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The mind of an FF fan
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: The mind of an FF fan Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

On another forum I visit, we've been having a multi-thread debate over this topic ( http://www.evermoreforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22876 if you want to see what started it.) So it has come to my attention that this is one of the most mind-boggling topics in modern society. Why do people like FF so much? If you look at the series, most people say that 1 is a classic, 7/9 is one of the best RPGs ever, 9/7 is one of the worst RPGs ever (very seldom does one like one without hating the other), Tactics, 4, 6, and 10 are excellent, and 8 is only mediocre. There are something like 20 FF games out right now, and that's only 6 or 7 that are good. That's not a very good percentage (around 35%.) Yet the fans are so easily able to block off the bad of the series and play up the series to a point that they can even force themselves to like XII.

So my question is: What the fuck? Explain your answer.
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Timbo

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think alot of the appeal of FF games is in its nostalgia ability. Back in SNES days, Final Fantasy was the definitive RPG and I think that put a huge impact into people's minds. I think this caused much of FF to become iconic and people like it more as an icon than as a game.

But honestly, I think I FF has been going downhill for a while. XII blew, I never played XI, X-2 was lame and all of the spin offs have been getting horribly rated.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Final Fantasy wasn't even known of until FF7 for most people. That game was just so different and COOL at the time that people (still) can't get enough of it. Hence the multiple spin-offs and rapid succession of sequels.

I think people still buy FF games because they secretly hope there'll be another like FF7. While it is possible I could safely say at the current rate it's not likely.
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Tron Bonne

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I looked on wikipedia, and there is something like 47-48 final fantasy games(not counting remakes), so that percentage is much lower.

Timbo is right about nostalgia. I have good memories of first ten final fantasies. X-2 and up are pure crap (not sure about XIII yet, as no one has played it yet)

I think a big part of it is that magazines hype up the games so much that people start to believe that its the best series ever. Then fansites take that belief and run with it. I hate to quote a nazi, but Goebbels is attributed with saying "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

The final fantasy games are good, but not great, and certainly not the "best series ever"
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I do indeed buy the games for the reason that I keep hoping that they will stop spewing out shit and get back to games like FF6 and 7 without it being a spin-off or sequel. But I'm losing hope, and FFXIII is the last chance I'm giving them. But I'm still baffled as to how FFXII won game of the year last year on almost every site even with its shitty characters and plot. If professionals can't tell the difference, then what hope is there of the fans opening their eyes? Not to mention if they keep praising the crappy new games, then that will reinforce SE to make the same shit again and again.
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RedCydranth

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Final Fantasy is loved so much because it is the first real RPG that became popular in the western world. Final Fantasy was astoundingly advanced for its time. Of course we know that Dragon Quest came first and all, but in the world outside Japan, Final Fantasy was the game that made RPG a viable genre.

The series seemed to only be getting better as the release of II and III (IV and VI as we know them now) came on the SNES. Its hard to argue against the greatness of Final Fantasy VI. Even if you didn't care for the game, it was easily the most advanced game of its time. All of us older fans saw these games come out and played them. And we loved them.

Then came Final Fantasy VII. The single most talked about game in video game history. Good, bad or indifferent, people always talk about this game. Everything made for the Playstation was compared to this game. Crash Bandicoot be damned, Final Fantasy VII put Sony on the map. By this time we'd been exposed to other RPG series. We'd seen Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Dragon Quests, Breath of Fires and a few others. But Final Fantasy was the one that consistantly outshined the rest.

Squaresoft and Final Fantasy seemed to be the rock. The infallible greatness. Nothing Square could make or anything Final Fantasy could ever suck. It was this belief that has been the downfall of the company and the series. After we as gamers grew to love the works of Final Fantasy, we began expecting SO much from them.

When Final Fantasy VIII came, I remember the feeling in the air. We all expected to see a game that was every bit as awesome as VII, but more. When we got a game that wasn't as good as the pinnacles of VI, VII and CT the scrutiny began. Some loved VIII, but many did not. But regardless of the popular opinion of VIII, we all bought it and it outsold every other game that year. I might be mistaken, but it may have even beaten Final Fantasy VII's initial sales.

We fans of the franchise stuck to it. And when IX came out, again we hoped for perfection. When expectations are so high, no matter how great a game could be, it can't ever live up to those expectations. IX was a brilliant game, but because it was so different from that of VI and VII it was perceived by many as a step backwards. I remember many saying at that point that Square had lost its touch. And many cited that they'd never buy another Final Fantasy game.

Enter the PS2. Advanced graphics seemingly promised us fans greatness once again. But because of the popularity of the franchise, even after VIII and IX's apparent disdain, X too was destined to fall to the same scrutiny. Like IX, X was a good game. However people looked past the fact that the game was well designed, characters were pretty well fleshed out and seemed to harp on its shorter play time and picked on the hero archetype. It seems as if Square went from do no wrong, to do no right in a matter of 5 years.

Of course, there are the majority of fans, like myself, who liked most of the games that Square has produced since Final Fantasy VII, but there's still much scrutiny because the franchise is so loved. Its along the same lines as the New York Yankees. The fans always are the first to bash on players and management, but they seem to always back the Bronx boys every year despite whatever flaws they have.

Yvl, your answer is this. Dedication.

By the way, your numbers are askew. 35% of games are good in the FF franchise? If that is your opinion, so be it. However I'[m sure many fans will disagree. I can think of maybe 3 games in the series that I didn't like. Lets see. VIII, XI and um... Dirge of Cerberus. And thats not an RPG, so I don't consider it in the Final Fantasy RPG tally.

I guess I'm rare that I loved IX and VII. I don't hold VII as the best thing ever, but nor do I hold IX as the best either. But I must be weird, because I liked X-2. Dresspheres/Job System = Win

You say fans "force themselves" to like XII. That makes no sense. You can't force someone to like something. Their dedication to the series may make them play the game, but not like it. It was my dedication to the series that got me to play VIII, but I'll be damned if I say I liked it. Hell, it took me three tries to even beat the damned thing. I had to "force myself" to play it, not to like it. My opinion on XII is out as I've never played it.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RedCydranth, that must be the first post of your I've all of in months.

Quote:

Enter the PS2. Advanced graphics seemingly promised us fans greatness once again. But because of the popularity of the franchise, even after VIII and IX's apparent disdain, X too was destined to fall to the same scrutiny. Like IX, X was a good game. However people looked past the fact that the game was well designed, characters were pretty well fleshed out and seemed to harp on its shorter play time and picked on the hero archetype. It seems as if Square went from do no wrong, to do no right in a matter of 5 years.

I havent seen much criticism of FFX except for a few people. FFVII and FFX are the two that the fans tend to hold up as being as close to perfect as you can get.

Quote:

Yvl, your answer is this. Dedication.

Good answer, but it doesnt explain why people still decieve themselves (which is probably a better term than force) into liking the new games despite their clearly poor design. You say you've never played XII - one scene in that game is Vaan ready to rip a character's throat out in one scene, and one battlefield and a few lines of dialouge later he decides that this guy is a good guy and decides to trust him with his life unconditionally. At least in FFX you had people doubting Tidus' history until halfway through the game or so.

Quote:

By the way, your numbers are askew. 35% of games are good in the FF franchise? If that is your opinion, so be it. However I'[m sure many fans will disagree. I can think of maybe 3 games in the series that I didn't like. Lets see. VIII, XI and um... Dirge of Cerberus. And thats not an RPG, so I don't consider it in the Final Fantasy RPG tally.

As tron revealed in the hour and a half you spent writing that post, the numbers are much higher, though I'm still curious as to how many I missed and how many of them are japanese releases only.
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Shad

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I didn't follow that link because I wanted to jot my thoughts down before I got off track:

There are 12 main Final Fantasy games, of which 2, 3, 5, and 11 were released to a very limited audience or, by the time they were made available to the masses, were too dated for most people to bother with. Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy X-2 were the only spinoff titles marketed and hyped to the point where most people would immediately associate them with Final Fantasy in particular rather than just Squaresoft.

Thus the Final Fantasy you refer to can be summed up in 10 games, of which "6 or 7 are good". That's a pretty nice average.

Devil's advocate having been played, I'll say that Final Fantasy as a series is overrated and that most gamers agree with me. I've never noticed any trend as far as people either loving 7 and hating 9 or the reverse - that's a pattern I've only picked up on between 7 and 8.

The general consensus that I've observed having run a Final Fantasy website for seven years and talked to plenty of fans both new and old, is that Final Fantasy Tactics is regarded with nigh godlike admiration, FF7 is generally regarded as second best, FFs 1, 4, 6, and 9 are loved by some and hated by others but more often than not met with ambivalence, FF10 is slightly frowned upon, and FF8 and FFX-2 are commonly despised. I can't speak for 12. The almost universal consensus is that the series took a dramatic turn downhill somewhere between FF8 and FF10 and will probably never recover. I'll base all this on a demographic of at least 16+, probably 18+. I can't speak for younger gamers.

That having been said, most people either admit that Final Fantasy is only average or claim they love it basing their statement exclusively on some combination of FFs 1, 4, 6, 7, and Tactics.

I for one think FF6 and FFT are top five games of all time material, FF7 is way up there, FFs 4 and 9 are pretty damn good, FFs 5 and 10 barely broke even, and the rest were utter failures. If I was asked a straight yes or no "Do you love Final Fantasy?" question, the answer's "Yes". How can it not be? They made three of my all time favorite games and at least two more I'm really fond of. All the garbage can't negate that. If given voice to quantify my statement I'll say that the series itself is horribly overrated but has put out some monoliths.
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Tonberry

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I love the series. Final Fantasy IX is my favorite video game. There are many reasons why I love the series. First, though some end up poor, some of the best battle and ability systems I've seen in any RPG games have come out of Final Fantasy games. Second, no other RPG series has music that can compare to the compositions of Nobuo Uematsu. Sure people can argue that certain other games had really great songs, but Uematsu has created real masterpieces and has been consistently outstanding in his compositions throughout his time with Square. Third, the series has good graphics, and some people care a lot about graphics. Fourth, variation in plot allows the player to go through the games countless times to discover new things, play different ways, and enjoy the game all over again. Instead of spending your fifty bucks on a game you play through once, you spend it on a game you could potentially play ten times over! At least in my experience, it is so. Fifth, each game has an abundant number of side quests and mini games, allowing the player to either spend time having fun with optional events, or, if annoyed with certain games or quests, proceed with the story and not deal with things that may be considered annoying or a hassle. The freedom for the player to take the game and go in different directions, depending on the player's likes and dislikes, is done much better in the Final Fantasy series than in your average RPG.

Sure, it's fun to bash the series, because it's popular and you have other favorites that aren't as popular as they could--or sometimes should--be. However, it's not too fair to bash a series just because it's popular. Of course there are flaws, but people focus too much on those and don't really appreciate how many things that the series has done right. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that the series has been extraordinary though and through (since I can't get interested in anything earlier than four or after ten), the series does have some of the best RPGs ever made.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Many of you seem to be basing your experiences of FF fans from a small forum's perspective. Keep in mind that people generally go to smaller forums because they are sick of the crap at sites like Gamewinners, Gamefaqs, and Gaia, where the obsessive people tend to inhabit.

Quote:

The freedom for the player to take the game and go in different directions, depending on the player's likes and dislikes, is done much better in the Final Fantasy series than in your average RPG.

Are we playing the same game here? I can't recall one FF game with multiple endings.
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Shad

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yvl wrote:
Many of you seem to be basing your experiences of FF fans from a small forum's perspective. Keep in mind that people generally go to smaller forums because they are sick of the crap at sites like Gamewinners, Gamefaqs, and Gaia, where the obsessive people tend to inhabit.

Aye, that's a very good point to make. With that in mind my opinion is pretty much void, as I can only assess what the ah.... 'educated gamer' so to speak tends to think of each game. As popular music testifies the average human being has utterly appalling taste, so maybe they answer your "wtf" is a simple conclusion of "because they're really dumb."

My argument that you can really only base such assessments on 10 games within the series still stands though.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Quote:

The freedom for the player to take the game and go in different directions, depending on the player's likes and dislikes, is done much better in the Final Fantasy series than in your average RPG.

Are we playing the same game here? I can't recall one FF game with multiple endings.


Different endings is one way to give freedom to the player, but that's not the only way. Final Fantasy quite commonly gives players dialogue options that affect the responses that other characters give, change plot events, and even determine how well other characters like you, which can come back later in the game, such as the date scene in Final Fantasy VII or Tidus's relationship with either Rikku or Lulu in Final Fantasy X. Also, depending on which party members you have, you can come across different dialogue or options in your quest. You can take Zell to the ruined laboratory and he'll use machinery for your party, which wouldn't happen without him. You can summon Anima when you fight Seymour for the fourth time and hear Seymour respond.

If you want me to be real picky about it, I can point out that Final Fantasy X-2 had multiple endings, and that Final Fantasy IX had dialogue changes in the ending, based on your inventory. =P
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RedCydranth

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tron can say there's 8 gazillion FF games, but without proof, it means nothing. 47-48 Final Fantasy Games? Seriously, you believe that? I don't. Even including not yet made sequels to games it's not in the 40s. Hell, I doubt its in the 30s. I struggle to make 20 to be honest. Give me a list.

As Shad said, the games that count are the ones marketed. Because 2,3 and 5 never made it in the west until far later than their Japanese release date, they can't be counted as success nor failure. However in general they are liked.

Again, you can't deceive yourself into liking something. Either people lie it or they don't. Just because you find XII atrocious doesn't mean everyone else has to. What you feel is an overall poor system others may fall in love with. The Sphere Grid System in FFX is a perfect example. Some people feel it was the best system ever. It allowed ultimate customization. However others felt it was poor because it could remove any uniqueness from any character. And it really didn't take that much work to do so. Opinion can only stretch so far. If the general opinion is that a game is good, no matter how much you personally hate it, you're not gonna sway minds.

Your initial post asked why people still play a series that you felt has ran dry. I'm saying that people's dedication to the series is why.

Final Fantasy Game with Multiple Endings: Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy X-2.

What Tonberry was getting at I believe was the ability to explore deeply into various parts of the game. An example would be doing character sidequests. Like Shadow's sidequest in Final Fantasy VI. Or Celes's. Or Locke's.

Shad, I'm in 100% agreement with you on your post there.

Yvl, you seem to be basing your opinion of the series on a group of die hard fanboys who claim Sephiroth is the best character ever created in anything. I've been to some of those sites and yes, there's a slew of morons but for every moron who talks all day about how awesome Cloud and Sephiroth is, there's hundreds fans of the franchise who ignore them and don't post like crazy about the series. The only real way I can gage how popular a game is by sales and what people say on the smaller sites. Smaller sites attract a more intelligent base. Its the opinions of these intelligent folks that matter more than the "Cloud is the best, you suck" fanboys over at the bigger sites.

Quote:
I haven't seen much criticism of FFX except for a few people. FFVII and FFX are the two that the fans tend to hold up as being as close to perfect as you can get.


Okay... No. Final Fantasy X was pretty close to the most scrutinized of the series with the shortness of the game, the abusable sphere grid, the horrid voice overs and the cliché characters (This hero has a big sword too? The heroine is a helpless brunette, who heals.). Then there's the uninspiring music, the love-hate for Blitzball and the terribly overdone battle arena. Nah, X is totally loved by everyone.

Final Fantasy is loved so much because people love the games. Its that simple.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Final Fantasy fans are weird. Unlike most other game series where most of the fans tend to agree about the overall series (example: suikoden II is the most popular and rated Suikoden by fans) they often fight over which is the best. It's funny that almost every goddamn Final Fantasy discussion with an FF fan has to resolve into WHICH FF DO YOU LIKE THE BEST and it's ridiculous.

Another thing about FF fans I don't get: why don't they ever have interest in non-FF or Square Enix rpgs? When it comes to fans of the major series of other genres, they usually check out other games in the genre. People who like GTA tend to check out stuff like Crackdown or Saints Row. Fans of third person shooters tend to like Gears of War, Rainbow Six, whatever. Fans of DDR tend to not only just enjoy DDR for their music games. I can go on and on. It's like the average FF fan doesn't like the genre, just the game...and not even that, it's the regurgitated rehashed animu plot.

How much does FF have to suck and get ridiculous before Final Fantasy fans realize that Final Fantasy has jumped the shark? Or will they just play anything with the words Final Fantasy on it?

I just have to say it. I've witnessed multiple fans from multiple game series and Final Fantasy fanboys are by far the weirdest.

I mean, if you were to compare the average Dragon Quest fan to an average Final Fantasy fan, the difference would be uncanny. While most Dragon Quest fans agree that the entire series is good and full noteworthy games, most Final Fantasy fans have a goddamn egocentric view when it comes to their personal faves and whoever likes the ones they don't aren't to be trusted. Me, I think the majority of the series is worth noting and that the series has (or HAD) a good track record. FFIV-XII are all good games for their own reasons. To hear that from the average FF fan would be an anomaly.

And then there's this whole nostalgia thing. You know, Final Fantasy is okay and all but there's so many better rpgs out there, western or otherwise. The simple fact that FF fans can be hyped for an FF no matter the situation and no matter how SHITTY the game is going to be simply proves that FF fanboys feed off of nosalgia. Kingdom Hearts proves they feed off of nosalgia even more.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Considering how unrelated most of the games in the series are plotwise, it becomes a bit easier to forget the ones you didn't like. The games kind of have gone downhill lately... it's not as if there's no effort put in, though. It's more that the games are becoming very elaborate phone-in jobs. For example, FFXII visuals must have taken quite a bit to create, and other areas of the game cetainly showed a lot of work put in, but but that didn't help the finished product a whole lot.

But some people still like it, and because the games have a distinguished past, and use that wisely by dropping occasional reminders of it (Rereleases, for example), they can remind people of how much they liked some FF games, and bring new people in that way, too. It works well enough that the games sell well and are guaranteed at least 3 bonus points from any major game review site using a 10 point scale.

I can't really get excited about FF games now, though. Certainly not enough to rush out to pay full price for them (I'd be quite angry if I'd done that for FFXII!), since I know they'll always be available, or at least available for a while; they don't make them in low print runs, so much. I did like some of the earlier games, like many people, but that isn't enough to make me all that interested in buying them... plus, if I wait, I can watch to have my suspicions that the game will be terrible or mediocre confirmed.

I can't even think of 6-7 FF games that I -really- liked, anyway. FF Tactics, FF1, FF4, FF6, and (gasp) FF Mystic Quest are ones that I definitely enjoyed playing. The others that I've played range from "eh, kind of playable" to "Do any more of you think we need to incorporate FF Tactics Advance into what we do over here? No? I didn't think so!" Four of the ones on the list show up again and again because they actually were good, and certainly so at that point. The fifth one... you know, I'm pretty sure that most FF players have no idea that it was ever made.

As for the game media professionals... well, professional as in they get paid to do this, sure. But a lot of times those reviews should just not be trusted. The game media doesn't particularly strike me as one of the more competent categories of journalism, for various reasons. They can certainly be fooled, or coerced, or otherwise influenced. Or they could just show out and out bias. I get my opinions elsewhere.

I'm quite sure there are at least 20 FF games. 12 for the main series, and Tactics, Tactics Advance, X-2, Mystic Quest, Crisis Core, Before Crisis, Crystal Chronicles, and Dirge of Cerberus makes 20, although not all of them are traditional FF. If you're going to get up to near 50, though, you would need to start counting re-releases and alternate versions (and I'm not sure you could get there even then). And although those do often have slight to moderate differences, I wouldn't say that those changes make them a totally different game in most cases.
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