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Tragic state of life
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Daniel Blackhand

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject: Tragic state of life Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A 13 year old pitcher on a baseball team lost their first game of the season. After the game a 15 year old boy was teasing him, when the younger boy puller out a bat and hit him once in the knees and than once in the head killing him. What are your opinions on all of theses heinous crimes committed by teens and how should they be punished.

I personally feel that teens that commit theses acts of violence should not be coddled, but instead punished for taking anothers life. At that age you are smart enough to know that you are committing a crime and should be punished as such.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I can't stand watching the news anymore, because every night you hear of at least one incedent in a schoolyard or at a playground or whatever. I also couldn't agree more, and think the system should be redone. Manslaughter is one thing, you could accidentally kill someone one day, and it might not be your fault, unless it occurs from ignorance or negligence, but murder, rape, treason and the crimes adults get the death penalty in America for a Child should be punished severely for (but no death penalty). Yes, treason. A 13 year old selling Plutonium to North Korea should be punished in the same manner as an adult who does it.

Kids who are in their teens that commit murder, either 1st or 2nd degree, should Do the adult sentence length, but start in Juvy and stay there until they're 19, but never get Capital Punishment. What I really hate are these school shootings. "No one liked me, waah", as soon as you decided to pick up a gun and go kill them you should have picked up a phone and got yourself some therapy.

Quote:
At that age you are smart enough to know that you are committing a crime and should be punished as such.


That's a very relevant point, since most Psychoanalysts agree that the personality stops developing around 14, but not everyone stops changing there. Aside from psychiatric evaluations to find out if someone is depressed or psychotic, a whole bunch of other ones should be made to assess things like Moral/ethical standpoint, Social and Societal factors, Personality, Intelligence and so on. Yes it would cost more money, but then it could also tell you the difference between a kid who will kill again and one who is very sorry and got caught up in the moment.

Great Thread, Lord Dredd.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think there are different ways you have to handle different situations. In this particular case you have presented us with i think this person should be tried as a adult. You would have a hard time convincing me he didn't know what he was doing when he struck another person with a bat. What i don't think, from the small amount of information i have, is that the younger kid intended to kill the older kid. This is a big factor in the way he would be charged and how the trial would go. The younger kid was angry and embarassed from the teasing and desired to hurt the older kid, but i doubt he meant to kill him. It takes a rare and truly disturbed person to purposefully take another person's life and i doubt this was the case with this younger child. This act was done out of anger and there was the obvious intent to hurt another person with a deadly object, which at his age he should have known what he was doing. When you use a weapon of this sort to hurt another person the capabilities are known, but trying to kill that person is something few intend to do. Unfortunately the child will have to live with the guilt for the rest of his life.

I believe he should be punished harshly, but not punished the way you would punish a child who used a gun or a knife. A bat can do a lot of damage but it wasn't premeditated and he used the bat only because it was probably close to him. A very sad story to say the least. I can only imagine how the older child's parents feel and how they would like the other child to be dealt with.
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Lunarblade

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Honestly, I think it's pretty hard for a teenager to be in total control of the emotions...the raging hormones, etc. I don't think that it makes what the kid did any more acceptable, of course. He should definitely do time, but I think they should give the kid a chance later once he becomes an adult (20-30 years later) and see if he's learned and can be a contributing member of society. If so, give him a shot. I think that if somebody does something when they're very young and don't really know what the significance of what they're doing is, they should get one more shot later in life.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lunarblade wrote:
Honestly, I think it's pretty hard for a teenager to be in total control of the emotions...the raging hormones, etc. I don't think that it makes what the kid did any more acceptable, of course. He should definitely do time, but I think they should give the kid a chance later once he becomes an adult (20-30 years later) and see if he's learned and can be a contributing member of society. If so, give him a shot. I think that if somebody does something when they're very young and don't really know what the significance of what they're doing is, they should get one more shot later in life.


Trust me, in this day and age it is. I should know seeing as I am one.
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Daniel Blackhand

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That brings me to another point about trials. Someone gets caught and is proven without a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty, they pull out the temporary insanity card. I don't care if your sane or not, if you commit the crime you should do the time.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
What are your opinions on all of theses heinous crimes committed by teens and how should they be punished


Disgusting. Throw them all behind bars. I'm all for forgiveness, but if I lost a child in such an incident, that feeling would be out the door.

Quote:
The younger kid was angry and embarassed from the teasing and desired to hurt the older kid, but i doubt he meant to kill him


You'd be surprised what kids feel when they are bullied. Perhaps that this was the point of no return- that was it, he had had it. When pushed to that point kids embrace that hatred and turn it into murder or suicide. Most often, it's suicide.

But then again, the kid might not have been a victim of bullying at all and was just a sociopath.

Quote:
Honestly, I think it's pretty hard for a teenager to be in total control of the emotions...the raging hormones, etc. I don't think that it makes what the kid did any more acceptable, of course.


Right. Besides, the hormones are always to blame. Honestly, this whole mass hysteria about growing up is ridiculous. Get over it, dudes. We all get older, we all freak out, so stop going boo hoo over it and listening to Simple Plan 24/7. Teenagers today seem to cry about the smallest things.

Sorry, I got sidetracked.

Quote:
I think that if somebody does something when they're very young and don't really know what the significance of what they're doing is,


I disagree. That's almost like saying all suicide bombers are crazy. Many teenagers who do this stuff are fully aware of what they are doing, not because mommy or daddy didn't sit down and have the discussion about life with them.

Quote:
That brings me to another point about trials. Someone gets caught and is proven without a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty, they pull out the temporary insanity card


The wonders of the justice system, ahhh.
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Sage

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

First of all, kids know what happens when you take a bat to someone. When you're a teenager you're not totally ignorant of the fact when you hit someone with a solid object, it hurts. And, when you hit someone in the head, it hurts more. In my opinion, that's an oversimplification. Plus, the fact that he went for the knees first suggests some kind of either strategy (sick, I know) or some sort of perverse pleasure in the pain he caused (even sicker). Quite frankly, whether or not he was going to kill him, if he has a bad enough temper to take a bat to someone over a baseball game, he doesn't need to be around other kids.

About the insanity card, I wouldn't mind if they locked them up anyway. The fact you go after "mental instability" or "mentally unfit" to stand trial alone proves that they shouldn't be out in society. If they've committed a heinous crime AND they're mentally unstable, even more reason to lock them away.
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Vincent Chase

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I understand that it can get difficult to control some of your urges as a teenager, but seriously, all of us have been there or are currently there, and we do not commit these crimes (I'm certain). A child may not know the difference between right and wrong but a teenager is morally independant and should know alot better.

Right Said Dredd says:
Quote:
That brings me to another point about trials. Someone gets caught and is proven without a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty, they pull out the temporary insanity card. I don't care if your sane or not, if you commit the crime you should do the time.


And of course it's also going to be a few months or even years before they even go to trial, and alot of trials over controversial crimes and cases can drag on for years, like OJ Simpson. It annoys the hell out of me that some crazy people get off with the old insanity defense, but you can't put insane people in the general population of a prison. That way you end up with either one dead crazy person or many dead inmates, its lose-lose.

St. Ajora says:
Quote:
Right. Besides, the hormones are always to blame. Honestly, this whole mass hysteria about growing up is ridiculous. Get over it, dudes. We all get older, we all freak out, so stop going boo hoo over it and listening to Simple Plan 24/7. Teenagers today seem to cry about the smallest things.


It's all about society/others not accepting them. It's hard to accept you when all you do is play videogames all day, have no confidence and don't attempt to impact said society. I know hundreds of people, I know a person with schizophrenia, a person with only one arm and even a whole crew of 'little people'. All of them love life, and it shows that how you perceive yourself is how society perceives you.

FF6Sage says:
Quote:
Plus, the fact that he went for the knees first suggests some kind of either strategy (sick, I know) or some sort of perverse pleasure in the pain he caused (even sicker).


It actually suggests he's smart. The kid he clocked was 15, and probably bigger. The best way to take out a bigger opponent is to eliminate their legs, everyone knows that.

As for your other quote, see what I said to Right Said Dredd. Insane people + Prisoners who think they're tough = not a good mix.

The insanity defense annoys the hell out of me in ways, but if I ever snapped and lost it it'd be the first thing I'd use in court, it's not hard to act insane since there's a disorder for about everything.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Plus, the fact that he went for the knees first suggests some kind of either strategy


Quote:
It actually suggests he's smart. The kid he clocked was 15, and probably bigger. The best way to take out a bigger opponent is to eliminate their legs, everyone knows that


Well it's also painfully obvious that he knew exactly what he was doing when he hit the guy twice. I don't think it had anything to do with age or being underpowered.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Hot Ice wrote:
And of course it's also going to be a few months or even years before they even go to trial, and alot of trials over controversial crimes and cases can drag on for years, like OJ Simpson. It annoys the hell out of me that some crazy people get off with the old insanity defense, but you can't put insane people in the general population of a prison. That way you end up with either one dead crazy person or many dead inmates, its lose-lose.


Solitary confinement.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Like most of you, teenagers should already know that killing is bad. As St. Ajora pointed out, he seemed intent on murdering the 15 year old. But i overall agree with Lunarblade.
Lunarblade wrote:
Honestly, I think it's pretty hard for a teenager to be in total control of the emotions...the raging hormones, etc. I don't think that it makes what the kid did any more acceptable, of course. He should definitely do time, but I think they should give the kid a chance later once he becomes an adult (20-30 years later) and see if he's learned and can be a contributing member of society. If so, give him a shot. I think that if somebody does something when they're very young and don't really know what the significance of what they're doing is, they should get one more shot later in life.


Education is a key aspect in maintaining order. The 13 year old must be punished, but he must also learn why beating that 15 year old was an immensely huge mistake. Being a teenager is mainly about finding yourself, since you're now so sure about yourself back in your adolescence. And we all get lost on the way. Well, perhaps not like this kid. But who knows what he went through.

The Hot Ice wrote:
It annoys the hell out of me that some crazy people get off with the old insanity defense, but you can't put insane people in the general population of a prison. That way you end up with either one dead crazy person or many dead inmates, its lose-lose.

I don't think they do that. Aren't they supposed to take them to an institution for rehabilitation?
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Daniel Blackhand

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

When I was in fifth grade I came real close to taking a bat to someone out of anger, and if I knew at that age what I was doing than a teenager surely does. I would understand the first shot to the knees, but the second shot to the head was clearly uncalled for and shows that he knew what he was doing.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

to say that they can't control themselves due to hormones is a load of crap; bullying was around when i was that age, as was anger and other issues brought up whenever a kid kills, yet it didn't happen. why? it seems that parents don't want to take the time to actually parent; instead, society, school, others are responsible for controlling and teaching said child right from wrong.

these same parents, who can't be bothered to actually raise their kids are the same ones who are 'oh so surprised' when junior/juniorette gets into any kind of trouble-they proceed to blame anyone and everyone except the responsible parties, namely, themselves and their child.

if you aren't willing to be a parent, don't become one-simple as that. you, as a parent, are obligated to discipline, teach self control and right from wrong. if you can't set the example, its no shock that junior/juniorette ends up, at best, like the parent, or at worst, a person on their way to a criminal record. wake up, folks; having kids is a harsh responsibilty that can't be pawned off on other parties, now, later or ever.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But not all parents are to blame in these situations. I mean, do you even need a parent to tell you not to whack someone over the head with a bat? We all pick that one up some time or another, but that's not really the point here. The point is, where were the parents that let this kid escalate into a killer? And well, since we don't have an article, we can only speculate. You can be the perfect parent (or close to it) and your child can still lose sight of what is...acceptable, and what isn't. I'm sure that wasn't the case in this scenario, but out and out blaming it on the parent when there's no information to be had, may not be the wisest thing to do, even if it's the most likely.
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