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sybillious

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sai, in reference to mountain dew drinking:
Quote:

Let me know if you find any jobs that will pay me a good wage for that.


let's not be asinine; you knew what i was refering to, real jobs, not some made up crap.

it's not about unfairness, it's about employers expecting more from prospectives, not less. realistically, who would you want, joe blow with some experience or someone with an education, who shows that they had the frame of mind and foresight to prepare for a market that demands more out of those entering?

i know what my choice would be...and yes, a penny-i expect more, and pay by what i get. :|
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Arcana

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sai wrote:
I'm also anti-capitalist, but I'm not COMPLETELY Communist in the Stalin sense. I believe that Marx had the right idea, though... You see this at work in primitive societies, and I think that if we ever enlighten ourselves to the degree in which Marx envisioned, we could have a non-monetary modern economy.


Sai wrote:
and well, basically the almighty dollar is the only thing motivating me to go to work.


A little off-topic, but really just too impossible to resist.

:)
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

those two statements in arcana's post by sai are contradictory; how can you not be capitalist yet be motivated by earning the almighty dollar? that's capitalism-doing x for the almighty dollar, selling something, be it a product, service or self.
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Milan Fiori

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Because you can have your beliefs but you still need to do what you need to do to get by. He's a socialist? (I think that's right term for what he is) Living in a capatlist world!
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Milan Fiori is right.

There's no point in isolating yourself from the world because you percieve it has problems. You just make do and try and make whatever small changes you can to your own personal corner of the world.
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Sai Fujiwara

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

YAY! Thanks to Milan Fiori & John Layfield for a dose of common sense! Of course I think the system sucks, but that's life. I think Arcana here was trying to make a joke of that, so I'm not really offended at anything anyone else said. Just thought I'd reinforce what they said by confirming that.

(Whining about a system doesn't help. You just have to make the best of it.)

And really, sybillious... I think you knew I was joking there about the Mountain Dew job, no need to get frusterated, right? Sorry, if you thought I was being derragatory in any way, because I didn't really mean to do that. I just like to add a certain... Um, flavor to my posting here... I hope you didn't find it to be too sour. :P

I will also appologize for not posting anything worth more than a penny. I try my best here, but I am far from perfect. Perhaps your criticism is the motivation I need! Thanks, Syb! :mrgreen:

I'll reiterate what I said previously... I cannot help but feel as if you believe my IQ is less than 12 after reading your posts... Ok, now... *Cowers away from the almighty Grasslander...*

This brings me up to Black Pesmerga... DANG IT! You suck! You did not bring up anything I can really argue... I guess all I can do is nod at most of your post, as I did pretty much agree with just about all you said...

Oh yes, I can also wish good turkey fortunes upon you as well! MAY YOU CONTINUE TO EAT LOTS OF TURKEY, BLACK PESMERGA!


SARSadmin wrote:
I'm an odd case in that I am an engineer for Honda, while I have no engineering degree. I have a degree in theology. So how in the heck did I become an engineer? My linguistic skill is the core reason (pragmatically speaking) why General Motors hired me 5 years ago (before I quit). What their human resources told me was "as long as you have a college degree, that's fine. We will teach you what you need to know (in terms of engineering). The job description of my position back then listed "BS in engineering required." Thus, job requirements are never absolute (as Arcana mentions above), but having a college degree often is an absoloute.


DANGIT! Now, that makes me really feel like an idiot... No, I'm not trying to belittle what you said, it just is kinda' suprising to me. I don't think I'd want to be an engineer (personally), but I think that's rather cool that they gave you a shot at it, just because you had a degree. You get my thumbs up for today, SARSadmin! Who knew that they'd hire a theology major to be an engineer... Oh well. I was always under the impression that it was neccessary to get a bachelors of science for your degree to be worth anything besides teaching. I guess that proves my thoughts wrong.

Encouraging, to say the least... Who knows, maybe if I get really bored, I can always go to Law School, and be like Ben Stein. :mrgreen:
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Noot

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's not really fair to throw words around like "disciplined", "focused", or "hard-working" when it comes to those who graduate college. Those are just labels. They mean nothing. Whenever you explain something with a label, you get nowhere. The reality is, there is virtually no difference between those who attend college and those who attend prison. We just don't understand all the reinforcers in our environment that allow us to make the right decision.

Not to put words into Bishop Sai's mouth (from well over a month ago no less, hehe) but what he is trying to say is that a college degree should not be the primary factor that determines whether someone gets a job because it does not necessarily show how "intelligent", "hard-working", etc one person is over another. Maybe the person with the degree was being reinforced to graduate just so he could attain a job, then after that he levels off and fails to improve in life? *shrug* I'm sure that's a very likely occurence.

I think when it comes to specialized jobs that require a very specific understanding of the intricacies of the subject, then DEFINITELY any prior knowledge of that field should give someone a leg up over the competition.

But when we're talking about the majority of regular jobs people have, ones where anyone who receives on-the-job training has a decent chance to do well, we should not simply pass over those who merely have a high school education for someone with a bachelor's degree in *insert subject here*. Really, I would probably LEAN towards the high school educated person because chances are they're living paycheck to paycheck and they'll make damn sure they do a good job in order to keep their heat on. (Sure, that's a generalization, and I try to stay cautious when it comes to those.)

Employers should be looking for all sorts of characteristics and do thorough background checks, and while a college degree should be a factor in the decision-making process, to make it the primary factor could be a big mistake. Especially if anyone can do the job, and the person without the degree will be likely receiving less pay than the one with the degree, the cheaper option will become more attractive to the company.

(Okay, now that I said that, I'd like to let everyone know that on tomorrow night's episode of Penn & Teller (5/30, Showtime), their topic will be about college. Just letting you all know because they could bring up some interesting points worth discussing here.)
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kuwaizair

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sybillious wrote:


blaming the school itself is faulty logic; it's the student that's resposible for attending, taking notes, listening to the instructor, completing assignments and taking tests-saying that it's an extension of high school because of personal difficulties is also faulty.
.


i know what you really mean, but somtimes the school itsself is at fault.


yeh like its my responislbity the teacher knows what they are doing. in Math one professor was messing up, writing the wrong things on the board. accidenlty using the wrong numbers. Giving -me- a test back that didn't belong to me, "because it didn't have a name on it", while on the back there are things written that pretained to our "reserch paper" when I dind't chose to do the "reserch paper" (I chose a phone survay) Oh and I went to take a test somwhere and they automatyly presumed I was somoe else and gave me the wrong text. (plus teachers speek to fast, I can't deal with a math lecture people, so recording the teacher isn't going to be much help unless I use a vidio camera to record the numbers on the board.)

OH and its my responislbity to make sure the print-presses have all 3 blankets, that the class room has sink. that the darkroom is built right. (when you turn on the fans light comes in)

sure I should be a good student, the best I can, but when you need to use certain programs in class, and they don't have it. how can I learn?

I blame the school for hinderng things. Sometimes no one reallly knows what the're doing. plus for somone like me with learning disiblities and, having bad experance that may make me not want to "go get 'em" its harder.

I'm alost done with my AFA degree, I could of graudated and owned the place 6 credits. I wss going for a graphic art one but many things made me change my mind, all the math, what a graphic 'artist' may do (ever have a magizeen?) there was a lot to soak in. i couldn't handle it. I forget all my web stuff, I barly understood flash (still passed) and Typography was compelte tourtore. (X hight? blek) So, because "i draw" I went to fne art. I have 79 credits, AFA reuires 66.

nowadays I think to get a reasonable job you need "papers", then again some people tell you wonderfull stories of people who struck it rich dispite the fact they droped out of Middle School. WOW, why do I have to go to school? Too bad I didn't have such magical inate talent. Then agan people also tell me "you just need to be good". Maybe If its art. maybe i could be so good and self taught I can be hired by anyone who needs an illustator, even if I never went to any school at all. what matters is if you are good. but then...other jobs you need school. me? I don't need it. I don't need to know propebltiy (though an essy at Suikosource gave me bad flashbacks) I didn't learn how to live on my own. I barly got anything from my art classes. But If I have my paper then It shows "i am good". Or Its useless and was a waste of money. al you need is amazing skill. I guess you can be a rockstar even wihout going to music college. because you good.
I'd like to -maybe- play wiht writing, but my vocabulary skills and spelling sklills are worse than a common 12 year olds. plus I am afraid of it. I'd like to have that pull to write, so maybe I can make a story for a game. But i don't see it happening. I don't even thik I could illustrate. not that I'd need a collge education to do that. I just need "good art".

papers mean nothing. these educatons are only good if you go into where they matter, like medican or mathimatics or science. a Phd in writing just makes you look like a word-jerk, and you can throw it around and make yourslef look "like doctor", just because your degree is in "writing".
all you need to do is play with the dictonary a lot. and write.

am I wrong? I mean I get to many mixed messages with the art.
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Another thing about college that I need to mention is that people need to choose colleges that fit them. Some colleges simply are not for you, while others may be better for you. For example, one of my ex-girlfriends in college had absolutely terrible grades when she was at my college; she was failing classes left and right, and was also losing interest in learning because the curriculum simply didn't fit her style.

She transferred to another college, which was pretty much a perfect fit. She ended up getting Masters degree from Loyola (a very good school).

Personally, I would not have done very well in a huge school. I need to be able to know my professors and establish some connection with them. Othwerise, I would have no interest in learning from them. I'm the type of person who can learn better if I can respect the teacher.

Everyone has a different style, and a perfect fit with your school would be very important. The problem is that it's pretty hard to know if a school fits you until you go there. You may think that a smaller school would be better for you, but in reality a big school may be better.
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Starslasher

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ok, like, holy crud. How did i miss this topic?

Anyways, I'm currently a 2nd/3rd year student on University. To try to give a brief explanation on how i'm taking 2nd year and 3rd year classes, i took Electrical Eng. for the first year. But i failed miserably. But i did pass some classes, like Maths and Computer Eng. I switched to Mechanical, and got some examptions from the 1st year Maths and stuff. Now, i'm parying that i finish my finals with a pass, why should i care if i get a distinction (i.e.75+ %) when i can pass with just 50.

I wanted to go to university, but it was more because my parents pressured my into it, poking me in the back to go forward. When i failed the first year of Electrical Eng., i lashed out at the parents for putting pressure on me. But it was my fault for being so lax and goofing off. But changing to Mechanical at 2004 was an immensly great experience, since i was able to relate to it much better than the previous, and they developed a Common First Year System, which wsa a whole lot more organized and easier to follow. Plus, i had a lot more friends to fall on, which would have to be a great advantage to making it in college.

The reason for going to college was pretty much to increase my chances at getting a better job. Plus, it will give you more respect than people who went straight into the work force after high school, unfortunate as that is. College is part of a long term plan to a successful career.

I had some classmates who had finished TAFE/college, and were working jobs that paid AUS$61,000 per year, which would be about over US$40,000 or so. So he had a pretty good life, but he is going for a Bachelors now, since it will give him a better standing and stuff.

However, it would still take more than just a college degree to get a job. A friend of mine told me of his friend to tried to apply for a vacancy in a company. My friend told me that these things are needed when applying: Contacts (with the company, to give in a good word and so forth), The communication skills and some luck. His friend had applied for the position 5 times before he was accepted. So it takes some persistance as well.

I was thinking of mentioning "The Apprentice" 's theme on booksmarts vs. streetsmarts they did this year. It is relevant, but it didn't matter in the end. :roll:

I probably would have done good going straight to work after high school. It would probably have saved me a lot of money, which is a major concern for me nowadays. Escpecially since there was an increase in Uni fees, which sparked outrage, some time ago.

Related to that, unis in Australia seem to be going dowhill. While none of them are up to par with the Ivy League, or Oxford or such, they're still good institutions of higher education that help the students compete in the outside world. But now, not only is there a fee increase, but apparently the places for the course goes to the highest "bidder", or those who are more financially stable and such. Plus, to increase the number of places, the cut off mark has lowered substantially. In one uni, for example, the cut off mark to go into Games Technology dropped from 80 or so last year, down to 68! It seems like a good thing, but there is a downside to it, which i might mention later, because i can't think of one right now.
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Benit149

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't have an overall positive opinion of college. I've spent two years at St. Clair in Windsor, Ontario, and my books haven't made me as smart a person as my actions. Yes, I've made educational mistakes, but at my workplaces, I've improved vastly with working in a mature, work-oriented setting. You don't get that in school. That's why I've grown tired of school and want to get out, but I want to at least get a certificate in the Chef Training program, if not some fancy diploma or degree or whatever.

Yet, even if I get the certificate, I doubt it'll help me find a better paying job in the future. Employers SAY they don't need people with experience, but when it comes down to it, they're flat out BS-ing with you. They want experience and education, but I'm trying to work more on the experience part than the education. In a common restaurant, who cares how well you cut the beef? It's how fast you can cut it that counts to keep up with this fast-paced world, and you don't learn that in school.

Yet on the same token, I'm going back to St. Clair in winter 2006 to complete the two classes I failed to get the certificate. Like my friend said, I went 90% of the way, and there's no point in not going the other 10%, even if it's done later, rather than sooner. Plus I plan on paying for it myself so I have an even stronger initiative to work harder this time around. Once I get the certificate, I'm done. That's my pretty little paper to present to the employer.
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Arcana

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

kuwaizair wrote:
papers mean nothing. these educatons are only good if you go into where they matter, like medican or mathimatics or science.


Then, obviously, the papers DO mean something - they mean something for those who are in medicine, mathematics, or science. And there are a fair number of those people.

Quote:
a Phd in writing just makes you look like a word-jerk, and you can throw it around and make yourslef look "like doctor", just because your degree is in "writing".
all you need to do is play with the dictonary a lot. and write.


Fortunately, there's no such thing as a Ph.D. in writing. :) You can get a Ph.D. in English literature, or similar, but being an expert on gender issues in 4th Century Greek writings is definitely not something you can just acquire while playing with your dictionary and writing.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I personally think that college is not worth the time, money and effort. I mean whats the point, you got about a $50,000 liability that you gotta pay off plus extras. You may get a cirtificate at the end of it and it may look good in your resume, but you don't really have the practical knowledge of your working industry. At the end of the day the employer will decide wether you get into the job or not by saying ''what will you offer to the employer'' rather than looking at all the college degrees you may have. In my opinion i would just go to those institutions which give you practical knowledge of the industry enabling you to survive work on the first day rather than theory, essays, tests and exams.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Assassin01 wrote:
At the end of the day the employer will decide wether you get into the job or not by saying ''what will you offer to the employer'' rather than looking at all the college degrees you may have. In my opinion i would just go to those institutions which give you practical knowledge of the industry enabling you to survive work on the first day rather than theory, essays, tests and exams.


True, but at the beginning of the day they'll throw out most of the resumes that don't have a degree :p . It takes much more to get that resume looked at if you don't have a degree, and while a degree doesn't necessarily ensure you have a job, not having one will limit the opportunities significantly. It may be a piece of paper, but there are few pieces of paper as important as a college degree.

The fact is studies have shown that higher education is one of the most important investments a person can make, and historically still, even with rising tuition rates, has the highest return on average of any investment. College graduates on average make twice as much as those with just high school diplomas. Over the course of a lifetime, the average holder of a high school diploma will make $1.2 million, while those with college degrees will, on average, make $2.1. As long as that's still true, it's worth the investment. We don't have nearly as many factory jobs as we used to, and employers just expect you to have one, even if it's not relevant to the job you are applying for. Of course, there are jobs you can get by without one and we've seen people who are successful who don't have degrees, but they are the exceptions.

And as for the not having experience, many colleges give opportunities for people to get that experience while in school. In my school, in many degrees, they pretty much stuff the importance of having experience down your throat. They also bring in people from the professional world to the school for various reasons to allow students to begin building connections, along with the connections they make with other students who are going to be working which is arguably far more important than either experience or a degree.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

As far as the college thing goes, an employer really does prefer that you've completed college. I know in a lot of the higher up positions in UPS, even, they really want you to have that kind of experience just to show that you were dedicated enough to go and complete that.

My dad also reads resumes all day, and it's pretty much the same thing.

As I've been looking into working with the local school system in the offices, they want at least two years worth of college credits (60 credit hours) in order to work in their offices.

My boyfriend is having a hard time trying to find a decent job because he's not finished college. He's amazing with computers, but everybody wants a computer science or electrical engineering degree out of him before they'll even consider hiring him... so guess where he is right now. XD
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