Suikoden Uncouth and Illusional Knowledge Oblique Xperience

Suikox Home | The Speculation Shelter | Tablet of Stars | Suikoden Timeline | Suikoden Geography |Legacies


  [ View Profile | Edit Profile | Nation System | Members | Groups | Search | Register | Check PMs | Log in | FAQ ]

Peace in Toran for a long time?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Backstory, History & Plot Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Beethoven4567

Sacred Guards


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Post Count: 158
Location: Crystal Valley
39804 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There is absolutely no problem at all for elves and kobolds to be living alongside humans in one city, whichever side is the minority, since they're all Toran compatriots. It's not like as if they would have to go to another country like Dunan and Tinto. They are IN their country, their beloved motherland. Even in our world people would travel thousands of miles to another country to seek better jobs and education, so why should the non-humans in Toran have any qualms about leaving their villages. Ater all, only two or three would move to Gregminster and Kaku. If i am the President of Toran i would propose for an inter-cultural programme to be implemented as part of a government project to instill more friendship and unity among the different races. This programme would be to send three humans to live in Kobold and elven villages for up to 1 month, while three non-humans would be sent to Gregminster to live wiyh humans for a month.

The programme would enable closer bonds between Toran compatriots, and foster deeper understanding of each other's cultures. But this programme must be voluntary and not forced upon by the Toran government. If an elf is appointed Great General, then his military units will be a mix of human and elven soldiers. The non-humans must be willing to die to defend the capital city from invaders for example from Dunan just like they would die defending their villages. With that, Toran could finally achieve a harmonious and united society 8) .
_________________
"In war there is no substitute for victory"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The question, however, is do the non-human races really see themselves as Toranites first and Kobold/Elves/Dwarves second? Or vice-versa?

Racism and prejudice would continue to exist. Not at the same level as before but it would exist. After all, tests have proven that all humans are essentially the same, with no ethnicity been given superior or inferior abilities by the basis of their race (and it's plainly been obvious for centuries prior to any such 'evidence' anyway) but it hasn't caused the collapse of racist societies world-wide.

Elves might've liked the Liberation Army for beating up Kwanda Rosman but he's still the man that destroyed their home. How many angry elves are willing to listen to stories of 'the survivor of the Gate Rune Clan and her manipulation of the Empire and use of the Conqueror Rune in her plans to gain the Rune of Life and Death' as an excuse to explain the lack of punishment given to one of the new Republic's Six Great Generals?

Kobolds on the other hand are easily lead. As long as Toran has a strong President and the chief of the Kobold Village is pro-Toran then there's nothing to worry about there.

And dwarves? Well, dwarves don't seem to care what happens as long as it doesn't hold them back from their work. As long as Toran leave them research weapons and as long as they continue to furnish the Republican Army with the best armour and the like, things should be fine.

Either way, the Great Forest area is part of Toran the same way it was part of the Scarlet Moon Empire, as a convenience, not as a choice reached because the people there shared a sense of national identity. A marriage of convenience.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Beethoven4567

Sacred Guards


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Post Count: 158
Location: Crystal Valley
39804 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If i were an American, i would think of myself as an American first and a White/Black/Asian second. That's why you see 'white men trying to act black', and 'asians trying to act black'. That just goes to say that race doesn't matter to them as long as they befriend nice guys and think of each other as fellow citizens. If everyone in Toran can do that, then we can see 10-40 humans living in elven and kobold villages and 40 elf/kobold living in human villages.

Maybe one day we can see a human marrying an elf in Toran :D . Not too sure about a human-kobold pairing though. That would sound......weird :roll: .
_________________
"In war there is no substitute for victory"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But you've had 200 years of history to help you out in America. What if you were an elf who always considered himself independant from the Scarlet Moon Empire despite its claims and then suddenly there is a whole new country with no history claming jurastriction over the land, that save for a couple of dozen elves (at the very best) they had no part in creating.

Hardly something that'd make you put your hand on your heart is it? I'm sure the native Americans pledged alliegence to the old red white and blue and meant it the second the union made a claim on their lands.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Beethoven4567

Sacred Guards


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Post Count: 158
Location: Crystal Valley
39804 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But the elves are not opressed and enslaved by the Toran Republic. They live happily ever after and have no reason to hate humans since the atrocities committed by Kwanda Rosman was due to Windy's evil spell. The situation in Toran is unlike that in Harmonia, where non-humans are discriminated against and enslaved by the Harmonians, who forcefully seized their land.

Let bygones be bygones. John Layfield, do you mean to say that, for example, if the Dunan Army successfully invaded Toran and are nearing the capital, Gregminster, the kobolds, elves and dwarves wouldn't do anything for the defence of the capital?
_________________
"In war there is no substitute for victory"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

They most likely would. As would the Dragon Knights. But that would be more in the sense of an alliance than true national unity.

A lot of things happen without government approval. The Toran government don't need to sign a Discrimination Act to make it happen.

Bygones be bygones and all the rest is fine and dandy. And seeing as it practically is a 'happy ever after' ending, I can assume that's what happens. But there's a difference between that and feeling true national pride in a united Toranese nation.

A better example of this would be the Kurds. They had realitive automony that they believed in but which wasn't accepted by the outside community, like the Elves, they then helped an allied force liberation the region in which they were located, like the Elves, and instead of independece they formed part of a new government structure in the region, much like the Elves.

Do the Elves feel as 'Toranese' as the Kurdistani people feel 'Iraqi'? If so, it's not a lot. You're expecting an entire race that has lived in isolation as an automonous group for centuries to suddenly gain national pride in an ideal they never fully embraced. That's a bit much to ask.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Beethoven4567

Sacred Guards


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Post Count: 158
Location: Crystal Valley
39804 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

John Layfield, you sure know your history :P . Anyway, since you didn't mention the Kobolds, i would like to ask you on what role they play in Toran? Comparing Toran and Dunan, the kobolds in Dunan are more socialized and 'open-minded'. They mingle with humans frequently in Two Rivers City, and are led by a respected and talented General Ridley-one of Dunan's proud military commanders.

Ever since the Dunan Unification Wars, the various races living in Two Rivers City have been more united than before the Highland invasion. Do you think the kobolds in Toran would be respected and acknowledged like their fellow canines were in Dunan?
_________________
"In war there is no substitute for victory"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, as far as I can tell, the reason behind the integration of Kobolds into mainstream Dunan society is simply because they didn't have a spell around their village like their Toran counter-parts.

I'd say that it wouldn't take Kobolds too long to gain equal status in the eyes of the majority for the most part. They're a very open race by nature and their shorter life-spans mean that it won't take as long for their entire ruling generation to have spent all their lives in an open republic, their biggest difference being physical. Their physical and mental range is much the same as humans. (Don't confuse their sometimes basic English as stupidity)

And with Kobold might being very useful in war, say, like against South Window and Tinto after they occupied Senan, then you can see how they would gain rapid acceptance.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Aurelien

20.01.08


Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Post Count: 7736
Location: Jowston Hill
1567728 Potch
0 Soldiers
157 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Beethoven4567 wrote:
There is absolutely no problem at all for elves and kobolds to be living alongside humans in one city, whichever side is the minority, since they're all Toran compatriots. It's not like as if they would have to go to another country like Dunan and Tinto. They are IN their country, their beloved motherland. Even in our world people would travel thousands of miles to another country to seek better jobs and education, so why should the non-humans in Toran have any qualms about leaving their villages.

You're confused. Leaving their village is a big thing because their village is practically the only place where their race hangs out in Toran. For you to expect an elf to live in Gregminster as a Great General as the only elf in town is very naive. Yes it might represent "equality" between races. Hooray we got 1 Great General from each race. But what do you do to that elf? Expect him to live like humans because he's the only elf in town? How cruel is that?

Despite all the nice and dandy things about equality between races, you must realize that they are still different than humans (not lower or higher than humans, but simply different). Hence, it is naive to expect them to enjoy being "equal" in all terms.

Quote:
If i am the President of Toran i would propose for an inter-cultural programme to be implemented as part of a government project to instill more friendship and unity among the different races. This programme would be to send three humans to live in Kobold and elven villages for up to 1 month, while three non-humans would be sent to Gregminster to live wiyh humans for a month.

I've said it before and I'm going to say it again, you sound like real politician, dude.

But seriously, you're missing the key element. You don't know whether they want to learn different culture or not. You can't have an inter-cultural program if there's no interest for them to learn. You can't expect them to want to learn other culture when they have no interest in other culture.

Quote:
With that, Toran could finally achieve a harmonious and united society 8) .

Is it not harmonious and united after the end of Gate Rune Wars? I want to know what your answer is to this. Because from what I've seen of what you've posted, you made it sound as if they're going to break apart easily if there's no equal this and that, or multiracial thingamajik, or something. I have yet to see a single racial issue after the Gate Rune War. If you haven't either, why fix something that's not broken?
_________________



~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Beethoven4567

Sacred Guards


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Post Count: 158
Location: Crystal Valley
39804 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, now that i think of it, it is kinda naive to think that all the races in Toran can get along with each other like as if they are all the same species. I have replayed Suiko 1, and when you get to the Elf Village, you can see their hostility towards humans judging by the way they speak to Tir. It would take a long time for the elves' wounds to heal after their oppression by Kwanda Rosman during the Gate Rune Wars.

As for the kobolds in Toran, they don't live in the same city/area/village like their counterparts in Dunan do, so the majority of them don't interact with humans as often and widespread as their Dunan counterparts. I could conclude by saying that the kobolds in Dunan are more friendly towards humans than in Toran. I still remember Ridley's courage and determination in the midst of the war against the Highland Army. He's such a heroic dawg :mrgreen: . It would be cool though for the Toran kobolds to live in the same city with humans like in Dunan.

If the Toran government is sincere about the wishes of the non-humans, then they could conduct a poll in the non-human villages, asking them whether they are satisfied with the current autonomy or whether they want to secede from Toran. But the poll/questionnaire must be conducted by elves/kobolds/dwarves to prevent rigging by human racists(although there are few of them in Toran ). Currently, the status of the non-human territories in Toran are like China's regions of Tibet and Xinjiang. They are officially classified as 'Autonomous Regions' but are still technically part of China. But would President Lepant allow the non-humans to secede from Toran? Are the non-humans dependant on the humans, or vice-versa?

Perhaps the motto in Toran is 'tolerance' and not 'assimilation'. Maybe the elves in Toran can learn a thing about unity by travelling to other countries like Dunan, Tinto, Zexen, and the Grasslands? In the Grasslands and Zexen we can see interracial couples like Zexen woman-Karayan man in Brass Castle and Karayan man-Chishan woman in Duck Village. I hope there will be a human-elf marriage/couples in Toran :mrgreen: . But, please, no Kobold-human marriages :roll: . If there were any Human-Elf marriages, what would we call their offspring?
Humelfs?

Lastly, the inter-cultural programme that i proposed is voluntary, not forced. Meaning, it is up to Toran compatriots to decide whether they want to take part in the programme or not. It might be cruel to send Rubi or Kirkis to Gregminster, but as an ice-breaker, why won't humans ask permission from the elves to live in their village for a month? It would be good for each side to learn more about the other side, to establish even closer bonds with respect and love for each other's cultures.

Thanks for your replies. They are very thought-provoking and intellectual.
_________________
"In war there is no substitute for victory"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Sasuke

Blue Komet Ninjas


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Post Count: 29
Location: Rokkaku
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

<Just some unjustified theories, they're suppost to be a joke, again: no seriousness put into this whatsoever>


Well, I dont see a Toran-Jowston war that unlikely, after all: Today's allies are tommarrow's enemies. the world of suikoden tends to be more gritty, although we get a happy ending in the game, it seems after our party things don't necessarily go that well. Im not saying that Toran and Jowston would immediately start fighting each other, but after awhile when the 'afterglow' of the Unification war wore off, along with the after glow of the fall of the scarlet moon empire, old rivalaries and disputes could flare up again. Jowston could decide that it wants it's territory back after awhile, maybe a economic depression or drought would act as a catalyst.

Toran itself could eventually break into civil war, Maybe the old racist hatreds between the elves and the dwarves flare up after a trade dispute between the elves agricultural production and trade, and the dwarves GNP of ore that they produce. Riots ensue, Lepant's Sucessor has to call in the a army contingent, declaring martial law, gathering forces in the Southwest and that would be a perfect time for Jowston to invade.... :twisted:

And maybe the Kobolds actually want to get into politics? "who are you calling uncle tom!". The Kobolds civil rights movement starts, leading into extremism.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Beethoven4567

Sacred Guards


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Post Count: 158
Location: Crystal Valley
39804 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sasuke, what you say has some truth in it. Comparing the people of Dunan and Toran, the people in Dunan seems far more united than in Toran, where every race lives in their own territory.

Er, after the Dunan Unification Wars, Jowston became known as the Dunan Republic, with Teresa as President. However, in my opinion, a Dunan-Toran war would seem unlikely because if the Dunan Army wants to invade a large nation like Toran, they would have to deploy at least 80% of their army for the Toran campaign, leaving the Higheast region vulnerable to a Harmonian invasion. According to my estimates, after Suiko 2, Dunan stationed 60% of their army in the Higheast region to guard against Harmonian invasion. So, if a war breaks out between Dunan and Toran, Harmonia would definitely seize the opportunity to invade the Higheast region, which would have less Dunan forces guarding it due to the war with Toran.

After that, with Dunan facing a war on two fronts against both Toran and Harmonia, Tinto would then invade Dunan, giving the Dunan military three fronts to fight against. So, Dunan would be careful to keep its relations with Toran stable out of fear of Harmonia.

These are my estimates about the size of each nation's army a year after Suiko 3:
Dunan Army: 50,000
Tinto Army: 10,000
Toran Army:70,000( including non-human units and Dragon warriors )
Zexen Army: 6,000 infantry; 1,700 cavalry
Harmonian Southern Regional Army: hard to estimate.

Anyway, would you guys like to see a human marrying an elf in Toran?
_________________
"In war there is no substitute for victory"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldn't mind either way, to be honest, as long as it was a matter of love rather than just breaking a taboo.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sasuke

Blue Komet Ninjas


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Post Count: 29
Location: Rokkaku
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This is a newbie question but..Where did you get the stats on each army's troop count?

well with my theories, i was thinkin it wouldn't happen right away. i was thinking maybe 10-20 years down the line, maybe toran starts cutting back its military, mothballing units, cutting programs and pay.

and maybe Dunan's plan of attack isn't total annexation of Toran, maybe just the northwest province (the fort that Kasim was stationed at), and only pushed alittle farther south. And the Dunan army might not be successful but it would drag Toran into a war that it would most likely win.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Beethoven4567

Sacred Guards


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Post Count: 158
Location: Crystal Valley
39804 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sasuke, the stats for each countries military size are based on my estimates.
The northwest province where Kasim's army was stationed in Suiko 1 is known as the Senan region, which has a border with Dunan at the north.

Even if Dunan just intends to grab the Senan area, the people of Toran would not accept losing that area and will continue to fight to regain territory lost to the Dunanites. And by the time Dunan troops cross into Toran, Harmonia would no doubt seek to invade the Higheast province.

So, Dunan would not be in a position to invade any country, unless it has 200,000 troops in its army. Dunan is surrounded by three nations-and has to deploy its military over a large area. So, the only nation that Dunan can invade easily is Tinto, if Harmonia doesn't intervene.

It's funny, right? Dunan doesn't have the capability to invade Toran, but Toran has the capability to invade Dunan. Dunan shares a land border with three countries-one a military superpower, while Toran only has a land border with one country, which is Dunan. Judging from that, we could conclude that Dunan's security is much more threatened by invasion than Toran. However, as i have said defore, Dunan and Toran would continue to be close allies for a long time, because both nations want to make sure that Harmonia doesn't embark on a military campaign that could threaten Toran and Dunan's interests.

The only thing which we don't know is the probability of a pro-Harmonian aristocrat in Dunan becoming the ruler of Dunan. If that happens, we could see a joint Dunan-Harmonian invasion of Toran. After all, like Sasuke says, today's friends are tommorow's enemies.
_________________
"In war there is no substitute for victory"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Backstory, History & Plot Discussion All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
suikox.com by: Vextor


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
  Username:    Password:      Remember me