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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sai wrote:
Um, well I see you didn't understand what I was trying to say. I would give the position to someone who had EXPERIENCE in the position.

Um, you're the one who didn't understand what I was trying to say. Read what I quoted from you before, and realize that what you quoted from me was the response to that particular quote only. Not for the whole opinion where you considered experience to be irreplacable.

I'll explain it once again. I realize that a degree isn't always necessary, I've even said it at the very beginning of my post. So let's move on to the re-explanation. I compare Joe Blow with a college graduate to show that degree could be important when it's used as a comparison between people with no experience.

When you compare someone uneducated with experience to someone with education but no experience, then you've come down to a different case depending on company's policy. I personally would still hire the one with education because I know that they were trained by competent assessors, and the degree showed that they were competent in that area. So if I train them properly, then they'd come out very competent.

On the other hand, experience could be deceiving because for one, you can't really know for sure whether the reviews were true or not (and you simply couldn't spend too much time on checking applicants' background in detail). Then the next one is that even if the experienced person really performed well, he could've done it wrong without realizing it because the previous company that he worked in has different standard compared to your company. Then it'd be even harder for you to get the point across to him because he'd believe in his "experience of performing well all those years" rather than doing it "the right way". Having experience could make people too arrogant because they think they know it all just because they've done it before.

Going to college is, as SARSadmin said on his first post, meant to be for learning process. You learn about something, then you implement it in real-life. Process is important, and I'm having the impression that you only care about results while not caring about process at all.

Sai wrote:
Nobody is going to pay me for my history knowledge! So, yeah. Life isn't fair, I know.

Well you could be a history teacher, and get paid for your history knowledge. It's up to how you use your knowledge. The knowledge isn't useless. It's useless because you don't want to put it into good use.

Sai wrote:
It is very possible for someone to be talented at a position, but not be booksmart at all.

I agree, but being "booksmart" could be the difference between your business being shut down by the government or not. Say you can cook as good as I am, but since you're not educated properly, you don't know how to do stock-rotation, food handling, etc. Your food tastes as good as mine, but your food is not hygiene because you put your finger to taste your food while cooking. Then your restaurant would be closed. Hence, education is still important no matter how you see it.

Sai wrote:
College isn't for everyone, and should not be FORCED upon us, in America.

I think it's quite a fact already that college isn't forced upon you guys considering that there are LOTS of people who don't attend college and earning money (or LOTS of money *cough*LeBronJamesKobeBryantKevinGarnett*cough*).

Sai wrote:
History won't pay the bills, management will.

So you're saying that history teachers or historians in general can't pay their bills? I find that to be very generalizing inaccurately.

Sai wrote:
However, the same knowledge that I'm interested in, doesn't help me earn a wage.

Actually you should have enough money to live even if you become a history teacher. It's just that you want more money, and that's why you choose something that you don't like (management). You'll just have to live with the choices you make.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I really really enjoyed my time in College.
It took me a total of seven, yes 7 years to get my Bachelor of Science Degree in Architectural Technology and it was worth every second of it. To break it down i spent a total of four years in college and the other 3 years working so i could afford to put myself through college.
The first two years were easy enough and i graduated with my Certificate.
Then after working for a year i went back to college and graduated with my Diploma.
And finally after working again for another year i went back to college and in June 2004 i graduated with my Bachelor of Science Degree in Architectural Technology.
I will never forget my time in college, oh all those beer fuel filled parties and nights out, super!
Well now i am working fulltime, but i hope to go back for my Masters in a few years time after i do a bit of travelling around.
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Sai Fujiwara

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thanks for tearing my posts apart like a turkey on Thanksgiving, Black Pesmerga. :P

Ok, ok, so maybe I skimmed through what you initially wrote a little too much. Sorry about that. I see you're really into this slow process, but... That doesn't bode too well for me. Perhaps this is because I'm rather impatient, and I'm a very quick study when it comes to most things. I don't mind going through the learning process, and I really enjoy hands on stuff. I do NOT enjoy doing homework, or writing reports, though. I suppose I'd have the most fun at some trade school, learning to build PCs by hand, or fix them, or something like that... Maybe that's what I should be doing, I don't really know. Let me say this much, I know that it's important to learn, and I like to LEARN... I just don't like to do coursework. I'm lazy, so I guess that's my own problem.

Black Pesmerga wrote:
When you compare someone uneducated with experience to someone with education but no experience, then you've come down to a different case depending on company's policy. I personally would still hire the one with education because I know that they were trained by competent assessors, and the degree showed that they were competent in that area. So if I train them properly, then they'd come out very competent.


Not I... lol It's ok, like I said, we don't need to really agree.

I will point out that I think you're making an assumption there about the educated person coming out competent after training. A degree isn't always a failsafe way of telling whether or not someone will be good. It can help, I won't deny, but it isn't perfect. (Nothing is.) It's an opinion, as I don't have any emperical data to back me up, but I think it's safe to assume that you're not going to get a 100% success rate for people who have degrees.

I noticed how you kept mentioning that history teachers make money. I know that, but my history professor says that they aren't really in high demand, and (comared with other faculty) they don't make a whole lot of money. Not much more than a High School teacher, which requires a secondary education major (and a teaching certificate). Even though the demand thing may or may not be accurate, I can't really agrue your point. They do make decent money.

However, this doesn't really apply to me. I'll tell you why.

I do not want to be a teacher. In fact... I should NOT be a teacher. I'm annoyed easily, I have a bad temper, and I'm very impatient. Sure I may not come off this way, but if you rub me the wrong way in person, you are bound to see my negative side. I don't think these are very good traits for a teacher. Not only that, even with my degree, I'm sure I wouldn't be very good at my job. I also suck really bad at public speaking.

The only thing really left to slam you on (and yes, I do think a "slamming" is appropriate here...) is what you said in the following line:

Black Pesmerga wrote:
I think it's quite a fact already that college isn't forced upon you guys considering that there are LOTS of people who don't attend college and earning money (or LOTS of money *cough*LeBronJamesKobeBryantKevinGarnett*cough*).


Oh yeah, and we all know that every person is born with the athletic ability to play professional basketball right out of high school. Give me a break. I know there are exceptions to the rule. In the old days, you could get by and provide nicely without a college education. Now, you either need one, or you must be able to play basketball really good to make good money. With that out of the way, I do know that there are OTHER exceptions to this rule, but they're just that... Exceptions. And while I'll agree with you on that, I think the using ALL professional athletes was a poor way to make that point.

(I agree with your point, just not how you said it :P )

Two more cents. I'm sure you'll throw them right back at me, Black Pesmerga. :mrgreen:
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sai wrote:
I will point out that I think you're making an assumption there about the educated person coming out competent after training.

Well in the end, it comes down to the person itself. I assume that the educated person coming out competent after training providing that the educated person was really educated (as in fully understanding what was taught in college rather than just getting a "pass" because he copied friends' assignments and exams). So yeah, if you're really learning while you're in college (like you're supposed to, which is why you should go to college in the first place), then you should come out competent after training because you're well equipped.

Sai wrote:
but I think it's safe to assume that you're not going to get a 100% success rate for people who have degrees.

I agree with this, but it's not the problem of the existance of the college itself, it's the problem of the students. College was meant to be for learning process of the students. If the students failed or just barely passed, then obviously they're not as competent as those who passed with flying colors.

Sai wrote:
However, this doesn't really apply to me. I'll tell you why.

I do not want to be a teacher. In fact... I should NOT be a teacher. I'm annoyed easily, I have a bad temper, and I'm very impatient. Sure I may not come off this way, but if you rub me the wrong way in person, you are bound to see my negative side. I don't think these are very good traits for a teacher. Not only that, even with my degree, I'm sure I wouldn't be very good at my job. I also suck really bad at public speaking.

There you go. The problem is you, yourself, not the history or whatever. So don't make it sound as if college is useless just because you don't want to be a history teacher. The opportunity is there, you're the one who doesn't want to (or cannot) take it.

Sai wrote:
I think the using ALL professional athletes was a poor way to make that point.

Notice that I used them as examples of those who make LOTS of money, not just "good" money, mind you. That's why I used them as extreme examples. They suit the purpose of my point perfectly.

If you want to find more normal examples, Milan Fiori already mentioned it how he has many friends who have become managers without having degrees. So I don't want to repeat that.

So in the end, I agree that degrees aren't always the most important thing in the world, but in the end, it's still quite important. The way you said how college was BS and all that just sounded very belittling the role of college, and that's what I mainly disagree about. College was meant to be for something positive, whether you come out positive or negative, it depends on the students.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sai Fujiwara wrote:
I do NOT enjoy doing homework, or writing reports, though


I don't know about anyone else, but I have yet to meet someone who says "Quantum mechanics homework and a 20-page philosophy paper due Thursday? YES!!"

Out of six courses, I only like doing coursework for one of them and that's because I really enjoy the class and learning what's offered. And it's not part of my major.

Let's face it: no one makes millions of dollars per year just because he got a degree. We all want more money, but very few get it. I'll be happy with whatever I get that pays bills as long as I get to do what I'm getting my degree for.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ironically, sai, you said you chose management as your course of study? management is the most commonly chosen field for most students-this means a flood in that field, requiring anyone who wishes for a decent job to do something *anything* that will make them stand out. like it or not, this means dedicating yourself to work you don't like, plus extracirricular activities.

you don't like writing reports? you definitely chose the wrong field; business is mostly correspondence, including reports-you're definitely in for a hard time, then.

history/liberal arts degrees can apply to more than you think; a person simply has to look into different fields. not all jobs that require a degree specify what that degree has to be in-nor do they always specify where the work experience comes from.

i do know that after i left the army, the only applicants employers seriously considered for higher positions were officers-meaning, *GASP* a degree was needed. so, for someone to say that a degree is passed over in favor of job experience alone is foolish-it tells me they don't have much time out in the real world.

the majority of employers look for both in a prospective employee-they want someone who can write reports, correspondences, and give presentations on top of their job duty description. anyone thinking they will simply stick to job decribed duties is seriously fooling themselves, and will be dissapointed once they start their new job.
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Sai Fujiwara

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Black Pesmerga likes turkey. He likes it a lot.

Black Pesmerga wrote:
There you go. The problem is you, yourself, not the history or whatever. So don't make it sound as if college is useless just because you don't want to be a history teacher. The opportunity is there, you're the one who doesn't want to (or cannot) take it.


Yeah, I don't see what the point of mentioning that was. It's rather redundant, since you're just re-iterating what I said. I admitted that it was my fault that I couldn't make a good teacher, not the history in itself. Honestly, I don't see the point of you repeating that. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you're just trying to point and laugh at me...

lol I know that isn't the case, don't get defensive on me! :P *Jumps away from the Crimson Blade swung at him.*

Still not budging about the athlete thing, man. Sorry. :P

As for saying college was BS, that's not what I meant to say... Sure, what I said was belittling of college, but I think having an opposition viewpoint is ok, right? I just think that it's BS how society says that we all need degrees. This just isn't the case, and I think there should be a way for COMMON people to earn a decent wage without having some high-tech or business degree. (Without having to be a teacher...)

This kind of brings me to what sybillious was saying. Ironically, it's the liberal arts classes that interest me the most. I won't deny that. Sometimes lab work is ok, like in my intro chemistry course, because we got to tool around with acids. That was cool... lol I remember sniffing all the chemicals in High School to see what they smelled like. (NO I WAS NOT TRYING TO GET HIGH!) My chemistry teacher was a parapelegic, who had broken wrists. He was a funny, twisted man. He even had a Detroit Red Wings jersey with "Wheels" on the back... lol He's a man that I'm sure you would've loved to know, Syb. He has that same "sick sense of humor." (His own words.)

sybillious wrote:
i do know that after i left the army, the only applicants employers seriously considered for higher positions were officers-meaning, *GASP* a degree was needed. so, for someone to say that a degree is passed over in favor of job experience alone is foolish-it tells me they don't have much time out in the real world.


Um, now either I typed it wrong, or you read it wrong. It's like this, I know that people hire in favor of a degree instead of experience. I was saying that it wasn't neccessarily right for them to do that. I wouldn't always do that, if I owned a business, but I do not. I might also find that it's a bad idea to hire on experience alone... I don't know, but I do know what you're saying is correct, and I don't think I ever argued otherwise... And um... I have had real-world experience, I work 40-hours a week for a national bank, so I'm well aware that I'm not getting any decent job, unless I get my degree. It doesn't matter if I like it or not, it's just the way it is.

Am I up to a dime yet, in this thread? You can each have a nickel, and feel free to aim for each eye when you throw the ten cents back! :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sai Fujiwara wrote:
To me, it almost looks as if you believe in having this "rich man's" club that I was talking about... This would be disappointing to me, but you are entitled to believe whatever you want. (Sorry, if I'm being too presumptious...)


Is your resistance against post-secondary education based on the fact that "you don't (or shouldn't) need higher education to do well on society", or "it's much too expensive, lower the costs so everyone gets a chance at education"? Elsewhere, you did mention that it shouldn't be mandatory for people to go to school after high school, so I'm presuming that you're leaning on the first choice here. Don't worry, I don't see mandatory education here anytime soon, High school isn't even mandatory.


Black Pesmerga and Sai both mentioned that a degree isn't necessarily indication that someone will do the job right. However SARSadmin also mentioned On-the-Job training. One reason why people love degrees is because it suggests a capacity for learning. You're able to sit through lectures, read books, do research, and write results. This is priceless to an employer. Most people are perfectly satisfied with hiring someone who knows little about a job they're going to work in, as long as they have the capacity to adjust and adapt. Most high-tech postings list this ridiculous set of skills on their forms:

"Requires 3+ years of experience with developing object-oriented frameworks for web applications. C++ and Java experience a must. Experience with MySQL, Oracle, postgreSQL, and db2 required. PHP, ASP, and Perl an asset. Development is on Solaris, Windows XP, HP-UX, AIX, BSD, and Linux environments. Strong knowledge of Eclipse advantageous. UML modeling highly important. Applicant should be familiar with good software engineering principles, be a strong team leader, and be familiar with source code control including CVS and SVN."

Sorry, no one has that kinds of skill set. However, if you've shown yourself to have done some good research in a software engineering field with emphasis on web applications, and you have some amazing course projects based on Java servlets, and if you got an A+ in your Databases course, then it can be inferred that you have potential can learn the rest.

FF6Sage wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but I have yet to meet someone who says "Quantum mechanics homework and a 20-page philosophy paper due Thursday? YES!!"


You obviously don't know any graduate students. Doing quantum mechanics papers are a little more appealing when you receive a fixed salary. It's not an amazing salary by any means, but you're being PAID to go to class, do research, and help other students learn course material.


Finally, having a college/university degree lets you move around MUCH faster and much easier than not having one. You get a Bachelor's degree in History. You become a history teacher for your high school. You get laid off. There's an excess of history teachers and no one wants to hire you. What do you do? Well, you have a few options here. You can realign your career and sign up with the Government, doing research about the influence of classical thought on modern society. You can join up with a museum that identifies artifacts. If you're hardcore, you can go back and get your Ph.D, do research, and become a professor.

You've been a cook for 10 years (for the sake of argument let's assume you don't have Chef's Papers). You get laid off. There are no jobs in kitchens. What are you going to do? I highly doubt that you'd make a good bartender or waitress. At this point, a lot of people who didn't get a degree before actually go back and get one.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Arcana wrote:
FF6Sage wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but I have yet to meet someone who says "Quantum mechanics homework and a 20-page philosophy paper due Thursday? YES!!"


You obviously don't know any graduate students. Doing quantum mechanics papers are a little more appealing when you receive a fixed salary. It's not an amazing salary by any means, but you're being PAID to go to class, do research, and help other students learn course material.


Actually, I know about half a dozen really well and have had some contact with about another half-dozen lab TAs. None of them are excited about it. They still hate it, but they have said that getting paid is an incentive. However, getting paid doesn't mean you enjoy it, it just means you're more likely to do it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bah. No spirit. Really, now. :)

There's no other job on earth where you can get paid $25K a year to do 6 hours of work a week, studying when you want to, how you want to, and taking frequent breaks. By the way, this studying is usually stuff that you've always wanted to look up.

Then again, grad school in the US is a much different beast than outside it. They drive students much harder in the US and view them as cheap labour.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Arcana"]
Sai Fujiwara wrote:
You've been a cook for 10 years (for the sake of argument let's assume you don't have Chef's Papers). You get laid off. There are no jobs in kitchens. What are you going to do? I highly doubt that you'd make a good bartender or waitress. At this point, a lot of people who didn't get a degree before actually go back and get one.

Go open your own restaurant :?:
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sai:
Quote:

Yeah, that's why I'm in college. Like I said, learning interesting book-knowledge is cool, and I mostly just hate the coursework, because it requires me to work while I want to goof off. *laugh* However, the same knowledge that I'm interested in, doesn't help me earn a wage. That's why my degree is management. History won't pay the bills, management will. This sucks, but it's an unfortunate thing that society has done to us, hence it's easy for me to make up all these "rich man's club" theories. Skyrocketing tuition doesn't help, either...

so, what you're saying is that because you're afraid to take a risk and find a job that would let you do what you really want, you'll take the safe alternative *albeit one you dislike* simply due to pay? you're overlooking a great deal; money is nothing, if you hate your work-stress, the complications from said stress, dissatisfaction with your life overall. hardly a good trade off; a degree isn't merely a tool, it's also a stepping stone-if you have the drive and the will to look, you'll find a job in that field. people do that all the time, without the undesirable trade off.

Quote:

Um, now either I typed it wrong, or you read it wrong. It's like this, I know that people hire in favor of a degree instead of experience. I was saying that it wasn't neccessarily right for them to do that. I wouldn't always do that, if I owned a business, but I do not. I might also find that it's a bad idea to hire on experience alone... I don't know, but I do know what you're saying is correct, and I don't think I ever argued otherwise... And um... I have had real-world experience, I work 40-hours a week for a national bank, so I'm well aware that I'm not getting any decent job, unless I get my degree. It doesn't matter if I like it or not, it's just the way it is.

Am I up to a dime yet, in this thread? You can each have a nickel, and feel free to aim for each eye when you throw the ten cents back


no, your statements seem contrary; on the one hand, you bash people for saying a degree is a must to make it in this world along with job experience, then you say that you know it's necessary? bashing people for knowing and accepting reality is foolish, but i think you're aware of that *on some level.*

as for the job experience, i'd prefer to see someone with some credentials and additional training *shows requisite dedication* as opposed to only ojt and experience, as do the majority of employers. simply because one can do a job doesn't mean they fully understand it, or how it applies in the greater world. we can teach monkeys to type and pick symbols, but does that mean said monkey understands exactly everything they do? of course not; just because a person works in position x for 10 years doesn't mean they have the knowledge to continue up the ladder.

you said you know what college prepares you for, and if so, then why do you seem so opposed to those with degrees getting an edge on those who don't? work experience is great, but it doesn't amount to squat if that's all your candidate can do; employers want someone with a wider field of knowledge, sometimes, experience provides it, but not always the experience the employer looks for.

no, no dimes for you, but a penny sounds about right.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I ain't bashin' people who know the truth. Not purposely, anyway. Yeah, I know you need both experience and a degree, but it shouldn't always be so, that's all... (It's just an opinion, I don't mean to state it like fact! I have no evidence!)

And you can always jump on me about being lazy. I want a job that's easy to land, and doesn't totally suck. If a job stressed me out too much, I'd just up an quit... At least I think I would. Thing is, I'm just not motivated to do a whole lot besides sit on the computer, or play video games. Hey, if I can land me a job doing that, or a job that pays me for drinking Mountain Dew, then I'd be all set!

Let me know if you find any jobs that will pay me a good wage for that.

Learning is cool, and reading a good book is actually a pretty decent release. I think I'd like to get paid for sleeping, as well... Sleeping is so serene... When you're in bed, it's like being in another reality... And sometimes you are! You can dream while you sleep.

Um, well enough about what it is that I REALLY want to do for a living. I'm not really sure where the hell I'm going with this, and that probably makes two of us, in that case... Um, anyway I should probably stop being so lazy. I think I need to find myself some motivation, and well, basically the almighty dollar is the only thing motivating me to go to work. To avoid being disowned, I wish to finish school, and because it will mean that I'll be able to land a better paying job. I've been told multiple times to go find something I actually like or am good at and stick with it, but that's probably never going to happen. I'm at the point where I'm being stubborn, and I'll take any degree just to get myself a better job. (And to free myself of one extra burden in my life.) I took some electives this semester, which were pretty interesting. However, when I have so many other things to do, and obligations, it's just not that easy to concentrate on studies and they just become tiresome and boring and monotonus. Like High School was, hence my comparison.

I guess it's me, but that's my problem. I'm sure I'd enjoy this process a lot more if I did not have to work, but I need money! It's just a fact of life, and coming from a working-class family, I'm just kinda' meh about the whole thing. I see my dad working at a factory with just a HS diploma, earning good money... Those jobs just don't exist anymore... And I suppose, I'd get depressed doing what he does all day. That's a dismal job.

I guess I am where I am. Whining about it doesn't help, but I suppose I wanted to vent a little. So I did.

Anyway, I can't help but read your posts and somehow imagine you thinking I'm some kind of total idiot... Maybe that's just me, though... Oh well, I'm sure you wouldn't be the first nor the last to think that of me... *shrugs*

(I could be mis-reading you, but I'm good at that mis-reading thing.)

Tch, a penny only...? I'll remember that... :cry:
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I guess I'll just drop another bomb for discussion.

I'm an odd case in that I am an engineer for Honda, while I have no engineering degree. I have a degree in theology. So how in the heck did I become an engineer? My linguistic skill is the core reason (pragmatically speaking) why General Motors hired me 5 years ago (before I quit). What their human resources told me was "as long as you have a college degree, that's fine. We will teach you what you need to know (in terms of engineering). The job description of my position back then listed "BS in engineering required." Thus, job requirements are never absolute (as Arcana mentions above), but having a college degree often is an absoloute.

During another interview I had, I told the interviewers that I do not have an engineering degree. What they told me is that the fact that I went through college was enough to show that I have the discipline to go through college (as a few have already mentioned before).

I'm not going to say college is a MUST, because I know some people in very high palces (within big corporations, and without nepotistic ties), who don't have college or highschool education. However, it becomes progressively difficult as you climb the corporate ladder.

Of course, if you have extremely specialized skills, you will not have much trouble getting a job regardless of your education. Translators are a good example. Japanese/English translators are often in demand, and you don't need any certificate--all you need is actual skill (which is not that hard to measure). Other skills would be various computer-related skills, such as Java programming. It's not impossible for teenagers to be Java wizzes, and once they are employable, they can probably find a job easily (especially if they have already written marketable programs). Thus, depending on what you want to do, higher education may not be necessary. However, if it is an option that is available, it won't hurt to go through with it.
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sai wrote:
Black Pesmerga likes turkey. He likes it a lot.

While turkey is not my favorite kind of meat, I did have turkey for last night's dinner. You're magical, Sai. *empties his mind ... do not read my mind, darn you, bishop* hehehe.

Sai wrote:
Yeah, I don't see what the point of mentioning that was.

I mentioned that to emphasize that the existence of the college itself isn't the issue. The problem with college is the people in that college (competent or not lecturers, competent or not students, good or bad environment, etc). But not the existence of the college itself.

Sai wrote:
Sure, what I said was belittling of college, but I think having an opposition viewpoint is ok, right?

It's okay to have a different viewpoint, but unfortunately, I have to say that you are wrong when you belittled college in general because college education is more often helpful than not.

Sai wrote:
and I think there should be a way for COMMON people to earn a decent wage without having some high-tech or business degree. (Without having to be a teacher...)

There are ways for common people to earn a decent wage without having some high-tech or business degree or being a teacher. Like I've said before, Milan Fiori's friends obviously become managers without having degrees. And the athletes example showed that too. And in the end, you can even earn decent wage by being a full-time waiting staff in a restaurant if you seriously do it. Waiting staff in a restaurant could be paid hourly, and you practically have unlimited hours to work (it's just a matter of your own determination). On top of your wage, you got tax-free tips, and tips are earned from your own personal performance. So if you wait the customers well, you'll definitely earn LOTS of money. I even dare to say that being a waiting staff could earn you more money than the manager of the restaurant.

Like I've mentioned before, the choices are there, you're the one choosing to say "no" to those choices (may it be because you can't or you don't want to).
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