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NFL: Bill Bellichick and the Pats - General Discussion
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Geddoe

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:15 pm    Post subject: NFL: Bill Bellichick and the Pats - General Discussion Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/070918&spor tCat=nfl&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

As a few of you may already know, there were allegations of cheating by New England Patriots coach Bill Bellichick for illegally taping the defensive signals of the New York Jets in their week 1 win. The coach himself was fined 500K, and the team was fined 250K and draft picks.

The larger issue, as seen in this article on ESPN's Page 2, is that this incident has brought up the word 'cheating' into the same sentence as the NFL. Considering that football is one of the most watched sports in America, this unnerves me that if something like this can happen once, there's no telling how many other times with how many other people that this may have happened with, and that I'm happy that Goodell is taking a very proactive stance towards it. I would never expect to see something so straightforward coming from David Stern in the NBA, or Bud Selig in baseball. [And I'm not even going to bother with Gary Bettman in hockey.]

In any event, I hadn't seen a topic on this in the sports section, and knowing that there are a fair number of American football fans on the board, I just wanted to see what the rest of you guys thought.
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Sailor Sexy

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think it got blown up far out of proportion. The fine is fair, the media criticism isn't. Had this been the Cleveland Browns who got caught, or heck, let's say the Oakland Raiders, while the fine may have been the same, the media coverage wouldn't have. Especially if it were the Raiders. And I say got caught because I don't think for one second that other teams weren't doing this and that there were an awful lot of head coaches who were suddenly looking over their shoulder and waiting for the call from Goodell.

Why do I say it was blown out of proportion? Simple, because in last week's game against the Ravens, the New York Jets were giving illegal simulated snap counts. It's breaking the rules and fair play same as Belichick was. Where's the outrage? There is none, because the Jets aren't a worthy target. It's much more fun to go after the head coach who is very anti-media. And due to the media blowing this up, you have people getting mutilated facts and opinions and assuming it's all true.

Also, you'd think that the Patriots dismantling of the San Diego Chargers would have quieted this, but a lot of the sports writers still like to stick the cheater tag on the Patriots, who were undoubtedly the most scrutinized team on Sunday, so that win was nothing but a legitimate pounding. Also, I've seen the tape. If anyone could figure out what was going on from that, then they earned whatever advantage they got. Bunch of mumbo-jumbo to me.

Really, in the grand scheme of things, being outraged by this is silly. It was a video. Now, if you wanted to talk about cheaters and brought up Rodney Harrison (among many, many others, but since it's the cool thing to be anti-Patriot right now :P ) I'd fully agree, because that's just plain illegal. I view people who use illegal performance enhancing drugs as much worse offenders of the spirit of fair play than a video.
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It won't hurt them. They may lose a first round pic, but they have so much explosive potential that they could still theoretically win back to back Super bowls without it. I'm sure belichick has done it for quite a while. I'm sure it helped him get a several million dollar contract and 3 Super bowl rings for a team that had been a bottom feeder. The first round draft pick (since, in that division, they will make the playoffs) will likely be a much less valuable one than it could be, and if it were a valuable one, they wouldn't lose it.

For Belichick's fine, it's stiff, but he makes much more. The Patriots aren't in bad shape after it either.

Either way, this is the league wanting to sound tough, but not do anything to actually hurt the team.

ps: And just remember, if this were any other team, Sailor Sexy would be saying to crucify them ;)
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Geddoe

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You know, I was kind of wondering where the outrage for the Jets were myself - that's a broken rule and it should be just as investgated as the whole New England mess. Sexy's right - if you're going to investigate one, you may as well investigate them all.
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Parallax

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It seems to me that a large part of the NFL's immediate and well-publicized reaction is an obvious effort to try and save some of the credibility of their sport. Let's face it folks; now is not a good time to having scandal in pro sports. We've got problems in every professional sport being played!

Baseball is having chronic problems with corked bats, performance enhancers, etc.

Football is full of criminals. Seriously...how many NFL players have been arrested since the start of last year?

Basketball has criminal referees calling games for the mafia.

I'm sure there's stuff in any other professional sport too, but those are the well-publicized cases that I can think of. So it seems to me that the new commissioner of the NFL might have a vested interest in responding quickly and immediately to any issues that the NFL actually is able to respond punitively too. This is why it's probable that Michael Vick won't be returning to play football, no matter his sentence, and why the Patriots got slammed in a well-publicized frenzy of media attention.

Just my opinion, but I don't think that the NFL wants to appear soft on anyone who's breaking the rules.
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Calvin

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To me, there is a difference between just being a bad apple that gets himself into trouble, and cheating the game. When players get arrested, fans my bitch and gripe, but when someone is caught cheating to gain a competitive advantage, it brings into question the purity of the competition, and is ultimately a much more serious threat to the NFL than Pacman Jones getting arrested every will be.

I think the NFL must take a hardline against cheating. I think the punishment issued was fair enough, but I also would have liked to see the Jets game forfeited.
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Tullaryx

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The game shouldn't be forfeited. They can replay it again. Though I'm going to safely assume that the outscome will still be Patriots winning and probably with a larger margin than the first game.
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Football is full of criminals. Seriously...how many NFL players have been arrested since the start of last year?


There are roughly 1,800 NFL players in the league and a handful of them have got into trouble recently. It works out to be about .1% of the population that has actually been arrested. It's not really a big deal and I wouldn't even care if the media could remain focused on what matters instead of the drama.

I think the punishment handed down to the Pats was definitely severe enough. A first round draft pick is unprecedented and that will likely be what is enforced.

Let's not act like New England is the only team doing this. The reason they don't forfeit the game is because the NFL has reason to believe that a large portion of the teams are participating in something like this. They sent out a memo on it afterall to all 32 teams.

Espionage is a part of the game as well. It's legal to steal the signs a coordinator is sending in to his defense, it's just not legal to record them. It's just like an offensive lineman on every down. I'm sure you guys are aware that holding occurs on every offensive play. If you get caught you're penalized, but basically every lineman is out there going beyond the rules and doing whatever he can get away with to get ahead of his opponent.

Why would you think it's any different on the sidelines than what it is on the field? This doesn't expose a competitive advantage, it exposes how deep the competition goes. It's part of the game. You do whatever you can, even breaking the rules, to win and when you get caught you get punished severely.
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Parallax

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sierra Mikain wrote:


There are roughly 1,800 NFL players in the league and a handful of them have got into trouble recently. It works out to be about .1% of the population that has actually been arrested. It's not really a big deal and I wouldn't even care if the media could remain focused on what matters instead of the drama.


You're absolutely right, it's a tiny fraction.

But the media doesn't and quite frankly won't ever focus on what's important to the game over the drama. That's how the media works, and they make an awful lot of bad publicity for pro sports by seriously playing up incidents like X football player being arrested...and it was much worse in the case of Michael Vick. I absolutely agree that Vick should be in prison, but there's probably someone busted for a similar offense every day, and he's the first one I've heard about in a long time.

Pretty obscene, but that's how it goes.

I was clearly exaggerating about football being 'full' of criminals. However, it's still a highly publicized issue that the NFL has to deal with, which sucks, because as you say it has nothing to do with the game.
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No worries. It just sounded like you were putting a media spin on the facts. The only reason I'm really for the NFL severely punishing said criminals is so I don't have to hear about it on the pregame shows. That seriously irks me.

:off topic: (off topic over) :off topic:
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

All the jerkoff NFL players or whoever and those that hates on the Patriots can suck it, cheating is bad but this is just using a little technology in today's world doing a common practice to gain an edge which every team in every sport does one way or another.

The calling of plays should be secret and there is a honor in not stealing that, so if someone was taking the direct words from the coaches or in huddles to match it up with the plays then it would be wrong. But I hardly see anything wrong with keeping track of defensive signals when the coordinators are screaming them out and very openly signaling, especially when the NFL voted down using defensive headsets.

I see the haters say: "it's just wrong and you just can't tape it..." okay then is it better if we hired 20 mentally skilled football people instead of the one camera guy to analyze the coordinator's every move from now on? I bet they can do the same job just as good with their heads, if not I'm sure Bob Kraft would be happy to hire more people to get the job done, because we'll do anything short of illegal in the real world to win and can care less about whatever else that happens.

It sucks that the pats had to give up a first pick for this, when we were just doing what everyone else already does. Though with the way the pats draft, we'd get way more out of a 2nd and a 3rd instead of one low first rounder anyways, so thanks for giving us a better option.

Oh by the way, we have the niner's first rounder which would be much higher than our own anyways...[ED NOTE: Post edited for content]
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
cheating is bad but this is just using a little technology in today's world doing a common practice to gain an edge which every team in every sport does one way or another.



If you break the rules, you don't have a leg to stand on. If a cop pulls you over for speeding do you argue that all people are speeding all the time? If you get caught doing something illegal, you're going to get the punishment.

Quote:

I see the haters say: "it's just wrong and you just can't tape it..." okay then is it better if we hired 20 mentally skilled football people instead of the one camera guy to analyze the coordinator's every move from now on? I bet they can do the same job just as good with their heads, if not I'm sure Bob Kraft would be happy to hire more people to get the job done, because we'll do anything short of illegal in the real world to win and can care less about whatever else that happens.


Where are you going with this? That because they can do just as good of a job without breaking the rules that it shouldn't matter that they did break the rules? Then why did they break the rules?

What the pats did was worse than this though. A few weeks ago, as I said, a memo went out to all the teams that said not to do this and then the Patriots go and do it in plain view. You want to say they're not evil for what they've done, well then they sure are stupid.

Belichek said he misinterpreted the rules, so let me quote from the memo for you:

Memo, Dated: September 6th, 2007 wrote:
"Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."


this memo was made to re-emphasize the rules which are obviously vague when they say (quoting again)

Long-standing rule wrote:
"no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game."

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

That because they can do just as good of a job without breaking the rules that it shouldn't matter that they did break the rules? Then why did they break the rules?

If the pats are the only team even trying to keep track of defensive signals and it's helping them win, then all other teams are run by idiots for not doing it. There are no well kept secrets when it comes to doing things that help a team win like this, so either the other teams' camera guys haven't been caught or there are plenty of people who can do the job without video recording, because every team that thinks the process will help them would be doing it. Just because the recording process is against written rules, it's still stupid of the NFL for not going to defensive headsets if they wanted the play calling process to work properly.

Most people that's really bitching about this are either old farts that just can't get their head around this magical "camera" tool when the process of signal stealing is older than they are, or it's the fans and players of teams that got their ass kicked by the pats... Like I said, I hope those people feel that great joy of when we beat their team's ass in the post season, and still pick ahead of them in first round of the draft next year to get the player their team wanted.
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Geddoe

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

jjrrs wrote:

If the pats are the only team even trying to keep track of defensive signals and it's helping them win, then all other teams are run by idiots for not doing it. There are no well kept secrets when it comes to doing things that help a team win like this, so either the other teams' camera guys haven't been caught or there are plenty of people who can do the job without video recording, because every team that thinks the process will help them would be doing it. Just because the recording process is against written rules, it's still stupid of the NFL for not going to defensive headsets if they wanted the play calling process to work properly.

Most people that's really bitching about this are either old farts that just can't get their head around this magical "camera" tool when the process of signal stealing is older than they are, or it's the fans and players of teams that got their ass kicked by the pats... Like I said, I hope those people feel that great joy of when we beat their team's ass in the post season, and still pick ahead of them in first round of the draft next year to get the player their team wanted.


Interesting. So if the Pats have been doing it all along, then they should have gone to the Super Bowl last year. Oh wait. They didn't. That was Indianapolis last year, and they didn't get busted for cheating. Let's check the year before...oh wait! Not that year either - that was Pittsburgh. I guess the stress of not making the Super Bowl two out of the last three years would [drive] someone to intentionally break the rules as set out in a league-wide memo? What makes the Patriots so big and bad that they would deliberately break the rules and think that they would be exempt from any sort of punishment?

Wow, New England - what special snowflakes they are.
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Parallax

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This argument is already degenerating, and threatening to do so further. Go ahead and continue discussing; I'm not big on being the police. However, if a problem arises, I will lock the thread, delete the involved posts, warn the involved parties, and so on, and so forth.

Friendly warning.
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