely...unawareness to such a situation. Can you imagine derailing a train and then just not feeling...anything? I was too quick to assume that all child criminals were like this, because obviously, many of them are sympathetic and apologetic afterwards.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No worry St.Ajora, I fully understand everyone.

And hey, we all are here to learn and listen to each other.

We all say things the way we see it, at the end what matters is that we all listen and understand each other, not necessary agree with each other.
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