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Playing for the other side; a different sorta Tenkai
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Artificity

Ronery Puratoon


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject: Playing for the other side; a different sorta Tenkai Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not sure if a thread has been made for this, or if this idea has already been brought up by anyone but I'll ask it anyway.

Taking into consideration that Leknaat appears to people who inadvertently bear a True Rune and are forced to gather stars to move the rune towards its destiny, or at least that's a rough explanation of it, wouldn't it be awesome if the next TR happened to be something that manipulated the machinations of War? Like a rune of destruction or some such that forces the Tenkai to literally obliterate people and nations in order for the rune to reach its purpose. I'm not talking about casualties of war here; I'm talking about genocide and a viewpoint of a person who doesn't fight to rise from his underdog roots but a person who treats the land like a slash-and-burn farmer treats forestry.

What if the next Tenkai has to destroy all traces of a ruinous society in order for them to start literally fresh from scratch? Even the SOD could be people who believe his fanatical call and will have no qualms of culling the chaff from the wheat. Tenkai won't be a thing like Luca either, he's actually got a firm grasp of his sanity but has beliefs that are unshakable, resulting in what he does. The idea's totally out there but I'm interested in how anyone would manage to pull it off while garnering sympathy like Tenkai stars are supposed to do.

Oh man. That'd be bizzarely awesome.
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Sami

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Heh, nice idea. It could fit in Armes, for example. But I doubt Konami has the guts for a storyline like that.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's certainly ....creative, but I doubt a story about a hero willfully commitings genocide would exactly, er, burn up the charts.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah I'm not sure that'd even get an 18 age rating. :P Like a Disney Nazi cartoon or something, it just isn't right. I understand however that you want the hero to do more gutsy things, like invade without being provoked or secure True Runes just because he/she feels like it. However Konami seem to be quite Mickey Mouse in the way they create the stories, always have to be fighting on the undoubted side of good and such.
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Artificity

Ronery Puratoon


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Disney Nazi cartoons existed in the forties actually and Donald was awesome in them. But I don't want to start off sidetracked...

I'm not necessarily asking him to go about bending any visual rules that Konami have installed so far (Constant lack of blood, no actual gore, etc.) but the idea that the new Tenkai needs to destroy something that will cause far more ruin if left untouched. To paraphrase from (my dear sweet) Isabel: He hopes to bring in less evil into this world than he removes from it.

Let me pitch a plot to the audience. I don't make any guarantees that it'll be great but I'll pitch it anyway.

For the sake of argument since we don't know anything solid about them, let's assume that the Sindarian race were advancing farther and farther into a realm that almost broke the lines between science and magic, or to be more exact, mortal and godlike. Their knowledge of runic magic, and the technology that they've established, had already brought them to a level of world domination. This makes sense because so far, we've established that in practically every corner of the Suikoden globe you will discover at least one Sindar ruin, proving that if they were indeed a race of people, they would have been a very expansive race that existed everywhere. Universal control would be a very likely reason.

This totalitarian grip over the world as it was brought about peace and tranquility and whatever you'd like to call it but robbed the people of their right to be truly free. Anyone starting rebellions were immediately quelled, the runes were all controlled and secured in their respective shrines, each owned by their respective hosts. This is where I'd like to bring the plot in.

The Sindar have reached the pinnacle of existence and now that the runes have all reached their purpose, what else is there for people to do or for the world to look forward to? Nothing. And thus the TR of Destruction comes into play, gathering 108 people to bring back the freedom to shape destiny the way it was always meant to be. No man should have the power to control everything.

Long story short: Tenkai gets the rune, brings about the fall of the Sindar empire, people are separated in the fall of the entire world and they all start anew. Previous owners of the true runes are forcibly separated from them, eliminating their curse of immortality. Tenkai is obliterated by the rune in the end and all runes scattered equally to be discovered and used when they are again discovered in their own respective times.

Would it sell? Probably not. But I think it'd make for an interesting explanation of how something so advanced as the Sindar are now reduced to ancient dungeons that everyone hates having to explore unless you're Killey.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldn't mind a morally ambiguous Tenkai for a future game in the series. The Tenkai doesn't have to be evil. He or she just has to be more realistic in making the difficult decisions. Like destroying a bridge that would stall a larger force from attacking the Tenkai's HQ, but doing so means having to kill refugees fleeing the opposing army by way of the bridge. If bridge falls into the river with people in them well those are just casualties of war where the stakes are much higher than a handful to a hundred of innocents.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Artificity wrote:
Disney Nazi cartoons existed in the forties actually and Donald was awesome in them. But I don't want to start off sidetracked...


Yeah, that was part of the joke. :P

I'm all for making choices yourself that effect the entire country good or bad, gives you more freedom to shape the character how you want.
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Rezard




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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's good to have choices, but in Suikoden they usually dont change much of the history and, when they do change, the game usualy penalizes the player who don't follow the strategist orders or don't do what's moral.

So in the bridge example, if you choose destroy the brigde, the game could punish you by making you lose some star among the refugees.

I'm all for making choices too, but some that you are free to make, the game doesn't expect you to be nice all the time. One perfect example is Tactics Ogre, in this game you can destroy a enemy village to create a rebelion inside your enemy country or not. The game becames different depending on what you choose, but you are not penalized from choosing any of them, you can get a good ending with both options.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd like to see a Tenkai that hears voices (possibly from the True Rune) which cause him/her to do rather nasty things (slaughter people, torture POWs, etc).
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hell, I just want blood and I think playing on the otherside would warrant that. Hohoho.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

What if the next Tenkai has to destroy all traces of a ruinous society in order for them to start literally fresh from scratch? Even the SOD could be people who believe his fanatical call and will have no qualms of culling the chaff from the wheat. Tenkai won't be a thing like Luca either, he's actually got a firm grasp of his sanity but has beliefs that are unshakable, resulting in what he does. The idea's totally out there but I'm interested in how anyone would manage to pull it off while garnering sympathy like Tenkai stars are supposed to do.


I'm all for the idea, but I'm not sure how feasible it is in planning. For one thing, a lot of your allies are usually people who feel like there's something wrong with the current society, and that's why they join you. They may push for severe reform, but most of them simply want to have change instead of complete destruction.
It's easy to see why. It's very difficult to win the support of the populace when you tell them 'Okay, you know what? This kingdom is screwed; we're gonna destroy it.' Depending by what you mean by 'complete destruction', the people are likely to simply drop their support for you if they feel threatened.
Economically speaking too, the new country would be very weak, with little chance of rebuilding. This would mean that it would be very weak and other nations nearby may attempt to conquer it.
If the Tenkai is going to succeed, he's going to have to be close to miraculous. First, he'd have to be able to presuade his immediate followers that what he's doing is good for them, which probably has a few people of political significance. Next, he'd have to show that whatever he comes up with when rebuilding the country is far better than what is available now. He'll also have to justify every decision he makes where it involves a lot of losses.

Can he do it? Sure he can, if the game is more open-ended. Typically, people don't want to make bad decisions in Suikoden because they'll get a bad ending. However, the idea is certainly feasible if more options were added, and the game itself allowed for ways to get back SODs who desert you when you make certain decisions. I would personally like a Suikoden 6 where your ultimate aim is to cause a complete refomation of the country (the best ending), and how you play the game and make your choices determines how absolute is your victory over your enemy. That would be a game I'd play over and over.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Artificity wrote:
Disney Nazi cartoons existed in the forties actually and Donald was awesome in them. But I don't want to start off sidetracked...

I'm not necessarily asking him to go about bending any visual rules that Konami have installed so far (Constant lack of blood, no actual gore, etc.) but the idea that the new Tenkai needs to destroy something that will cause far more ruin if left untouched. To paraphrase from (my dear sweet) Isabel: He hopes to bring in less evil into this world than he removes from it.

Let me pitch a plot to the audience. I don't make any guarantees that it'll be great but I'll pitch it anyway.

For the sake of argument since we don't know anything solid about them, let's assume that the Sindarian race were advancing farther and farther into a realm that almost broke the lines between science and magic, or to be more exact, mortal and godlike. Their knowledge of runic magic, and the technology that they've established, had already brought them to a level of world domination. This makes sense because so far, we've established that in practically every corner of the Suikoden globe you will discover at least one Sindar ruin, proving that if they were indeed a race of people, they would have been a very expansive race that existed everywhere. Universal control would be a very likely reason.

This totalitarian grip over the world as it was brought about peace and tranquility and whatever you'd like to call it but robbed the people of their right to be truly free. Anyone starting rebellions were immediately quelled, the runes were all controlled and secured in their respective shrines, each owned by their respective hosts. This is where I'd like to bring the plot in.

The Sindar have reached the pinnacle of existence and now that the runes have all reached their purpose, what else is there for people to do or for the world to look forward to? Nothing. And thus the TR of Destruction comes into play, gathering 108 people to bring back the freedom to shape destiny the way it was always meant to be. No man should have the power to control everything.

Long story short: Tenkai gets the rune, brings about the fall of the Sindar empire, people are separated in the fall of the entire world and they all start anew. Previous owners of the true runes are forcibly separated from them, eliminating their curse of immortality. Tenkai is obliterated by the rune in the end and all runes scattered equally to be discovered and used when they are again discovered in their own respective times.

Would it sell? Probably not. But I think it'd make for an interesting explanation of how something so advanced as the Sindar are now reduced to ancient dungeons that everyone hates having to explore unless you're Killey.


Great storyline. This tenkai should get a badass bladed weapon like a scythe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To me, there are some flaws already about the idea that would not make this work.

1. There is no [whatever thing/Sindar or not] that controls everything.
To say that Sindar (just as example) has universal control seems very doubtful considering that they have been playing a very minor part in Suikoden series so far. With 5 games so far having 5 big conflicts going on, we have yet to see a single interference from the Sindar people. Had they have any control whatsoever, then it would be more likely that they take action to "solve the conflict how they want it". But yet, we've seen Tenkai after Tenkai doing it instead.

2. There is so little known about the Sindar to say that they existed everywhere.
Yes we've seen a lot of their ruins, but for all we know at the moment, the idea seems to go with them travelling through these places from one to another rather than living everywhere. It is more likely that the Sindar move together as one group from place to place leaving behind their ruins rather than having a group here and a group there.

3. True Rune of Destruction would affect the balance of the world greatly.
If there is such thing as True Rune of Destruction, then most likely it would be at the opposition's hand rather than on our own hand. Considering that there can only be one set of 108 SoDs at one time, Leknaat would not be on the True Rune of Destruction's side supporting world annihation. Balance must be kept, and she would be on the other side brainwashing the next Tenkai to gather 108 SoDs to stop the bearer of True Rune of Destruction.

4. If point #3 is true, then Suikoden would fall into generic "save the world" story like most other RPGs.
Short point, I think that would suck. I know that Suikoden games are all pretty much "save the nation" which isn't too different than "save the world", but the smaller scope of the heroic story made things far more personal rather than "save the world" that usually don't make much sense. Example: Zidane saved the world in FF IX, but seriously, no NPC knew that at all and there was no sense of being a hero. On the other hand, Tir McDohl saved Toran Republic and ended up being the national hero.

5. It is very difficult to justify that kind of mindset (of destroying everything to start from scratch) to be on the "good guy" side.
An important aspect of Suikoden story so far for me is that I can relate to the Tenkai's story and dilemma. To fight for your country even if that means fighting your own father? To fight for what's right even if that means fighting your best friend? And so on. They are all things that I can relate to and understand. But try telling me to kill everyone so that we can start again from scratch, and my reaction would be "wtf are you thinking?"

---

All in all, I think the basic idea is okay, but I think it is far too difficult to pull while all making it justifiable to the players. For me personally, if we were to follow the assumption of "Sindar controls everything", it would make more sense if the Tenkai is a Sindar who doesn't like what the race is doing and therefore trying to stop them. In such case, the target is limited to a far smaller scope of "just trying to stop/eliminate the Sindar from playing god to other people" instead of "stop/eliminate Sindar by destroying everything to start from scratch".
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Tenkai and stars of destiny tend to get together to balance out something, as Leknaat wants them to do. Unfortunately I think it would go against the principles of the game if the Tenkai was the one bringing destruction and death, it wouldn't technically be "correct" in my view. Although it would be great to finally see a Tenkai do something bad, guess we'll just have to wait until Leon Silverberg serves under the Tenkai... :D
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote:
Although it would be great to finally see a Tenkai do something bad, guess we'll just have to wait until Leon Silverberg serves under the Tenkai... :D


Go play Suikoden I, Uji. :P
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