| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Aurelien
20.01.08
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Post Count: 7736
Location: Jowston Hill
1567728 Potch
0 Soldiers
157 Nation Points
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:17 am Post subject: |
  |
|
| Child of The Sea God wrote: |
| Probably one of the realest things i've ever heard about college. None of that college is required to successful in life bs. |
Actually, I feel that this is a wrong case of generalization. While in some cases it's true that college education means nothing, college education isn't always useless.
| Sai wrote: |
| but what it all comes down to is that NOTHING can replace on-the-job experience. |
On-the-job experience is like running, while studying in college is like walking. How can you expect to run when you can't even walk? Say you didn't go to college for management related studies, how can you work in managing? Would you even know what to do? No, you wouldn't.
How about if you want to be a computer programmer, wow, you just land a job and you don't even know how to program anything. Why should anyone pay money for you to not know anything?
| Sai wrote: |
| That's just BS, and I think it's modern society's way of having a class system. You're suddenly "worth more," if you have that degree that (GUESS WHAT) costs you a crapload of money to get. |
Not really. Say if you're the employer, would you just give the Manager position in your multi-million dollar company to Joe Blow who didn't finish high school? Or would you give it to someone who actually had the education about the position?
Having a degree doesn't really mean a thing for you (you can be as smart as Einstein even if you don't have a degree), but it helps A LOT for others to know what you have to offer. You having a degree would tell them that you are qualified to do the job because you've had proper education. Do you want to hire some random kid as your lawyer if he just finished high school yesterday? Obviously no. Do you want to eat at a restaurant that is run by someone who doesn't know anything about proper hygiene issue? Obvious no (or you might but you'd end up getting food poisoned).
| Sai wrote: |
| I just don't think it should be required, when you could learn a lot more with on-the-job training and experience. |
If you don't have a degree, then how can you tell your future employer that you are qualified for the job? Do you expect every single employer in this world to give a chance for anyone to give their shot at the position? How much time and money would be spent if they do that? And what if you failed after a few months ... well you don't have a degree, and apparently you're not qualified for this position as well .... the employer would be very unhappy.
_________________
~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Arcana
The Engineers
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Post Count: 2035
Location: Lion's Maw
190546 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know about most of you, but where I come from (Canada), College is NOT the same as University. This is also the case in Europe, where the two words are completely different concepts.
I will repeat, because I think it bears repeating: COLLEGE IS NOT THE SAME AS UNIVERSITY in many parts of the world. In the United States, people use the words college and university interchangeably, which confuses everyone else quite a bit.
College is usually considered "Technical College" or "Community College", and it involves learning skills of a trade or a craft. At college, you tend to learn things like "Hotel Management", "Clerical Studies", "Auto mechanic" and "Computer Programmer". These programs have a foundation that's built upon the skills and experiences commonly seen as useful by that line of work. No research is done at a college. It's only an institution of teaching and learning.
University, on the other hand - like the University of California, Stanford, or the University of Toronto, or whatever. At Universities, the professors are paid not only to teach, but also to perform research. Basically, it's academia and people will research things like detection methods for cancer, development of language in young children, or software verification methods. Professors get research grants from external sources of funding, which are usually private industry and the government.
As an undergraduate at a university, you enroll in programs like "Physics", "Computer Engineering", "Psychology", and "Mass Communications". You don't learn how to be a lab assistant, or how to design computers - you learn the fundamental concepts involved in physics, or how assembly language controls a microchip.
The idea of University is that you're learning things almost for the sake of learning, as has been mentioned by many people in this thread. You're not doing job training, unlike in college, which is very job-training based. You get a Bachelor's from a University. Most Universities also have Master's and Ph.D. programs as well (though the precise behaviour of graduate studies differs from country to country. Ask if you want to know more abou it, otherwise this just crowds up the thread with useless information).
As Black Pesmerga said... companies LOVE people who have gome through formal schooling. Why? It shows that you have intelligence and determination. School is considered hard by most people, so if you've gotten through it, you'e obviously more conditioned than someone who left early. It also shows adaptability and motivation. You go to school not to learn a craft, a trade, or a research area - you go to school to learn how to learn, and saying that you have a Bachelor's in something means that, "Yes, I spent four years doing this, I can adapt to whatever you throw at me."
There is a reason why 2 years of Master's work can be roughly equivalent to three years of experience. Many of my friends who have bachelor degrees cannot find work in their field. Many of my friends who got a Master's are employed in good work in their line of study. It's dramatically easier to get a job when you have a Master's, and you get paid more, too. This is the same for a Bachelor's versus only a high school degree.
That said - no, Post-secondary education is not for everyone. You have to actually have drive and determination to get through it, and a heck of a lot of discipline. As Sophia mentioned, those who don't have the motivation and the WANT to be present end up disappearing - it is common for engineering classes to shrink by FIFTY PERCENT after the first year. You'll start with a class of five-hundred people in First Year... and in Second Year, half of those people have disappeared.
Even trade jobs are now requiring certification. If you're going to be a carpenter, you're obviously not going to take 4 years of Computer science. I know someone who is training to be a registered electrician, and as a part of the process, he has to take a 10-week training course. He took a few yaers of University, so he had his Algebra and Calculus, but in the course, they're doing stuff like Trig, and most people can't get it. But... the point is that just because you don't go to college doesn't mean you're not going to ever have to sit in a classroom again, because even what used to be "low" jobs require you to take some formal education. A friend of mine told me to enjoy the University years, because after that, you don't ever get to sit and learn in quite the same way again - everything else after seems to be a smattering of day-long training courses and weekend seminars.
The final thing is that a Bachelor's degree (and any subsequent degrees) open the door to professional work. If you want to be pulling in 60K a year, you're probably going to want a Bachelor's for that job opportunity. If you want to be a company manager, you can't just "work your way up" anymore - you have to show that you have some kind of extra education because that's indication of potential. If you want to work in computer development or software design... get your Bachelors. Same if you want to be a psychologist, or a marketer, or an accountant.
I'm very pro-secondary education, but at the same time it's something that's not really for everyone.
_________________
Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sage
The Invincible Weeds
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Post Count: 15653
Location: Blight's Bay
803820 Potch
0 Soldiers
2 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Child of The Sea God wrote: |
| Probably one of the realest things i've ever heard about college. None of that college is required to successful in life bs. |
It all depends on what you're going to do. Try getting a job doing your own physics research without a PhD. You have a much better chance of becoming president.
Not only does a college degree show you have an education but it also conveys something about the person. It shows that you dedicated a part of your life to it and succeeded where others have failed. So it shows you have determination and you can get work done. Not saying that someone without a degree doesn't have those qualities, but they don't have a little piece of paper that says they do. Also, not everyone with a degree shows these qualities either, but it's a better assumption that they do rather than not.
| sybillious wrote: |
| college is a good thing, provided you know what you're after; a good deal of those attending right after high school don't take it seriously, but treat it as an extentsion of high school-same childish behavior, choosing to socialize in class, rather than actually learn what they're in class for. |
You've just described half my friends. :D Hopefully, they'll realize it soon. Luckily for me, very few people like that take junior/senior level physics courses.
Another mistake people make is that they think that a 4-year college prepares them for a job. It doesn't. It gives the student the tools that they need to do a job and sometimes how to use those tools. However, getting and doing a job is up to the former student.
EDIT: After reading Arcana's post, I mean university not college if you're going by those terms.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sybillious
Ebony Moon Knights
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Post Count: 5440
Location: Sawgrass Laneding
981865 Potch
59 Soldiers
60 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
having a degree also says something about the person, not just that they spent time in a school for x amount of years, but had the discipline to complete it. pair it up with work experience and you will stand above most applicants; employers prefer both, but they will take a degreed individual over a person with work experience based on the position's requirements.
managerial would go to the degreed person *unless that entailed a lower level management job-some places will accept experience provided that experience includes managerial assistant or an equivalent position.*
tech school is required for some positions as well; electricians, auto repair and body work, hairstyling-these are jobs that also need training and background, with further training falling under ojt.
sage, i understand where you're coming from; most of those i described are sifted out within a year or two and end up working where they can get it, or eventually dislodge their heads from their fifth point of contact and realise that they do have to actually put in effort to get the results they expect.
fortunately, most of those in that category that i have to deal with won't be transferring to the same school *at least, any time soon* so i only have to deal with it for a semester or two. personally, if i were the professor, i'd kick them out, tuition paid or no-disruptions in class aren't acceptable. if someone wants to be treated like an adult, they have to show they can handle the resposibilities that come with it *most can't.*
_________________
prinny...DOOD!
gotta gotta get a...SPICE WEASEL!
to paraphrase my fellow mod, parallax:
I hate my job with the passionately burning intensity of a thousand fiery suns. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deleted User 1
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Post Count: 0
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:23 pm Post subject: Its a good choice. |
|
|
Well I think that college is a great opertunity in life. I mean it might be more school than you would like but it is defIntEly worth it. I myself want to go to college cause if YOU dont there are basically no good jobs that would pay like with a college degree. So if you'RE still thinking about doing it i would say absolutly, if YOU want to do great things I would certainly encourage you to do it.
King Razor
*don't shorthand words and use punctuation...* |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lunarblade
White Wolf Templars
Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Post Count: 2081
Location: L'renouille
1428 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think the most important thing about College (or University, whatever...) is that it doesn't just prepare you for your future career, it prepares you for life. You associate and live with your peers 24/7, and you learn how to deal with sensitive problems. By being "left alone" from your parents you learn how to be independent without any dire consequences if you trip up.
The breadth of the courses of study you take help to prepare yourself for all that life hands to you, not just your particular job description. A variety of studies help you to be ready for whatever life has to offer you.
_________________
| Sinocard wrote: |
| I dont think I am above women, I think I am above everyone. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kohaku
Red Veil
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Post Count: 657
Location: Shangri-La
309182 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am at my second semester at University of Indonesia. While some people seems to put a lot of money in college, fortunately since it's the national Uni, I only have to pay a little, only about 500 dollars a year. It even could be free if you got the Scholarship. But it's so damn hard to enter, this is one of the few university in Indonesia where you can see a good number of foreigner studying here.
I took the study for Bachelor degree in Bussiness Administration, for the title BBA. I currently am taking 21 credits this semester, the most that I can take, hoping that I will be graduated in 4 years. It's really help not to take the Accounting Lab class, since it's 3 credits, but the class can consume a full 12 hours.
I really enjoy my study here, because I took the major that interest me most, economy. When you like it, believe me, study isn't hard at all.
About time, I think I can hadle it pretty well. I go to the uni by Bus for 1 hour, same when I going back. But I still had my time, I can still take part-time job. Like now, I was in my part-time job in an Internet Cafe, 'Cozy Net'. Even though the wages is so-so, but I can use the internet for free.
I had a plan of taking the Magister degree first before I search for a job. I believe that right now a bachelor degree only is not enough to got a job in an international company, like Unocal or Totalelf. I hope in a few years I got a sponsor for my study outside the country, like at Singapore or Malaysia. But the one I want most is at Sorbonne, since I can speak the language and there are relatives of mine living in France, so I need not to worry about the living expense. I plan to takethe magister degree fo financing, or management.
_________________
Last edited by Kohaku on Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Timbo
The Wandering Prophets
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Post Count: 2964
Location: Darja
410837 Potch
300 Soldiers
835 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lunarblade wrote: |
I think the most important thing about College (or University, whatever...) is that it doesn't just prepare you for your future career, it prepares you for life. You associate and live with your peers 24/7, and you learn how to deal with sensitive problems. By being "left alone" from your parents you learn how to be independent without any dire consequences if you trip up.
The breadth of the courses of study you take help to prepare yourself for all that life hands to you, not just your particular job description. A variety of studies help you to be ready for whatever life has to offer you. |
I don't know that college prepares people that well for the future. The future for most everybody turns into going to job everyday and doing what someone else tells you to do so you can get paid and go home.
College, if staying on campus, most everything is paid for at the beginning of a semester, you are constantly surrounded by people partying, diversity of classes doesn't really teach you how to react to everything that is thrown at you (all it does is teach you to follow what a book told you to do, igf there's no book you won't know what to do and it fddoesn't teach you how to deal with yourself and your emotions in those situations) and hangin out with college students teaches most people how to deal with problems like "We're out of beer" or "Man, I want to sleep with so-and-so but she doesn't like me" or "Man, I wonder if I can convince my teacher to give me another extension" or "Man, my parents stopped sending me money" or "Man, this sucks. I can't buy this new stereo I want". I think you can only learn how to deal with 'life'( because I can't think of another word to describe living day to day on your own for the rest of your life) is to do it.
But that's just what I think and what I learned about people at college,so we could be talking about completely different things.
_________________
"There is no normal life, there's just life. Now get on with it" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sai Fujiwara
Executors of Divine Providence
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Post Count: 3848
Location: Montmittel
22038 Potch
0 Soldiers
5678 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I figured a lot of you wouldn't agree with what I said. Needless to say, this is something I feel rather opinionated about. I think several of you had some very enlightened opinions to offer about how college should be viewed as a center for the continuation of learning. I'll agree on that, and I have learned some interesting things in college. Also, it's a whole lot better to interact with people there, because there is a huge maturity level jump from High School to college. Either way though, for what I figure I'll end up doing, I'm not too sure it's neccessary for me to get a degree. Sure, if I was going to be a programmer, or a historian, or lab tech, but I'm not. Those jobs don't interest me. I just want something that won't annoy the crap out of me, but at the same time, earn me a decent living, enough to support a family.
As for learning, yeah. It's cool, I like to learn about history, so naturally history classes are cool for me, BUT! Hey, guess what? Nobody is going to pay me for my history knowledge! So, yeah. Life isn't fair, I know.
However, if you DON'T want to agree with me, that's fine. Just make sure you get what I'm saying first... With that said...
| Black Pesmerga wrote: |
| Say if you're the employer, would you just give the Manager position in your multi-million dollar company to Joe Blow who didn't finish high school? Or would you give it to someone who actually had the education about the position? |
Um, well I see you didn't understand what I was trying to say. I would give the position to someone who had EXPERIENCE in the position. I would no more consider a high school dropout than a man with a four-year degree in management. This is, of course, assuming that NEITHER had ANY experience managing others. HOWEVER, if the dropout had been a successful store manager at a McDonalds, or even a retail store, and his employers spoke highly of him, then I would choose him. (Or her!) (Yes, this is also based on the assumption that the college graduate had NO experience.) It doesn't really matter. Sure, I would want someone with a degree for a programming position, and yes, SOME degrees are useful and relevant, just not mine. I'm just saying that NOT EVERYONE NEEDS A DEGREE. That's horse-hockey.
| Black Pesmerga wrote: |
| If you don't have a degree, then how can you tell your future employer that you are qualified for the job? Do you expect every single employer in this world to give a chance for anyone to give their shot at the position? How much time and money would be spent if they do that? And what if you failed after a few months ... well you don't have a degree, and apparently you're not qualified for this position as well .... the employer would be very unhappy. |
Depends on the job, I suppose. Again, my degree is in management, so if you think about that, than no. You don't need a degree for that. The most you MIGHT need are a couple of classes, not a frickin' four-year degree. That's stupid.
It's not so far-fetched to offer a job to someone who is inexperienced in that position. They train the individual (like anyone else), and pay them less, until they prove that they can do the job (say a month or so). If they can, great. If not, then voila! Pink slip! It's not rocket science, and if you hire internally, it's not that big of a deal. It builds employee loyalty, but I know nowadays no coporations are interested in employee morale. Just the bottom line. Not every job should require a degree. I find that if someone is going to be good at a job, then you can tell rather quickly. It doesn't take 10 years to find out, usually a couple of weeks.
I don't mind you disagreeing with me, I just wanted to make sure you got my point here! :D
_________________
Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Milan Fiori
Vanguard Elite
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Post Count: 14766
Location: Ceresfjellet
715991 Potch
0 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with Sai on the subject of hiring on expierence rather than on if they have a degree. I know alot of people who dropped out of highschool to work full time and most are now store managers and one is even regional manager and obviously none them had a degree. Now take my sister who spent 4 years in college and is one of the smartest people I know in her field, but as for the hands on part of it well she's horrible.
The same goes for me, I'm extremely book smart about cooking but when it actually comes to cooking even though I've had a couple years expierence I hesitate and mess up more far than someone who has been doing it for say 10 years and can't name the mother sauce made with fish or chicken stock. And even though I have this book smarts I'd still hire the person with the 10 years expierence.
_________________
Be awed by our prowess!
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vextor
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Post Count: 12081
Location: Hell
11324811 Potch
23689 Soldiers
160 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Most employers in my field (automotive industry) will not hire people who do not have a bachelors for any non-secretarial staff positions. Some manegerial positions would (often secretly) require an MBA in my field. Academic achievement is an excellent way for employers to screen out applicants and act as a "glass ceiling" for internal promotions as well. A bachelors degree in any field would be good to have in the long-run. OJT (on the job training) can get you far in certain industries (mainly in service industries), but many fields would require this (at the minimum). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kohaku
Red Veil
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Post Count: 657
Location: Shangri-La
309182 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just as SARS said, the degree is very important, especially when you're applying for jobs in a big/multinational company. I need not to say that this kind of company got a very big number of applicants, and they need to kick of some of the applicants. Academical degree is one of the criteria to select them. The ones without academical degree would never be considered for the upcoming interview.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sai Fujiwara
Executors of Divine Providence
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Post Count: 3848
Location: Montmittel
22038 Potch
0 Soldiers
5678 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SARSadmin wrote: |
| Academic achievement is an excellent way for employers to screen out applicants and act as a "glass ceiling" for internal promotions as well. |
Whoa! Am I to take this to mean that you believe in having a "glass ceiling?" (I'm not saying that you meant to say that! It's just what it looks like to me! :P )
From what I was taught in college (in a Human Resources class), the "glass ceiling" was a BAD thing, and was something that all companies should try to eliminate. Of course, it was normally described in the context where it was used to prevent women from getting any higher than a certain level. This, of course, is bad, however I don't think that a lack academic achievement should be used to hold someone down. Holding someone down for any reason is stupid, unless they obviously aren't talented enough for the position.
I think Milan Fiori had the right idea with what he said. Booksmarts are good, but they don't mean crap if you get a job and SUCK at it! Similarly, you shouldn't NEED to have a degree if you've done something similar and have shown tremendous potential at your field. I know that booksmarts and a degree are essential for SOME jobs, but I really have to disagree with you on this point. It is very possible for someone to be talented at a position, but not be booksmart at all.
To me, it almost looks as if you believe in having this "rich man's" club that I was talking about... This would be disappointing to me, but you are entitled to believe whatever you want. (Sorry, if I'm being too presumptious...)
I'm also anti-capitalist, but I'm not COMPLETELY Communist in the Stalin sense. I believe that Marx had the right idea, though... You see this at work in primitive societies, and I think that if we ever enlighten ourselves to the degree in which Marx envisioned, we could have a non-monetary modern economy. It all depends on what motives will drive humankind in the future. (Yes, I know I'll never live to see that.)
_________________
Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vextor
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Post Count: 12081
Location: Hell
11324811 Potch
23689 Soldiers
160 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I guess I shouldn't have used "glass ceiling" due to it being often used in the context of discriminating against women. I mean it purely in terms of academic dergees one holds (and I think I made that quite clear in my above post).
Also, note that I did not mention any of my personal beliefs. I simply stated what actually is the case within my field (automotive manufacturing). Whether that is a "good" or "bad" thing is subjective. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sai Fujiwara
Executors of Divine Providence
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Post Count: 3848
Location: Montmittel
22038 Potch
0 Soldiers
5678 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
I didn't mean to be too presumptious about your beliefs there. I know a lot of what I've said is purely subjective, hence that doesn't really make either one of us right or wrong. I just wanted to clarify one point.
You did make it quite clear that you weren't for discriminating against women. I wasn't upset at your choice of words. In fact, I was rather impressed at your use of a metaphor there. Sure, this metaphor WAS used to describe sexual discrimination in the past, but I thought that I made it clear that I knew you weren't implying it in that context. I liked it! It was clever! :P
I was just saying that I don't think that there should be a barrier that requires a degree at a certain point. It's an opinion we don't have a consensus on, but I do want to make sure you knew I wasn't trying to nitpick or attack you.
I know this thread is supposed to be about college... Sorry for turning it into a "DOWN WITH QUALIFICATIONS, GIVE THE COMMON PERSON A SHOT!" thread. It's just how I feel, ok? There ARE idiot savants out there, who just suck at school. College isn't for everyone, and should not be FORCED upon us, in America. However, that doesn't mean that these people can't contribute to society, or that they should be barred from earning a decent wage to provide for a family.
Yeah, that's why I'm in college. Like I said, learning interesting book-knowledge is cool, and I mostly just hate the coursework, because it requires me to work while I want to goof off. lol However, the same knowledge that I'm interested in, doesn't help me earn a wage. That's why my degree is management. History won't pay the bills, management will. This sucks, but it's an unfortunate thing that society has done to us, hence it's easy for me to make up all these "rich man's club" theories. Skyrocketing tuition doesn't help, either... :P
_________________
Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
