Suikoden Urgent and Illusional Karma Old Xperience

Suikox Home | The Speculation Shelter | Tablet of Stars | Suikoden Timeline | Suikoden Geography |Legacies


  [ View Profile | Edit Profile | Nation System | Members | Groups | Search | Register | Check PMs | Log in | FAQ ]

The confusing timeline of Suikoden IV / Rhapsodia
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Backstory, History & Plot Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Vextor




Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Post Count: 12081
Location: Hell
11324811 Potch
23689 Soldiers
160 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: The confusing timeline of Suikoden IV / Rhapsodia Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The more I look into it, the more confused I get... so I'll just write down some facts to sort all of this crap out.

Konami's official info for Suikoden IV related stuff.

Year 292: Queen of Obel uses ROP to blast Kooluk Fleet

Year 299: Rakghi's dad gains the ROP and dies shortly after. Graham Cray Gains the ROP somehow, chops his arm off, and the ROP goes to his step-son, who uses it to wipe out SME "human hunters."

Year 302: Start of conflict between Island Nations and Kooluk (Suikoden 4)

Year 307: Lino En Kuldes establishes the Island Nation Federation.


Rhapsodia:

Starts 3 years "before Suikoden IV." (must mean 299?)

It took "two years after the end of the Island Nations Liberation War" until Kyril was fully healed.

Kyril was "about 13 years old" at the start of Rhapsodia.

Kyril is 18 years old during Rhapsodia.

This means... Rhapsodia starts at the year 309, if we say the "Island Nations Liberation War" ended at the year 307.


What's messed up
Take a character like Nalleo for example. He is 16 years old during Rhapsodia, and he is supposed to be 14 years old during Suikoden IV (and official guidebooks say so). However, if the Island Nations Liberation War took a blasted five years starting in the year 302, Nelleo would have been 9 years old when the war started. Rita would be 8 years old... it's just a bit too messed up!

Lazlo, who was a newborn in 292, would be 13 or 14 years old when he gets the ROP.

Also, the Suikoden IV Official guide lists the following--

The Queen of Obel had the ROP "15 years ago"

Rakghi's dad had the ROP "3 years ago."

So the question is, "ago" from where?
Rakghi's dad officially got the ROP in the year 299, and 3 years after that would be the year 302, but 15 years ago from then would be the year 287, not 292 which is officially the year when the Queen of Obel supposedly uses the ROP to blast the Kooluk Fleet.... well... unless the Queen of Obel owned the rune for 5 years and didn't use it at all.


Then, another problem. If Rhapsodia finished in the year 309, then it would have had to have started at the year 304 based on Kyril's age. This seems to contradict with official info saying Rhapsodia starts 3 years before Suikoden IV (the war started in 302).

Lets say Konami screwed up and meant "Rhapsodia starts 3 years from ehwne Suikoden IV ends)." In that case things seem to make sense and Rhapsodia can start in the year 304.

However, in that case how could the Island Nation Liberation War have started in the year 302, when you meet a younger Brandeau, Kika, Sigurd, and Hervey in 304? Did the early portion (before the hero ever meets any of the pirates) take two or three years???

Man, I wish somebody can explain all of this to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ujitsuna

Red Shoes Dance


Joined: 24 May 2006
Post Count: 4823
Location: Pale Plains
936547 Potch
12000 Soldiers
675 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, the Rakghi's father scenario doesn't make sense, the Queen of Obel literally couldn't have had the Rune of Punishment for five years, it just isn't feasible from what we've seen of the rune's nature in the games. I can't explain any of it better than you could to yourself, but my thinking is that the whole thing is a blunder by Konami not taking the time to go over the timelime like they (supposedly) do for the main titles.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
HarmonianHiccup

Over-Enthusiastic Archaeologists


Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Post Count: 2832
Location: Zexen Forest
1333002 Potch
444 Soldiers
440 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This probably, as Hayashi-san said, just a result of Konami not paying close enough attention!
The same thing happens when I try to line up the ages and things between Fire Emblem Six and Seven. None of it makes sense and I just end up giving myself a headache...
_________________

Proud Owner and Operator of The Hiccup's Speciality Grassland Atelier, the only place to find Electric Whiffle Bats!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Aurelien

20.01.08


Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Post Count: 7736
Location: Jowston Hill
1567728 Potch
0 Soldiers
157 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, I think I can try to explain.

First things first, when it comes to character age, "3 years before Suikoden IV" referred to the end of Suikoden IV. This is very likely because "end of Suikoden" was what used in relation to Suikoden I-II-III too (e.g.: Suikoden II took place 3 years after the end of Suikoden I and therefore the age of characters in Suikoden II would be counted PLUS 3 years after the end of Suikoden I).

If we assume so, then Rhapsodia starts at 304, Suikoden IV ends at 307, and Kyril was healed at 309. Let's see what happened when it comes to age and whatnot first.

304 (Rhapsodia starts -> 3 years before Suikoden IV ends)
Kyril 13 years old

307 (Suikoden IV ends)
Nalleo 14 years old

309 (Kyril healed)
Nalleo 16 years old -> fit the info
Kyril 18 years old -> fit the info

Now we move on to the mentioned problems. The storyline issue about "3 years ago" and "15 years ago" not matching up.

3 years ago = 299. That means it is 3 years before 302. This fits the information that IS 302 is the beginning of Island Nations and Kooluk conflict (start of Suikoden IV). On this case, 3 years ago referred to beginning of Suikoden IV because it wouldn't make sense for it to be 3 years before the end due to the fact that "3 years before the end of Suikoden IV is the same as 2 years after it begins". They wouldn't say 3 years ago if that's the case. (personal note: it would be much better if they said 8 years ago instead so that everything can go with "the end of Suikoden IV", but yeah .. no big deal)

15 years ago = ?? it can be 287 or 292. The thing that we don't know is when exactly the Queen of Obel got the Rune of Punishment itself. If the Queen didn't use the True Rune for 5 years, then it's no problem. After all, it is possible to attach the rune somewhere and not straight on her body right away. Due to the nature of the rune, it is possible that the Queen avoided using it until she had no choice left.

But if we were to assume she had it at 292 and then used it straight away in that year too, then "15 years ago" becomes "15 years before the end of Suikoden IV" which is exactly IS 292. Of course this is confusing as heck since Konami changed from the start of Suikoden IV into the end of Suikoden IV. But it fits the information regardless.

Then there's a problem of meeting up with younger pirates in IS 304. Based on the timeline, it is perfectly possible that the early portion of Suikoden IV indeed took more than 2 years time. After all, the war that seemed to be quite short in terms of gameplay ended up going for 5 long years. This lengthy early part of the game is probably also the explanation as to why Nalleo/Rita didn't join the army when they were still 8-9 years old, and instead around 11-12 years old. It might be "messed up" for such young people to get involved in a war, but hey, it's Suikoden. Tuta joined at young age too. So it's not a problem.

So in my opinion, everything except the Rakghi's father obtaining RoP would be based on the end of Suikoden IV.

Summary:

IS 292: Queen of Obel obtained and used Rune of Punishment (15 years before end of Suikoden IV at IS 307)

IS 299: Rakghi's father obtained Rune of Punishment (3 years before the beginning of Suikoden IV at IS 302)

IS 302: Conflict between Island Nations and Kooluk started

IS 304: Rhapsodia starts (Kyril 13 years old)

IS 307: Suikoden IV ends (Nalleo 14 years old)

IS 309: Kyril healed in Rhapsodia (Nalleo 16 years old, Kyril 18 years old)

There's probably something wrong about it, who knows. I'm running out of time for now. So I'll have to leave it at this at the moment. I'll look into more possible explanations if there are more problems showing up.
_________________



~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KeeperS




Joined: 18 Jul 2007
Post Count: 1

906 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If Suikoden 4 starts at IS 402, Rhapsodia can't start at IS 304.

Remember, Rhapsodia begins with a scene where you see Lazlo and Snowe as young children. They're definitely younger there than at the start of Suikoden IV, so the Rhapsodia prologue has to come first.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Simply put, I don't believe the Island Liberation War started before 305. "Conflict between the Island Nations and Kooluk" can refer to any sort of skirmish or a general era of sour relations.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Vextor




Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Post Count: 12081
Location: Hell
11324811 Potch
23689 Soldiers
160 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

True that is. That means, possibly "Conflict between Island Nations and Kooluk started" means something completely different. Or Rhapsodia actually starts at 299... but in that case, character ages for people who appear in both Suikoden IV and Rhapsodia won't make any sense.

The easiest solution would be to say that "Conflict between Island Nations and Kooluk started" at 402 be declared as being something totally different. Maybe this actually referrs to when Gaien and Kooluk had their battle... I don't exactly remember what Glen said, but did he say it was "5 years ago" when his fleet was decimated by Troy?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Vextor wrote:
I don't exactly remember what Glen said, but did he say it was "5 years ago" when his fleet was decimated by Troy?


I just booted it up and he says "Seven years ago".
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Vextor




Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Post Count: 12081
Location: Hell
11324811 Potch
23689 Soldiers
160 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I guess in that case fans can take the extreme measure and declare that "Konami's official information is wrong" and ignore the entire "Year 302: Start of conflict between Island Nations and Kooluk (Suikoden 4)" entry. There's plenty of other "official information" which has turned out to be wrong (either through actual data or contradiction), after all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Pretty much all we can do, dude. We went through this ages ago at Their Star, remember? There's no real adjustment that will fix all this. It is just fundamentally incorrect.

Annoying for keepers of canon such as ourselves but it's all we can do.

Looks like any contributions Rhapsodia has made to the timeline should be distrusted at best and thrown out at worst. The whole ages issue depends on whether we're taking it from the start or end of the war and also whether we use the old Japanese system like Suikoden I, II and III or the western system, which seems to be the standard in Suikoden V.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Masa

Fightin' Nac Mac Feegle


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Post Count: 2157
Location: Dana
418570 Potch
0 Soldiers
10000 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What if the Island Nation War lasting five years is meant to encompass both the events of IV and Tactics, with the implication that Tactics is an extension of that war?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Doubt it. Everyone refers to the war in the past tense during Tactics. There was even a ratified peace treaty signed between the two nations and Kooluk's beef in Tactics was with Scarlet Moon, a fair bit away from the INF.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Raww Le Klueze




Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Post Count: 129

56792 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's hard to believe Suikoden IV is supposed to span 5 years. When the heck does this time go by as the story flows pretty damn steadily throughout the game? At least in Suikoden they took the effort to introduce the "X time later" marks.
_________________
Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eXistence of Fly

Pointy Sticks & Ponies!


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Post Count: 4191
Location: Obel
1151694 Potch
7700 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Raww Le Klueze wrote:
It's hard to believe Suikoden IV is supposed to span 5 years. When the heck does this time go by as the story flows pretty damn steadily throughout the game? At least in Suikoden they took the effort to introduce the "X time later" marks.


When you think about it, it's feasible considering the technology they had, you couldn't picture entire navy's taking hours instead of days to sail from point A to point B using El Eal to Obel as a base for a single voyage. In Rhapsodia, they place time on such points and what seemed like a 5min voyage from Razril to Middleport was 1 day's voyage. 5 years can drag out quite easily if you're attempting to fast track a game to bypass all the 'nonsense' sailing that you would do between important events.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Raww Le Klueze




Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Post Count: 129

56792 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

eXistence of Fly wrote:
When you think about it, it's feasible considering the technology they had, you couldn't picture entire navy's taking hours instead of days to sail from point A to point B using El Eal to Obel as a base for a single voyage. In Rhapsodia, they place time on such points and what seemed like a 5min voyage from Razril to Middleport was 1 day's voyage. 5 years can drag out quite easily if you're attempting to fast track a game to bypass all the 'nonsense' sailing that you would do between important events.

I can imagine it taking a week or so to get from El Eal to Obel, maybe even two weeks. But even so the traveling alone wouldn't even take up 2 years of the timeline. I'd find a year to be stretch actually.

It's hard to say how long it would take between one place and another cause we have no sense of scale on the maps. If we use Rhapsodia as an indication of how long it takes (which I wouldn't really do, but it's all we got) then you can get to Kooluk from pretty much anywhere in Island Nations in a week.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Backstory, History & Plot Discussion All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
suikox.com by: Vextor


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
  Username:    Password:      Remember me