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The mind of an FF fan
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Darkbeat




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Himuro wrote:
Quote:
Final Fantasy quite commonly gives players dialogue options that affect the responses that other characters give, change plot events, and even determine how well other characters like you, which can come back later in the game, such as the date scene in Final Fantasy VII or Tidus's relationship with either Rikku or Lulu in Final Fantasy X.


The only FF's that have done that are FFVII and FFX and even then it was an after thought. Final Fantasy offers little to no freedom at all.


Nice generalisation.

You go on a rant calling those mentioning their likes/dislikes of the series "Final Fantasy fanboys" then come off with a ridiculous comment like this. Seriously, if every Final Fantasy thread "degrades" into discussion on (gasp) individual games of the Final Fantasy series, then just don't go into them. You have done nothing to re-rail the thread other than show off your own bias towards the series and illustrate that those who blindly hate each game because of its name, are just as bad as those who blindly love it for the same reason.
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The simple answer is that different people have different expectations and preferences. Hence, the series is either overally good or overally bad or overally mediocre. Those who like the series will continue to play, those who hate the series would stop playing, and those who are indifferent would play some and skip some.

If you belong to the "hate the series" group, then don't expect to be able to understand why those who belong to the "like the series" group continue to play the game because you have different ideas than them and simply won't be able to understand how they think. And vice versa.

I think more people should play Final Fantasy XI to realize that the series is not going downhill since Final Fantasy VII (which seems to be the general idea among the haters). For me personally, I've always thought that the series is overally okay. I don't bother with the old games, and out of the ones that I played, I only hate Final Fantasy VIII. Tactics Advance was rather weak too, but it wasn't all that bad. VII was okay-good-ish, Tactics was great, both IX and XI are just great great great. Oh, Final Fantasy X was decent too for me.

But yeah, in general, the answer is simply the fact that everyone has their own preferences. Obviously some of them will continue to play Final Fantasy games.
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Darkbeat wrote:
Nice generalisation.

You go on a rant calling those mentioning their likes/dislikes of the series "Final Fantasy fanboys" then come off with a ridiculous comment like this. Seriously, if every Final Fantasy thread "degrades" into discussion on (gasp) individual games of the Final Fantasy series, then just don't go into them. You have done nothing to re-rail the thread other than show off your own bias towards the series and illustrate that those who blindly hate each game because of its name, are just as bad as those who blindly love it for the same reason.


Except that the comment is, well, true. You haven't even done anything to dispute that fact and show the choices mean anything. All the choices in the game series lead to the same ends with the same path taken there. Tonberry was talking about how choices gave different plot events and such, in reality, they don't, the plot remains the same, the dialogue may slightly change, but it doesn't lead to anything other than a few different lines of text. There may be slight dialogue changes, but it's not really freedom of action because nothing you do changes the set course of events. They program what's going to happen and it's going to happen regardless of what you do. It's not a ridiculous comment, it's a true one. I've not played a game that allowed me to rally determine the plot in any way. The closest was Final Fantasy VI where I could go through and rerecruit characters in the World of Ruin, and that didn't affect the plot, just what characters I got.

And talk about putting int on topic, your rant didn't even address what you were commenting on, it was just an excuse for an attack on Himuro.


Last edited by Amyral on Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Amyral wrote:
They program what's going to happen and it's going to happen regardless of what you do. It's not a ridiculous comment, it's a true one.

While I agree that it's a true comment, it is a ridiculous one too at the same time though. It's like stating the obvious. They program what's going to happen and it's going to happen regardless of what you do. D'oh. That's why people buy a game. To experience something that is going to happen in the game because it is being programmed to happen by the programmers. And the point is ... ?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maybe it would be better if we did not steer the discussion by nitpicking on every sentence that seems technically odd.

What he meant, I assume, is more to the effect of "the program only has one thing to happen and that one thing is going to happen regardless of what we do". As opposed to, for example, programming various alternative things to happen and having only one or a select few of them happening according to what we do.
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Himuro

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Aurelien wrote:
Amyral wrote:
They program what's going to happen and it's going to happen regardless of what you do. It's not a ridiculous comment, it's a true one.

While I agree that it's a true comment, it is a ridiculous one too at the same time though. It's like stating the obvious. They program what's going to happen and it's going to happen regardless of what you do. D'oh. That's why people buy a game. To experience something that is going to happen in the game because it is being programmed to happen by the programmers. And the point is ... ?


What are you talking about? Someone said one thing, when it is in fact, incorrect. That's how we do things. That's how I roll. If I'm wrong, then correct me.
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Aurelien wrote:

While I agree that it's a true comment, it is a ridiculous one too at the same time though. It's like stating the obvious. They program what's going to happen and it's going to happen regardless of what you do. D'oh. That's why people buy a game. To experience something that is going to happen in the game because it is being programmed to happen by the programmers. And the point is ... ?


The real point was rather clear, you either just missed it or ignored it so you could snark needlessly.

It was a comment on the actual level of freedom in the games, not on stating the obvious that every option is programmed. It would be better stated in that they only really program one real path in the game for you to take, but I think it was a clear enough as to what I meant, since the context was there and others seemed to get it fine. The original comment was that the games offered little to no real freedom, for which he was criticized as a generalization. My comment was related to that, which it would provide a rather clear context.

A lot of people like that in the games, and that's fine. I like a lot of the games in the series as well, it had nothing to do with the actual quality of the games, just with the statements as to the level of genuine freedom you have in them, which is often overstated.
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Himuro

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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In Final Fantasy X-2, you technically can choose either side, but come later chapters, it doesn't make any real difference.


Actually, I would say FFX-2 and FFXI are the only FF's that offer any sort of freedom. In FFX-2, you can go anywhere you want, at any time. It completely changes typical rpg game structure and offers a different type of freedom. You can make the game as hard or as easy as you want by going into areas that have harder/easier monsters, you can make it as long as or as short as you want. FFX-2's plot is actually very short and can be finished in a few hours if you just do the required missions. It's the reason I like Final Fantasy X-2, so much. It fixes a lot of problems I have with Japanese rpgs.

Final Fantasy obviously gives you freedom because it's an mmorpg. You can pick what nation you start in, what race, your class...and even then there's a HUGE world that's begging to be explored.

So yes, I would say that there are some Final Fantasy's that offer some amount of freedom to the player, but for the most part, FF's are exactly known for that.
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Himuro wrote:


Actually, I would say FFX-2 and FFXI are the only FF's that offer any sort of freedom. In FFX-2, you can go anywhere you want, at any time. It completely changes typical rpg game structure and offers a different type of freedom. You can make the game as hard or as easy as you want by going into areas that have harder/easier monsters, you can make it as long as or as short as you want. FFX-2's plot is actually very short and can be finished in a few hours if you just do the required missions. It's the reason I like Final Fantasy X-2, so much. It fixes a lot of problems I have with Japanese rpgs.

Final Fantasy obviously gives you freedom because it's an mmorpg. You can pick what nation you start in, what race, your class...and even then there's a HUGE world that's begging to be explored.


I don't include Final Fantasy XI with the others because it's an mmorpg, which really makes it a different subset of rpg's than the other ones are. Every MMORPG I've seen is open-ended and non-linear, which is just the nature of those games. They're really just a different genre from regular console rpgs.

I can see that argument for FFX-2.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's quite simple actually, every single person mistook the game's title meaning, they thought it was a pr0n game.

Every westerner thought they were buying the seventh issue of a long standing japanese porn movie franchise. Poor bastards.

Tifa's attributes didn't help either! Every single player saw the game till the end (with subquests included) in hopes of seeing some booty.

What's sad is that my argument is a lot happier than the "blind fanboyism" one, haha.
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Falcon Critical

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While I agree that FFs are intrinsically linear, its hardly a reason to dis them. Pretty much every RPG out of japan is linear, from your FFs to your Tales of Destiny to your Suikodens. Sure Suikoden has multiple endings, but for the majority of the story you are still on one linear path.

Personally I like linear RPGs, though I can understand that after a few in a row you would start getting frustrated with the lack of 'choice'. That's where games like Oblivion come in, the Elder Scrolls series is well known for its complete freedom. Every line is scripted (and even spoken) but there is no pressure to follow the main story at all, and in fact you don't have to follow any stories, you can just run around exploring the world. MMORPGs are similar to this except they don't have a major storyline whatsoever.

Perhaps more freedom will come to the FF series, but its unlikely - Japanese RPGs are like reading books, the story is set in stone and you are just watching/participating in it. Like good books it is the very linear and controlled nature of them that allows the story to progress. I thought it was an interesting spin in FF12 that your character wasn't necessarily the main character... Balthier was essentially the leader and you were just along for the ride. While I did appreciate this break from the norm - the game itself didn't engross me enough and I just lost interest.
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm actually quite confused with what's considered as "freedom" and what's not. Reading Himuro's post about Final Fantasy X-2 and Final Fantasy XI, it seems that freedom is "being able to go anywhere you want anytime you want". Is it really just that? Does the fact that the plot itself is still linear play any part at all in determining whether a game gives freedom or not? Because as far as I'm concerned, even the MMORPG Final Fantasy XI has a linear plot (not to mention that you can't actually go anywhere you want anytime you want). But in general it is considered as "freedom" because you can pick your home nation, your race, etc. In a sense, Final Fantasy XI gives "freedom" more in terms of gameplay (your race, job, subjob, etc).

Having said that, should we consider gameplay freedom as "freedom" too? Personally, I'd say yes, so then how about the junction system of Final Fantasy VIII? That's a crapload of customization that gives the freedom of how you want to set your characters to be. To a lesser extent, how about the materia system in Final Fantasy VII? And the job system, the brave thingy, and the ability to use monsters in your party in Final Fantasy Tactics? Are they not freedom too?

To me, it's rather silly to say that Final Fantasy games are not giving freedom to the players. Of course they're not really plot freedom in a sense of a non-linear game, but linear or non-linear, it doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of the games because linear games would have different standard compared to non-linear games. Non-linear games are mostly offering gameplay as the main selling point. Linear games are instead selling the story as the main selling point.

Like Falcon Critical said, it's like reading a book. That's why people buy the book. So they can read the story that is written by the writer. The same goes to Final Fantasy games. Though it doesn't offer plot freedom, it's not an issue at all because the players don't expect to have such freedom anyway.
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Masaya

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

All I know is the mind of a FF player means hearing boca burgers and wondering if this is really what chocobo tastes like.
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Himuro

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Aurelien wrote:
I'm actually quite confused with what's considered as "freedom" and what's not. Reading Himuro's post about Final Fantasy X-2 and Final Fantasy XI, it seems that freedom is "being able to go anywhere you want anytime you want". Is it really just that?


It's a part of it. GTA offers amazing freedom, so much that a lot of games have been inspired to make their games more non linear in game structure. Dragon Quest VIII has a huge expansive world where you can always find something to do, that's freedom in the sense that you are not always relegated to one path.

However, there are some games like Baldurs Gate 2, KOTOR, stuff like that, where the story changes depending on what actions you take.

Still, freedom in games can be defined as giving the player a choice, gameplay or story wise.

Quote:
Personally, I'd say yes, so then how about the junction system of Final Fantasy VIII? That's a crapload of customization that gives the freedom of how you want to set your characters to be. To a lesser extent, how about the materia system in Final Fantasy VII? And the job system, the brave thingy, and the ability to use monsters in your party in Final Fantasy Tactics? Are they not freedom too?


Extremely good point. Final Fantasy's often have very versatile and customizable systems, but they aren't really THAT customizable. You can't change how your characters look, their race, their sex or anything like that, and the only FF that allows you to do that is FFXI.

I guess you could consider this a case of how much customization and freedom you get, and the player's expectations of what they consider that as such. When it comes to character customization, that's not freedom to me. Building a character from the ground up and seeing him develop is freedom. That said, Final Fantasy Tactics has something like this, albeit a tad stream lined.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The megami tensei games are pretty much the only exception I can think of regarding japanese rpg's and freedom.

I'm still playing persona 3, but from what I played of Nocturne I can say there isn't any given path. Of course your actions end up giving you a special game finale but I never felt as lost as in those games (regarding what to do to, "get the story moving")
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