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Harmonia's Old Shape
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Harmonia's Old Shape Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Something that has always bugged me was how the Highland Kingdom and the Scarlet Moon Empire were once part of the Holy Kingdom of Harmonia, while the Dunan Monarchy/City States of Jowston were not, this would lead to some quite strange territorial borders and shapes for Harmonia in the younger part of it's history. It also means, that unless Harmonia had control of the Ryube area ("Eastern Muse" - as it's called), that the country would be split into two. The area outlined is Eastern Muse, with the exception of Kyaro town, which may or may not have been part of the Dunan Monarchy.


This map is from the greatest web site in the world, none other than the great John Layfield's Due Fiumi Suikoden site, and yes I am just kissing up so he won't hurt me for using his map. - http://www.duefiumi.com/


It also seems strange to me that Harmonia would allow the Dunan Monarchy to keep it's independance from itself, seeing as how Harmonia to this day wants to lay it's hands on The Grassland, why not all of Dunan, too?
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AA

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well there are these things called boats, and they allow people to travel over water :P

Nah it is a strange way for Harmonia to act. I think Duncan broke away from Harmonia or it might have even been Harmonia's forbearer that it broke away from, though it may not bee too far fetched to assume that Duncan may have had some military might of it's own.

Or it could be that Harmonia was busy to the north at this point in history, or maybe another civil war was breaking out.
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Ikano

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Perhaps Highland etc were "part of Harmonia" in the sense of colonies?

I mean....if you take the fact that the original US colonies you could technically call "part of Britain" before it became independent....But Britain I don't think was actually drawn on the map as such....at least from what I've seen....

Well yeah....anyway....apply the "colony" idea to Harmonia and Highland, etc it could make sense....no?
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, Highland was part of Harmonia (not a colony, just a part of Harmonia itself), but what I'm saying is even with that, it is very hard for Harmonia to also occupy the lands of the Scarlet Moon Empire without having some sort of presence in Eastern Muse and Kyaro.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If you look at the colonization of africa, an empire doesn't necessarily span adjecently through countries. harmonia was a vast nation, so it would make sense they had control in multiple areas.
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Ikano

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ohhh hmmm....well....the only thing I can think of is that possibly they set up some trade thing going with the City-States that they would think to leave it alone for now (I vaguely recall something someone in Greenhill mentioned about Harmonia maybe...? :? )
...I mean if I was a Harmonian official looking at this map strategically....I wouldn't really consider the city-states a threat more so then Scarlet Moon or Grasslands...

As far as how they reached SME.....I always felt that Ryube was a rather neutral place....if they didn't go by boat they might've gone through there then set up camp right on the border......at least some of them....
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Rezard




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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

First we have to be sure of something: Is east of Toran really the sea or is it land over there? Remember that those maps usually mark as sea unknow parts of the world.

Maybe those lands east of Toran are Harmonia's territories and it conects with the rest of it trough the east.

About Dunan mantaining its autonomy, who knows? Maybe they won favors from Hikusaak, paid tribute to Harmonia or they were too poor to be a good country for invasion.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Rezard wrote:
First we have to be sure of something: Is east of Toran really the sea or is it land over there? Remember that those maps usually mark as sea unknow parts of the world.


How have you come to that conclusion? John Layfield didn't make a guess as to what Toran was shaped like, that is the shape of Toran, no approximations or guesses.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Also, travel from Jowston to Toran is treacherous at best, and the sea route is much shorter (only takes two weeks from Gregmintser to L'Renouille). Thus, it makes sense that Harmonia didn't need some sort of land access through Jowston to get to Toran.

It's perfectly normal for a nation to have areas of control in places that are separated by the sea, anyways. There's plenty of examples in the real world, even to this day.
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Scarlet Assassin

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually Uji-cakes, Rezard brings up a valid, but unlikely point. We don't know if that's all ocean out to the east of the former SME, there could be land. For all we know the continent we're looking at is proportionately the size of Australia on Earth, and of absolutely no importance. It's unlikely, but it's possible.

The city of Greminster (Then called Rupanda, or something akin) was once the Capital of Harmonia, meaning that the central offices of the Harmonian Empire were ostensibly located in its southern half, which would make the Northern Area more likely to be colonized territory than anything else. But that's not what we're arguing as it is fairly clear that we're not dealing with colonialism, but rather secession and rebellion. I don't know where it is stated that the areas of the Dunan Republic never belonged to Harmonia or the Aronian Empire/Kingdom, but if someone could find me a source on that one it would be much appreciated. I'm more likely to believe that the Dunan Monarchy was a section of the Empire that broke away sometime after the Scarlet Moon Empire had done so. This suggestion would stretch the borders of the Harmonian Empire from the Northernmost known territory to the boundaries of Kunan, where it was resisted by Klift the Crusader. That sounds to me like the Harmonian Empire everyone is so afraid of.
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Seraphblade

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Harmonia does seem like an expansionist type of nation. Maybe they did plan to conquer the Duan Monarchy but they pose a much greater threat than Grassland and Harmonia wanted to take care of Grassland first. However, after the succesion of the Scarlet Moon Empire and giving Highland to the Blight family, they probably lost interest because they have no geographical connection to the city states.

I don't think it's likely that the Dunan Monarchy was once part of Harmonia. It is one of the oldest countries in history formed after Harmonia.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Scarlet Assassin wrote:

The city of Greminster (Then called Rupanda, or something akin) was once the Capital of Harmonia.


This is actually inaccurate, and wrong info was on this site so not your fault or anything. Rupanda was never Harmonia's capital. It was merely called a "Holy City."

Quote:

I'm more likely to believe that the Dunan Monarchy was a section of the Empire that broke away sometime after the Scarlet Moon Empire had done so.


This is impossible because if you look at the timeline, the Dunan Monarchy is more than a hundred years older than the Scarlet Moon Empire.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It just doesn't seem likely to me that in a video game the empire would be divided up like that, unless "The Badlands" were not bad at all back then, which is possible I suppose based on the amount of time that passes. So for the moment we just have to decide they did everything by sea?
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Rezard




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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote:
How have you come to that conclusion? John Layfield didn't make a guess as to what Toran was shaped like, that is the shape of Toran, no approximations or guesses.


It is just a hypothesis, we know how Toran is shaped, but we don't know how Harmonia is shaped. Toran and Harmonia could have a comon border in the east.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's actually impossible based on official information. Konami has released a full world map, which shows that the area east of Toran is basically ocean.

Thus, unless Toran has land on a separate continent or something, where Harmonia also has land, they won't be geographically connected with a land border, but even then they'll be geographically disconnected from their mainland anyways.
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