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'real life' use of the True Runes
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Puu

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:30 am    Post subject: 'real life' use of the True Runes Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This being my first thread in this forum, I'm not sure whether this actually fits here... but if it doesn't, my apologies D:! And please be moving it!

Anyway, I decided to join because I certainly have a few things I've been wondering about. For example, disregarding the spells and spell levels, how would True Runes (or perhaps, runes in general) be utilized in a 'real' Suikoden world? Certainly, they wouldn't always be lifting their right (or left) hands and uttering a (sometimes, somewhat ridiculous) spell name to activate said spell, would they? Especially in the True Runes' cases. Having seen bits of the Suikoden III manga [For example, when /please be highlighting/ Luc uses the True Wind Rune to alter the pressure within Jimba's body and to choke him, basically], can we assume that True Elemntal Runes, for example, literally grant its bearers near-ultimate control of their element? (Like, look! I can make a butterfly out of water :D See the design! Or, oh, look, Avatar-esque!)

Also, that made me wonder - if True Runes (let's just look at the True Runes for now) are affected by its bearers emotions - and we know what happened to the Fire Champion - does that mean, say, the True Water Rune bearer was upset, it would rain? Can the True Water Rune bearer actually make it rain? And healing waters at that? Would that be the reason Jimba/Wyatt sealed his True Water Rune? I see why he would, of course, what with the Howling Voice Guild after him, but couldn't he have run off with it like Geddoe had all this time...? Could it be because Wyatt/Jimba was emotional (unlike Geddoe, perhaps) and couldn't restrain his emotions/True Rune as well as Geddoe could? I mean, if it started raining a lot in Grassland (it doesn't look like it rains a lot there...), I understand how Harmonia would notice. And then, of course, if I were him, I wouldn't camp out in the Grasslands... I'd run away to somewhere far away and safe, like, the Island Nations.... But anyway... yeah.

Thoughts please, nya~!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Also, that made me wonder - if True Runes (let's just look at the True Runes for now) are affected by its bearers emotions - and we know what happened to the Fire Champion - does that mean, say, the True Water Rune bearer was upset, it would rain?


Speaking just about this small chunk of your essay, True Runes are sentinent beings in themselves and exert their will over their hosts. At the same time, it has proven possible that True Rune Bearers, over time, can "master" True Runes, as was the case with Sierra and her Blue Moon Rune. I think you're on the right path here, but are thinking about it in the wrong way. If a True Rune Bearer was upset, they no doubt would have less control over their True Rune, which would result in it being able to further enforce its own will--a good example of this is the Queen Arshtat and the Sun Rune. The Sun Rune only seemed to completely dominate Arshtat when she was made to be upset, defensive, annoyed, etc.

So, I do think it is definitely possible that when a True Rune Bearer is in some intense emotional state, a True Rune might be able to further exert its will--whatever that may be.

Quote:

can we assume that True Elemntal Runes, for example, literally grant its bearers near-ultimate control of their element?


The person you speak of had his soul bound with the True Wind Rune since birth, and as such he had a certain level of mastery over it. I don't think Chris, for example, would be able to do this because she wouldn't have had the rune long enough. The True Wind Rune bearer is a unique case, so its hard to compare him to others. Also, the manga isn't technically canon, but I can see your point and agree with it insofar as it is possible that a True Rune Bearer, given time, can have that level of mastery over a True Rune.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmm, this is an interesting but difficult topic. To be really honest, I simply don't have any idea how True Runes would be used outside the gameplay element.

The elemental true rune can be easier since we can probably talk about how Luc controlled a bit of wind/air in that particular scene. Or maybe assume that Wyatt can somewhat control water. Sure. But how about the other True Runes? Souleater Rune is also known as Rune of Life and Death. But doesn't look like Ted and Tir can just think about it and kill someone as easily as that. Then the Sun Rune, it has gigantic power for sure, it can destroy and stuff, but can it do anything else other than causing damage?

But okay, let's ignore the non-elemental True Runes for the time being and talk about the elemental ones instead, so that we can discuss along with your initial topic. Personally, I think the bearer can somewhat control the element accordingly, but not in a sense that it's as easy as we might think. I think the bearer must have enough energy to do that, and also 'approved' by the True Rune, and vice versa (as in, the True Rune can't act on its own without the bearer's "approval")

So going back to the "will it rain if Wyatt is emotional?" topic, I don't believe that it will. First of all, rain is a big thing. It's not just water out of nowhere being poured from the sky to the land. So I doubt that simple thing like emotion would easily create rain. However, maybe if Wyatt was really really really really emotional and put all his thought to it, then maybe rain will come. But obviously this would come with heavy price of most likely either going insane or just run out of energy that would take a long time to recover.

On the flip side though, I do think that Wyatt would be able to control water in a small scale with little to no effort. For example, say he's taking a bath. I'd say that he can make the water move around or whatnot based on his desire.

But yeah .. I'm just totally guessing on all of the above anyways. It's nothing conclusive and whatnot. I simply don't know hee hee.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Speaking just about this small chunk of your essay, True Runes are sentinent beings in themselves and exert their will over their hosts. At the same time, it has proven possible that True Rune Bearers, over time, can "master" True Runes, as was the case with Sierra and her Blue Moon Rune. I think you're on the right path here, but are thinking about it in the wrong way. If a True Rune Bearer was upset, they no doubt would have less control over their True Rune, which would result in it being able to further enforce its own will--a good example of this is the Queen Arshtat and the Sun Rune. The Sun Rune only seemed to completely dominate Arshtat when she was made to be upset, defensive, annoyed, etc.

So, I do think it is definitely possible that when a True Rune Bearer is in some intense emotional state, a True Rune might be able to further exert its will--whatever that may be.


I think I see it now. So the consequences of, well, being emotional while armed with a True Rune would not be the result of the bearer itself, but the True Rune finding a gap in the bearer's control and using that as a means to manifest itself... either by exerting its will or actively aiding the bearer. That makes me think, for example, when the Fire Champion was possibly greatly upset upon seeing Harmonia's troops overcome the Grassland troupes, he lost it... and the True Fire Rune decided to help him?

:? That makes me think of something, though at the moment it's not clicking... yet...

Quote:

On the flip side though, I do think that Wyatt would be able to control water in a small scale with little to no effort. For example, say he's taking a bath. I'd say that he can make the water move around or whatnot based on his desire.


A question on this! :? So does this mean, in a 'real life' setting of the Suikoverse, the gameplay effects like say Breath of Ice or the oh-so-powerful-Hammer of Raijin don't really happen...? Can't happen?

Now that I get on that... it makes me think if the True Runes are possibly powerful by default with the rune bearers, and they can dish out the same devastating power as, say, Luc could with his True Wind Rune, but at the same time they would have to acknowledge the consequences. It's like, well, how you put it - You imagine Wyatt in the bath being able to control water on a small scale... But with the True Water Rune, shouldn't he be capable of doing more? So, I was thinking, how about we word it this way -- Wyatt can control water on a small scale safely. If he tries harder or wants to try more, he'll probably end up wrecking his bathub and his rubber duckies :twisted:

Just thinking anyway... maybe it's control that really makes a difference.
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AA

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

An interesting topic, i think Zonder hit it on the head, it is the rune that normally takes control when the bearer is being over emotional, so if the rune wishes for it to rain it will most likely happen when the bearer is in an emotional state.

Though i don't think it is just True Runes that have a "real life" use, look at Sialeeds, she was able to utilise her wind rune to make sneaky exits etc.

I just think we have to look past gameplay mechanics for battles and look at it in a different light.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Puu wrote:
A question on this! :? So does this mean, in a 'real life' setting of the Suikoverse, the gameplay effects like say Breath of Ice or the oh-so-powerful-Hammer of Raijin don't really happen...? Can't happen?

I think it can happen in the real-life setting. However, it would depend mostly on the magical ability of the person. Spell like Breath of Ice can be done merely by using Water Rune. So obviously *anyone* who can equip Water Rune *can* use Breath of Ice. But at the same time, I don't think the Breath of Ice done by a 10 year old boy would be the same as Breath of Ice done by Wyatt.

So in my opinion, spells can definitely happen. However, I don't think that the strong ones are easy to do. Maybe perhaps an analogy is like magician in our real life. Some magicians can levitate (David Blaine), but others can fly (Criss Angel), and most can't even levitate or fly at all. Therefore, I think to pull out a really strong spell like Hammer of Raijin would take someone with really high magical ability.


Puu wrote:
Now that I get on that... it makes me think if the True Runes are possibly powerful by default with the rune bearers, and they can dish out the same devastating power as, say, Luc could with his True Wind Rune, but at the same time they would have to acknowledge the consequences. It's like, well, how you put it - You imagine Wyatt in the bath being able to control water on a small scale... But with the True Water Rune, shouldn't he be capable of doing more? So, I was thinking, how about we word it this way -- Wyatt can control water on a small scale safely. If he tries harder or wants to try more, he'll probably end up wrecking his bathub and his rubber duckies :twisted:

Well I did mention that I think Wyatt can create rain if he really tries very hard. So I do agree that controlling water in the bathtub is definitely done safely (as in "it takes minimal energy and level of concentration"). And at the same time, if Wyatt wants to push all the way and give all he got, then obviously he should be able to do something more (e.g.: creating rain).

A simple example might be controlling water in a pond. With minimal energy and concentration, Wyatt maybe can control the water to shape like stick-figure-like human. But with more energy and concentration, Wyatt maybe can make that human-like shape to be more detailed (e.g.: making the shape to be like a woman). With even more energy and concentration, maybe the woman-like shape can be even more detailed (e.g.: long curly hair) and so on until very detailed.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Luc is a special case, demonstrating his superiority with the True Wind Rune over other True Rune bearers many times in the series, if he can do something special then it's likely most others cannot.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think the key word here is "mastery." Mastery over true rune is how one determines his/her strength with a given rune. Let's take Luc for example. Seeing as he could choke Wyatt using his true rune, it may imply that he has already mastered all there is with his rune, and can command it in any way he wants to. I guess what I mean is that all the effects of these runes (and true runes included) are just determined on a person's magical ability, and his compatibility with the rune.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't know if I'm missing the point completely when I try to say this....

But I always viewed the runes as a sense of giving up a part of yourself in exchange for it's power...Maybe...to actually "master" a rune is to minimize what you are giving up in exchange for the rune to perform something. And perhaps to be able to use a rune for anything outside of 'spells' in battle you would need to give up a specific amount of something...meaning a more complicated formula-which would explain mastery over a rune's power outside of blasting it at a certain object, etc is much much more difficult.

But that is in terms of rune. Now in terms of True Runes- as mentioned before the True Runes have a sort of "a mind of their own". The have tons more power and are much more tied to nature (they are partly what formed the basis of the Suikoverse afterall). The difficulty of mastering a True rune comes from the fact that they're more powerful and the basic formula for mastering them is greatly distorted in comparison to regular runes.
Then put on top of that the fact that there seemingly is a "soul" in each True rune that is sensitive to a person's feelings and weaknesses and if it's just confusing or doesn't match with the True Rune's..."mood"...shall we call it....The True Rune can go out of control....

So to truly master a True Rune you must truly understand (at least in a subconscious way) this "soul" in the True Rune and get this "exchange formula" right to really master it to the point of using it to do simple things...Both of which are much harder with True Runes because it seems they are more "alive" and their "moods" (which then in turn can change the "exchange formula") can change drastically

um...well...that's my thoughts...... :?
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Hmm, this is an interesting but difficult topic.

Indeed. I'm going to need alot more time than I have right now to put as much as I want into this.

Quote:

So going back to the "will it rain if Wyatt is emotional?" topic, I don't believe that it will. First of all, rain is a big thing. It's not just water out of nowhere being poured from the sky to the land. So I doubt that simple thing like emotion would easily create rain. However, maybe if Wyatt was really really really really emotional and put all his thought to it, then maybe rain will come. But obviously this would come with heavy price of most likely either going insane or just run out of energy that would take a long time to recover.

Even in the game though, "Kindness Rain" is the first level of the True Water Rune. Though it is indeed unrealistic to think that true rune users are limited to just four spells that they can cast, they could be considered thresholds. In other words, since I don't remember all the stages of the Water Rune, the True Fire Rune bearer could cause an explosion with the least amount of his power, and summon a huge friggin dragon of fire with the most of his power (before overexherting himself.) So a bit of rain would not be a challenge for Wyatt, but a flood for example would require alot of his power.

And... waaaait a minute...

Quote:

Luc uses the True Wind Rune to alter the pressure within Jimba's body and to choke him, basically

FORCE CHOKE! Luc, I am your father!
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Puu

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
So to truly master a True Rune you must truly understand (at least in a subconscious way) this "soul" in the True Rune and get this "exchange formula" right to really master it to the point of using it to do simple things...Both of which are much harder with True Runes because it seems they are more "alive" and their "moods" (which then in turn can change the "exchange formula") can change drastically


That reminds me of a post I read somewhere here in the forums, about the True Runes and the bearers merging and becoming, in essence, the True Rune. It would be frightening if that was actually what these True Runes are striving form; finding a perfect vessel to merge and become one with.

Quote:

Even in the game though, "Kindness Rain" is the first level of the True Water Rune. Though it is indeed unrealistic to think that true rune users are limited to just four spells that they can cast, they could be considered thresholds. In other words, since I don't remember all the stages of the Water Rune, the True Fire Rune bearer could cause an explosion with the least amount of his power, and summon a huge friggin dragon of fire with the most of his power (before overexherting himself.) So a bit of rain would not be a challenge for Wyatt, but a flood for example would require alot of his power.


I was thinking of that too, actually. If we lower what you can do with the True Runes then you're basically lowering what normal people can do with the normal runes. Obviously, they can do a good lot already... But perhaps, in terms of the rain, the low level would be just water appearing from nowhere and sprinkling on you, whereas the higher, more powerful, possibly true True Rune!version of Kindness Rain would actually involve the atmosphere being affected... Of course that would take a lot of... circumstances to happen but hey~

Quote:
FORCE CHOKE! Luc, I am your father!


...XD Awesome. Though... *imagines Hikuusak saying that* Mwahahaha.

Oh. On a slightly off-topic note, the other day, I was reading this thread about how easily Luc snuck his way into Hikuusak's good graces. That thread mostly had people mentioning how Luc was such a good sugar-coater... but, somehow, imo, I bet he pitched the idea of collecting the True Runes for Harmonia, and those True Rune vessels (the non-human ones) were actually given to Luc by Hikusaak himself. Luc merely deviated. Though, thinking of that... :? I wonder if Hikuusak had let Luc take Sasarai's rune, or not. I mean, if Hikusaak did, it would imply that the great father wasn't so happy with his happy clone.... but blah, just talking~
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, that's a bit off topic, but Hikusaak has been missing for like 200 years, so he wasnt even there to see his clones fight.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I ran a Suikoden game, In the BESM D20 system, it was not to hard, and it was awefully fun. Runes were built off of Item of power. BESM is a great way to actally look at and examine special powers of items, there are many many attributes, and you can come up with many more. For instance the Soul Eater, I gave it the attrubute to consume others souls, and the True Fire Rune gave the bearer Telekinesis-Fire(Kinda of like Piro's ability in X-men). Yes people did have to chant the names of there spells and craft there own spells though Special Attack. It was a very interesting game, though none of the other players who were playing had actually played Suikoden
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Inko wrote:
I ran a Suikoden game, In the BESM D20 system, it was not to hard, and it was awefully fun. Runes were built off of Item of power. BESM is a great way to actally look at and examine special powers of items, there are many many attributes, and you can come up with many more. For instance the Soul Eater, I gave it the attrubute to consume others souls, and the True Fire Rune gave the bearer Telekinesis-Fire(Kinda of like Piro's ability in X-men). Yes people did have to chant the names of there spells and craft there own spells though Special Attack. It was a very interesting game, though none of the other players who were playing had actually played Suikoden


BESM D20 system? With players never having played Suikoden? *stares because she has no idea*

Anyway, I'm now beginning to think that if, say, the normal runes are already powerful (take the in-game spells... for example) and the True Runes offer those powerful spells and... whatever else, then, being set in the Suikoden world, they must truly be ridiculously overpowered. -_-;

I think I'm beginning to see why, if we imagine the Suikoden games happened in a non RPG-setting and rather a 'real life' retelling... err... then those True Rune bearers wouldn't actually use them a lot. Destruction, wee!

*waits for more speculation*
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

BESM D20- http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/d20/srd/

It is a rather interesting system.
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