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Suikoden V timeline clarification? [spoilers :)]

 
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Puu

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:19 am    Post subject: Suikoden V timeline clarification? [spoilers :)] Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Suikosource Timeline wrote:

438 - Falenan Succession War
The revered but aging Falenan Queen Olhazeta dies, leaving a vacant throne. This escalates the struggle between her daughters, Falzrahm and Shahrewar, for control of the throne. They each start to enlist the Nether's Gate assassin group to force the other into submission, killing many senators, nobles, and even the husbands of each princess.

439 - Falzrahm Ascends to Throne

Shahrewar gives up her right to the throne to Falzrahm, who assumes the throne of Falena. Her first act is to command the Nether's Gate to kill her sister, believing her capitulation simply another plot.

449 - Sun Rune War
Arshtat is killed by the Queen's Knight Georg Prime, although this was actually the result of a coup by the Godwin faction. Lymsleia, her daughter, is crowned Queen, under the supervision of the Godwins. The Prince and the Queen's sister, Sialeeds, escaped the capital and regroup under the protection of Salum Barows in Rainwall, and form an army to depose the Godwins, now in complete control of the Falenan Army, beginning what is referred to on this site as the 'Sun Rune War'. The throne now pursues a 'Falena for Falenans' policy, involving the subjugation of various cultures like Raftfleet, and the extermination of demihumans. The various groups in Falena unite against the reigning Godwins, and they are deposed. Now in complete control, Queen Lymsleia abolishes the corrupt Senate and creates a parliament system, with representatives from each town, regardless of race.


I was speaking earlier tonight with a friend who has actually finished Suikoden V before me. (I'm not done yet, darnit!) We were RPing the night before and at one point, I checked out the Suikosource timeline to see when exactly Luca Blight and Sara Blight had been abducted. (You know, to see if it was before the Sun Rune wars or not...) Friend said then that something about the Suiko V timeline was funny. She couldn't pinpoint it then but told me tonight was it was.

The Sun Rune wars occurred at 449 Solis. The Sacred Games is said to have occurred, by people in the game, sixteen years prior to the game (which would make Freyjadour around 15 gamewise). According to Suikosource's timeline, the Falenan Succession Wars happen 11-10 years prior to game. My friend argues that if the succession wars happened at that time, then, there was no way Arshtat could have had her Sacred Games before that and borne Frey... because, as Sialeeds had stated, only the crown princess has the honor of having a Sacred Game to her name...

And until the conclusion of the succession wars, Arshtat wasn't crown princess, was she?

So there, I'm just voicing my friend's thoughts. Note that I have yet to finish the game. T_T; Still just after HQ upgrade ;3;;

Oh and, quoted the Suikosource Timeline :D

Me wonders if that was just a typo/error...

Also, on a side note... Oooh. Nash Latjke is as old as Lym! <3
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Masa

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I believe the answer to this is that, just like with Lymsleila, the Sacred Games happened several years before Arshtat had to become Queen. I'm pretty positive this is the case, but I haven't double checked.

You'll note in the game Ferid feels it's a bit too early for Lym to already have to be preparing to get married. Arshtat was also young when it happened to her, but not quite as young as Lym was. Had the war in Suikoden V not happened, Lym probably could have waited ten, twenty, or who knows how many years before she ascended the throne, despite already having Gizel as a husband.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If it was during the succession war probably Haswar had a sacred game to. They was so much fighting going around and we had two royal family members fighting for power of the Falenan Throne.

Let me simplify it because it kind of has me confused with what i had just said. If this was during or around the time of the succession war, then probably Arshtat's mother((who's name i can not speak due to how hard it is to spell)) believed she would win the war and hence had a sacred game for Arshtat. This led for Arshtat to make the pact with her cousin and sister because she did not want to see this kind of war happen again amongst her people.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Haswar never had the Sacred games held for her. Arshtat is the only person we see (apart from Lym) that has had those games held to find a husband.

Last edited by Ujitsuna on Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Masa wrote:
I believe the answer to this is that, just like with Lymsleila, the Sacred Games happened several years before Arshtat had to become Queen. I'm pretty positive this is the case, but I haven't double checked.

The question is not whether Arshtat Falenas became a Queen immediately adter her Sacred Game or not. The problem is: at the time her Sacred Game was supposedly held, she was not even a crown princess - because her grandmother Olhazeta was still the Queen and her mother Falzharm was the younger of the two daughters - while Sialeeds testified that only crown princesses are entitled to a Sacred Game. The Prince was born well before the Falenan Succession War started.

The official record stated that Arshtat was pushed for a Sacred Game before Haswar - which supposed to be a crown princess at the time because her mother Shahrewar was one - because of heavy pressure from the Barows faction. This suggested that a Sacred Game was actually planned for both Haswar and Arshtat, so it was usual for even a daughter of the second-in-line to the throne to have a Sacred Game. Judging from that assessment, there are only a few possible explanations for the current situation:

1. Arshtat changed the rule after she got in power to ensure no further sibling rivalries.
2. Sialeeds lied to hide her vow to never marry.
3. "Crown princess" actually refers to the oldest daughters of each branch in the royal family.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Scrooge McDuck wrote:

1. Arshtat changed the rule after she got in power to ensure no further sibling rivalries.
2. Sialeeds lied to hide her vow to never marry.
3. "Crown princess" actually refers to the oldest daughter of the royal family.


Is Haswar younger than Arshtat? I don't see why the oldest daughter in the royal family would be the crown princess though. In royal families, the members of the other branches aren't considered until there's no one eligible to rule in the main branch...

Ugh. I'll have to finish the game first and see what I notice T_T;
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Puu wrote:
Scrooge McDuck wrote:

1. Arshtat changed the rule after she got in power to ensure no further sibling rivalries.
2. Sialeeds lied to hide her vow to never marry.
3. "Crown princess" actually refers to the oldest daughter of the royal family.


Is Haswar younger than Arshtat? I don't see why the oldest daughter in the royal family would be the crown princess though. In royal families, the members of the other branches aren't considered until there's no one eligible to rule in the main branch...

Ugh. I'll have to finish the game first and see what I notice T_T;


Haswar is older, it's just Barows pushed the idea of Arshtat's Sacred Games into the Queen's mind.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Puu wrote:
Scrooge McDuck wrote:

1. Arshtat changed the rule after she got in power to ensure no further sibling rivalries.
2. Sialeeds lied to hide her vow to never marry.
3. "Crown princess" actually refers to the oldest daughter of the royal family.


Is Haswar younger than Arshtat? I don't see why the oldest daughter in the royal family would be the crown princess though. In royal families, the members of the other branches aren't considered until there's no one eligible to rule in the main branch...

Ugh. I'll have to finish the game first and see what I notice T_T;

I apologize for the miscommunication. What I meant is "the oldest daughters of each branch in the royal family". I am aware that such thing is unusual in royal families but this is merely a supposition, as we do not know for certain how exactly the system works compared to a typical monarchy.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was always of the opinion that Falzrahm, along with her Barows husband, used Senate influence to pressure the Queen into giving Arshtat a Sacred Games. Shahrewar (who was married to a Godwin) was at the time heir to the throne, so at the time Haswar (despite being Shahrewar's daughter) didn't really have any claim to the throne. That ambiguity, I'd imagine, is what allowed the senate to push for Arshtat to have a Sacred Games.

Basically, I've always viewed it as a bending of the rules.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's stated in one of the ancient books that Arshtat's mother, Falzrahm, held an "illegitimate" Sacred Games for Arshtat as a ploy to make her the next Queen (because her daughter would be the next in line for the throne anyways). Technically, Arshtat shouldn't have had a Sacred Games at all (or at least not until after Falzrahm later officially became Queen). This act was also one of the events that sparked the really bloody succession wars, which is why it did take place years before the actual war (the political turmoil of that succession had started long before the "war" did).

And the reason Lym's Sacred Games happened so early, as already stated, is that indeed Salum Barows had pushed Arshtat to do so. He knew Godwin was gaining a lot of power in the senate, and he feared that it would be too much. If Euram could win the Sacred Games, he would secure power in the future. Too bad this ploy backfired, and essentially lead to both his and the Queen's death.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

poorguy171 wrote:
It's stated in one of the ancient books that Arshtat's mother, Falzrahm, held an "illegitimate" Sacred Games for Arshtat as a ploy to make her the next Queen (because her daughter would be the next in line for the throne anyways). Technically, Arshtat shouldn't have had a Sacred Games at all (or at least not until after Falzrahm later officially became Queen). This act was also one of the events that sparked the really bloody succession wars, which is why it did take place years before the actual war (the political turmoil of that succession had started long before the "war" did).


Now we're getting somewhere. Can you, please, quote the Ancient Book excerpt here? Or can someone please...?

^_^ <3
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ancient book number 5!

Quote:
And what could be considered the culmination of this secret strife was the Sacred Games of Princess Arshtat. Even though Princess Shahrewar's daughter, Haswar, was older than Arshtat and therefore had a higher priority of succession... Princess Falzrahm and Lord Barows tenaciously persuaded Queen Olhazeta into letting them hold the Sacred Games for their own oldest child, Arshtat, before Haswar's Sacred Games. This was, of course, a strategy of Princess Falzrahm's to lend credibility to the idea that she herself was the predominant successor.

But, amazingly, the one who won Princess Arshtat's hand in marriage at these Sacred Games was a barbaric swordsman from a foreign land. If either the Barows or the Godwin family had won, the possibility of a rise to arms had been expected. This outcome, then, ironically, led to a cooling down of the antagonism between the two factions. But that peace only lasted until 226, when Queen Olhazeta passed away. With the prospect of the actual throne so close at hand, antagonism was rekindled even before the mourning period of the Queen was over.

And that antagonism turned instantaneously into a bloody struggle. And throughout this struggle, Nether Gate's nefarious influence was the cause of most of the bloodshed. Nether Gate is usually under the direct control of the Queen, but the throne was vacant during this time. And so Nether Gate Played both sides, executing assassinations for both Princess Shahrewar's and Princess Falzrham's Faction.

Nether Gates ultimate goal was to cling to power no matter which side acceded to the throne. In the end, though, their actions brought unprecedented bloodshed to the Sun Palace. The war of succession saw countless victims, as many from both the Godwin and Barows faction were slain. In the end, even the husbands of the two Princesses themselves were assassinated.

Not wanting to see any more bloodshed, Princess Shahrewar -- not having a very strong personality by nature -- lost the will to fight and gave up the throne to her younger sister. But Princess Galzrahm had become suspicious of anything and everything. She thought that even this noble gesture of Princess Shahrewar's might be a trick. Thus, she ordered the Nether Gate, to assassinate her older sister.

After acceding to the throne at last, Queen Falzrahm died of illness only two short years later. After all the bloodshed that had occurred, this ending was hardly dramatic. These years of internal conflict and intrigue have left a brutal scar on the Queendom of Falena. this scar will not easily -- nor quickly-- heal.

But the Princesses Arshtat, Sialeds, and Haswar are determined to never repeat their mothers' mistakes. Many feel that this will certainly be the Queedom's salvation.


So I'm guessing... Lord Godwin was actually an Uncle to Haswar? And Gizel was her cousin? The same with Lord Barow's being Uncle to Arshtat... and Euram being Lym and the Princess cousin.

That is unless they were from different branches of their respective families. While reading the book, I almost thought Lord Godwin was Haswar's father, and Gizel was her brother. But it's said that Haswar's father died from the Nether Gate. So he couldn't be. But what made me think that in the first place was that Lord Godwin's wife was killed by Nether Gate as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Milan Fiori wrote:


So I'm guessing... Lord Godwin was actually an Uncle to Haswar? And Gizel was her cousin? The same with Lord Barow's being Uncle to Arshtat... and Euram being Lym and the Princess cousin.

That is unless they were from different branches of their respective families. While reading the book, I almost thought Lord Godwin was Haswar's father, and Gizel was her brother. But it's said that Haswar's father died from the Nether Gate. So he couldn't be. But what made me think that in the first place was that Lord Godwin's wife was killed by Nether Gate as well.


In short, the Barows and Godwins and the Falenan Royal family are sort of relatives. X3 Royalty... no wonder they sometimes spawn 'mad princes'.

Uber thanks for the quote <3 That certainly cleared things up! ^_^
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