Suikoden United and Irrational Kosher Oblique Xperience

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Minor States of Kooluk
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Minor States of Kooluk Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Since the fall of the Kooluk Empire, apparently there are now small nations states that have somehow been able to keep their independance from the Scarlet Moon Empire and each other. How exactly do we think this is possible, since the SME is as shown by Suikoden Tactics and stories we hear of it before Suikoden I an increasingly aggressive country, why exactly is it that they have chosen not to take all the practically defenseless land to the south of itself?
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maybe those small nations are actually puppet nations to the SME, or simply bought their peace, whatever the price that may be. I don't think they actually survived a war against the Empire's military.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If we look at this historically, you can see that independent city states have often been able to stave off invasions from much larger more powerful nations. Look at Greece in the Persian wars for the easiest example to see. You can also look to Feudal Europe, the Italian City States, and the German Hapsburgs for examples of powerful independent nation/city states. So to assume that the nation states of Kooluk are defenseless may be assuming a bit too much.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm taking what Uji said into play here:

Quote:
keep their independance from the Scarlet Moon Empire and each other


The Greek and Italian City-States, while not a country per-se, had some kind of "nation alliance" (the Greek had the Delphos League, for example), and they weren't so much independent from one another. What Uji says there is that they are separated countries. No alliances mentioned, I don't think they would survive too much time against a good number of Empire soldiers.

I'm not saying they wouldn't put up a good fight, but it would be a question of time until they fell. And coming up from a divided country, moral doesn't seem to me to be all that high.
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Gil-galad

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While both the Greeks and Italians both had alliances at different points in their history, they both often fought wars amongst themselves. The Greeks internal warfare was one of the major reasons for their fall to Alexander's father and coming under Macedonian rule. So once again, following historical precedent (which the Suikoden games may not), I don't think it's outside the bounds of reason to assume that closely related groups of people, in this case the Kooluk nation states, could unite to fight off foreigners, just as the Greeks did to the Persians-- and then after resuming their internal strife.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's why I said: "no alliances mentioned".

With alliances, their chances are very good. Without them, not very much.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Who is to say that they could be at war with each other as well as SME? I suppose it's just Konami making bad judgements to include Kooluk and not properly mention anything about it in Suikoden V.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote:
Who is to say that they could be at war with each other as well as SME? I suppose it's just Konami making bad judgements to include Kooluk and not properly mention anything about it in Suikoden V.


Trust me, It's not the worst move Konami has made. They leave things vague all the time and create seemingly plot holes. These things happen a lot when a series goes backward and not forward (Not that the time settings bother me).

If I could explain their inability in a story view. Scarlet Moon was a powerful nation, but Nations aren't all about war and it's possible they didn't make any major conflicts because they just didn't want to commit the forces for various reasons. A fight with a destroyed Kingdom could have united the people again and just made them a bigger threat. In the form of city-states they no longer pose threats and they never make a forceful take over for that or another reason. They do take some towns near their borders and this was most likely initiated by the people of the towns.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Userito wrote:
If I could explain their inability in a story view. Scarlet Moon was a powerful nation, but Nations aren't all about war and it's possible they didn't make any major conflicts because they just didn't want to commit the forces for various reasons. A fight with a destroyed Kingdom could have united the people again and just made them a bigger threat. In the form of city-states they no longer pose threats and they never make a forceful take over for that or another reason. They do take some towns near their borders and this was most likely initiated by the people of the towns.


The threat of Jowston is a good reason, but a big enough reason for that threat to stop them invading for about 150 years? I think we just have to acknowledge that the Scarlet Moon Empire just didn't want what used to be Kooluk and that no one ever mentions them. As for what you said about former Kooluk uniting against the Scarlet Moon Empire if they invaded, well whilst that is possible, Kooluk has to be a relatively tired nation from all their attempts at expansion and the in fighting between the different factions. Theres also the issue that even when the Kooluk Empire was at it's peak, it did not invade SME.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I assume these states would not be as large as the other nations of Suikoden. I assume they would be similar to the islands in Suikoden IV, where they would be small indipendant civillizations that belong to no nation, nor are nations themselves. Perhaps a couple of them could be countries, with a government and all. I'm also assuming that by the time of Suikoden I, that some of them evolved to larger nations, but not much. A lot can happen in 150 years, after all.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

When and where does it state that Kooluk still exists during Suikoden I? I thought it was a common conception that Kooluk might now be part of the Scarlet Moon Empire.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It doesn't. However, after the fall of Kooluk, there are some independant states that do not join the Scarlet Moon Empire.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Scarlet Moon took the northern territories of Kooluk after the collpase of the nation in 309. This includes the Small Border Village and, possibly, as far south as Haruna, although I doubt, for whatever reason, (not wanting the burden of a pile of impoverished citizens?), they got to Graska, Merseto or, heaven forbid, El-Eal.

Also, remember what a city-state is. It can be simply a self governing population center.

As for the nature of Scarlet Moon, I can't honestly think of a time when the Empire actually invaded another nation with the intent of conquering it. Border disputes, yes, but out-right annexation? No.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

John Layfield wrote:
As for the nature of Scarlet Moon, I can't honestly think of a time when the Empire actually invaded another nation with the intent of conquering it. Border disputes, yes, but out-right annexation? No.


Well thats because when they've had the border disputes, the enemy nations were organised and at full strength. Kooluk's state after it's destruction leaves it open to an easy invasion by the SME, I just don't see a reason why they wouldn't use this chance to expand and go beyond mere border disputes.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Likely because Kooluk was a useless hunk of rock. It was full of starving citizens in a crumbling infrastructure undergoing an economic recession. The land was terrible for crop growing and the people were, for some reason, highly loyal to the Kooluk government.

I wouldn't have taken the place if you had paid me. It isn't the war game where every region is a plus, even if it's stats are in the craphouse.
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