The Pope's Last Moments

[John Layfield]

He was a man, I don't care how great he was. And, in my opinion, he wasn't anyway. He was in a positon to say a lot of stuff and he did. And a lot of it was nice. And a lot of it was bull. Give me a mic and I can say that we shouldn't kill each other and that abortion is wrong too, it doesn't make it right.

I honestly like the Pope as a person, he was a genuine nice guy, who wanted things to be better, but he's 'only' a religious leader, he changed nothing. I do find the Church selfish, it gives money to charity, that's great but it could stand to give more, the Vatican doesn't need a huge surplus of cash just lying about 'for a rainy day'. It may give as much 'as any organisation' but it could stand to give a lot more if it wanted.

But that's beside the point, and people don't seem to understand what my post meant. I don't care about the Pope dying because he's the Pope, I care about the Pope dying because he's a frail old man in pain. He's famous, that's why everyone seems to care. I don't see many people weeping for the one person who dies every second on this planet.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Lunarblade]

That point about the Vatican having all those priceless art works / gold and silver stuff, and somebody noted that if they were to get rid of such works, it would be a cultural disaster. The Vatican holds almost 2000 years of European history in its vaults, there is no reason to move it. Practically speaking, it is obviously more effective to convey a message from a grand setting than an old, decrepit one.

The Pope's JOB is to tell people to follow the commandments and Jesus' word. If this involves getting involved in political affairs (such as capital punishment which he hated and I apporve of, or abortion which we neither approve of), then so be it.

Because being the Pope involves more than running around on the popemobile waving at people, ya know? :)

Anyway, no need for this argument to get heated, let's keep things civil...
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[John Layfield]

Well, y'know, I'm not cursing his name here. I mean, do people only read the first part of my posts or something?

Artifiacts of European history and the like are important but do you equate it above human lives? If so, I guess it makes sense to place their priority above the needy. And I also made reference to the fact that a great deal of the Chruch's wealth is in cash, in banks, not in artifiacts. Besides, they can still survive if you, maybe, sold them to museums and gave a percentage of the cash raised to those who would help the poor and needy.

In this day and age, I don't someone to be in a shiny room to be impressed by his words. Let the Pope have a nice pretty room then to make grand proclomations from, if you feel it's neccessary but isn't that really against the Christian spirit to 'lure' in followers with the image of wealth?

Anyone can also tell anyone else what to do. I just don't get to live in the Vatican while doing it.

And, yet, people seem to miss my point. I'm not caring because he's the Pope, I care because he's an old man, like any other old man, who's suffering in a hospital and I don't want anyone to go through that. (This is the part of each of my posts that everyone does their best to ignore, seemingly thinking instead that I simply don't care, period.)

And, to be honest, I find that a heck of a lot more 'Christian' than caring simply because he's my Big Boss.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Lunarblade]

[John Layfield]

I'll agree with that. Seems like we just had a mis-understanding of sorts before. I quite like the Church but I just had to put some of my views down to clarify why I say what I say about the Pope. Happy that's cleared up. Back to the man himself then.

Right now, I just hope he goes in his sleep or something similarly peaceful. It sounds terrible to say, but I hope he doesn't cling painfully onto life as long as he can, it'd be terrible for him to go through all that or end up having a machine doing his breathing for him. I feel he should go on with dignity, as any man deserves to after, to be fair, dedicating his life to something.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Sophita]

Woah, guys, let's keep things civil or this thread is going on a one way train to locksville, with a brief stopover in lockvinsky, and possibly a refueling in Kalamazoo Lockamaroo. I'm a fan of voicing dissent, but remember to do so respectfully.

Anywho,

Personally, while I've never completely agreed with all his viewpoints, I think Pope John Paul the Second was the best pope of the 20th century, possibly one of the best of all time. He did so much for the Church. He helped to heal the long breech between Catholics and Jews, Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthadox Catholics. He reached out to everybody and anybody, and he never rejected people for being too poor or being the "wrong" religion or what not; that is unfortunately a rare trait. He was one of the few people on this earth who, I think, loved everybody, as cheesy as that might sounds.

He even forgave the man who tried to kill him, and visited him in prison. How many people could do that? Turn to a person who had tried to end your life, and say, "I forgive you."? That's a humbling lesson to learn; there are times, I think, when everyone feels they could kill someone for far less. He seemed like a real honest to goodness Good Guy, and there's not too many Good Guys in this day and age. Could the Vatican have given more? Sure. But many churches don't even give to charity, and a whole ton of people don't either.

Could he have done more?

Perhaps. (Of course, everyone could; if everyone in the world donated more to the poor, we might not be able to end poverty, but you know what? We could do a dang lot to cure it.)

John Paul the Second did a heck of a lot, both personally and as pontiff, and he was only human. I might not have always agreed with him, but I always respected him, and even though I never met him, I get the sense that he would do the same for me even though I'm not even on the level of dirt compared to him.

John Layfield, I don't understand how you don't think John Paul the Second was a very inactive pope. During his time in office, he:

*Was the first Polish pope, and the first non-italian in nearly 500 years; it was a breaking of barriers

*Was and always has been a solid crusader against Soviet communism, unbridled capitalism, political oppression, and was not afraid to weigh in on more controversial issues like abortion

*Took more than 100 trips abroad; more than any other pope. These trips helped build global bridges, something I think is ever more needed in today's society if we are all to survive.

*Beatified and canonized more persons than any other pope

*His strands on issues like euthanasia, abortion, capital punishment, etc. are well known and highly influential in modern society. Whether you agree with him or not, the pope's words tend to hold a lot of weight on the subject.

That's quite a lot, IMO.
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SCII month continues! DueFiumi.com

John Layfield wrote:

But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD

[Solitude]

[John Layfield]

I am being civil. I agreed with Lunarblade in my previous post, there was no malice in any of our earlier posts. So far, I've said that the Church could do more to help people and that I like the Pope. Well, if that's going too far...

Anyway, I never claimed he was inactive, I just said that it made no difference to me.

He was the first Polish Pope? So? That wasn't an 'act' on his part, he didn't become Polish to break barriers, he just happened to be Polish, it can't be attributed to him as a great choice he made. He weighed in on important issues, sure, and people listened, and took guidance from his words and done both good and bad things. I, however, listened to experts in the fields of which he was commentating on. The fact is, the Pope is a guy, like everyone else, who has opinions like everyone else. He had a chance to offer them, he did. That's what he did, that's his job.

And, well, he can nod his head as much as he wants when advisors read out lists of possible 'saints', that means nothing to me. Besides, that's not a reflection on him, that's to do with THEIR lives, wouldn't you agree?

I am not going to try and disrespect the man because 1) it will construced as not being civil no matter how well I phrase it, like everything I've posted so far and 2) I don't disrespect him anyway, I like the man, it'll just be construed that way.

Strip away the power and the frills and what do you have?

An old, kindly, forgiving man, like a whole bunch of people all over the world are now as well who won't get world-wide recognition for it.

The problem isn't with my view. It's with how people seem to assume that 'making the Pope human' is some sort of horrible attack on the man.

And that's what I'm interested in, as someone who cares about people.

I care about Karol Józef Wojtyla, a person who grew up in Poland and enjoyed playing soccer as a young man. (in goal) Who later joined the priest-hood and rose up the ranks to become head of the Church. Whereupon, he used that power to try and spread his views of general love and respect as best he could. The man who lived his life to help people and now suffers away in a hospital hundreds of miles away from me while other people assume that he's immune to any form of critisism and that he's some sort of demi-human that you can only praise.

That's the person I'm concerned about, not a title or a leader. And that is no insult.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Solitude]

John Layfield, Its not really that your not being civil its just that I find your posting style to be well I don't know...offensive to some I guess. Mind you I'm Aethiest so I don't have an opinion on the pope one way or the other but I can still see how the way your posting would offend some people.

[Alcon]

CNN is now reporting that the Pope is beginning to show signs of losing consciousness.

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/02/pope1/index.html
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She spoke in dialect I could not understand
but one thing that she made clear:
there was no coming onto her;
there was no way.

[Sophita]

[John Layfield]

[Solitude]

[John Layfield]

A last post before I, myself, bow out for now until I get an update on his condition.

While I do, indeed, have an interest in the Pope as both Karol Jozef Wojtyla and John Paul II, my point as of now is that I simply don't care that he's Pope right now, only that he's a man in pain and suffering and who, based on that alone, should be relieved of it soon.

And by "simply don't care" I don't mean it as an attack on anything or anyone, simply that it doesn't factor into my mind, at all, about whether I should care. The fact that he's Pope or that he's famous or that it's simply nice to look respectful of other religions, isn't part of why I care. I simply care because he's in pain, that's all.

That's what I was trying to get at, but I fear the negative top-half of my posts seemingly battered the bottom-half into obscurity.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Vextor]

Although he is the third pope in my lifetime, John Paul II obviously was "the" pope for me, considering his long reign. When I think of "pope," the image I have is clearly that of John Paul II, always striding along in news reports, often pictured with dignitaries of the world. The image I have is that of a vibrant leader who worked himself like no other pope before him. He was a huge factor in the collapse of the Soviet Union. The fact that the KGB hired Mehmet Ali Agca to try and assassinate him in 1981 proves how big of a threat he was to the Soviets. Nations often became democratic after John Paul II visited, such as Chilie under Augusto Pinochet and Poland when it was still behind the "Iron Curtain."

But with his political accomplishments aside, John Paul II is widely known as a warm-hearted figure who has reached out to the poor, especially in third-world countries. Under his leadership, many cardinals were appointed from third-world countries instead of how the Conclave has been traditionally euro-centric. This boosed the Catholic population in the third-world, and a lot of aid has been pumped through the newly appointed cardinals. For this reason, the Vatican loses more money than it makes despite the fact that the "Vatican, whose bank, the Institute of Religious Works, oversees some $5 billion in assets and the world's largest art collection. According to books published on the subject, it holds several billion dollars in gold deposits as well as investments in the world's largest banks and most powerful international corporations. The 2,500 officials of the papal curia have a combined annual salary of almost $100 million" (quoted from some website). Althought that may sound slightly against scripture, the Vatican does spend a lot of money for charity, and mantianing such an organization as huge as the Roman Catholic Church is not a cheap endeavor either (the Catholic Church in the USA alone spent $22million for phone bills in one year).

Whomever becomes pope after John Paul II will have a very difficult task. John Paul II has redifined the role of his office in so many ways, that only his personal charisma can fit the mold (or so it seems). In a time when you can rarely find a leader you can trust in the world (they change their nature and flip-flop, including Bush), John Paul II has been a stark contrast with his strong opinions, honesty, and warmth.

One of the many episodes that shows his personal excellence is the following--