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Suikoden VI Villain?
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Suikoden VI Villain? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

One of the reasons why I love Suikoden series is that they have interesting villains who aren't just out there to kill and destroy for no reason. More often than not, the villains aren't really evil either, making us left with some conflicting ideas on whether the villain is right or the hero is right.

So I'm wondering about what you guys want when it comes to villain in Suikoden VI. What kind of villain do you want to see in Suikoden VI? A crazy lunatic who kills everyone? Someone who wants to destroy the world? Someone grey? What makes them grey? Multiple main villains? Or what? Share your ideas with us.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like the multiple main villians idea, like in Suikoden III. You had your crazy lunatic (Yuber), but you also had your grey area villians, who weren't necessarily evil (Luc and Sarah).
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Admiral Ackbar

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

(I apologize if this reply is too long, or goes off-topic. I got quite ahead of myself while typing it. If another mod feels it should be moved, they're free to do so.)

Aurelien wrote:
One of the reasons why I love Suikoden series is that they have interesting villains who aren't just out there to kill and destroy for no reason. More often than not, the villains aren't really evil either, making us left with some conflicting ideas on whether the villain is right or the hero is right.


Uh, have you played Suikoden 4 or Suikoden Tactics? Cray and Iskas weren't in any grey areas at all, they were badly made "eeeeevil" villains. Nor were they interesting, though I guess that's largely a matter of my opinion. Luca Blight was more of a grey character than they were, and he had a habit of chopping heads off and humiliating people before he killed them for no other reason than he liked to do it. Cray (the poor man's Zaj) and Iskas were poorly written in my opinion; Iskas especially, who was so poorly crafted that he's insulting to the series as a whole, a character stain if you will, and I really mean that. Iskas is, as far as I'm concerned, the single worst Suikoden character ever made.

And what about Suikoden 5? The Godwin faction pretty much did evil for no reason at all, other than they were the enemy of the Prince. Alenia and Zahak were good respectable knights up until they betrayed the royal family. Then we suddenly have Zahak setting cities on fire and feeling nothing about it, and the Godwins never punish him for it.

They set a city of their own citizens on fire. Why? They're evil! They try to kill off the Beavers. Why? They're evil of course! They take the dragon-horse knights hostage. Why? They're evil, that's why! They ally with New Armes and Nether Gate, enemies of Falena's people. Why? Evil, hello! Marscarl Godwin plans on flooding the continent by melting a glacier, killing countless Falena citizens and destroying cities. Why? E-V-I-L! They try to kill off the Cave Dwarves. Why? Because the new Suikoden developers seem to think that players will only respond to villains that repeat the classic "cackling villain" mold. If they had handled it in a certain way it would have worked, but Suikoden 5's villains are ineffectual at the only thing they're there for: to get the player motivated to fight them. I'm more annoyed by the Godwins than angry.

And on top of that, the Godwin faction repeatedly makes mistake after mistake, with no strategy at all. They're pretty much the worst government I've ever seen, even worse than the Scarlet Moon Empire after Windy gets to Barbarosa. They go out of their way to mess up. The Godwins are run by tactically-challeneged dolts that somehow managed to perform a coup that the royal family saw coming ahead of time (perhaps this speaks instead to the idiocy of the Falena royal family?).

I'm willing to give Sialeeds some credit, but she was also on the "good guy" side the whole time so she turned out not to be "evil" in the end, all though she seemed "evil" for a while. And even if she were considered a villain, her reasons for betraying the Prince were barely touched upon by the story and left many players confused as to her intentions, even after her death. Many players thought "So...she...betrayed the Prince...to destroy...a dam?" It took me a long time to figure it out to, and when I did, I was left asking "Why didn't they make it more obvious? That's something the player should be told in big bold letters."

To put it bluntly, Suikoden 5 gave me the impression that every Godwin supporter ate infants for dessert, for no other reason than they were the enemies of the game, and therefor had to be mean at all times and never nice to anyone. Not at one point did the Godwins ever seem like they were doing something good or right or just or in some way respectable. In the beginning they seemed interesting as antagonists, but as soon as Princess Lymsleia was captured, they turned into snarling evil-doers and lost the depth they had just started to build up. It's a shame too.

I honestly can't say any villains in Suikoden have ever been interesting to me since Murayama left Suikoden 3. This isn't favoritism or the nostalgia-fueled ramblings of an "old schooler" Suikoden fan. Sure, I think Murayama is the best writer the series has had (and he is), but that's not why I've disliked every villain since. Just because Murayama is the best doesn't mean the others are by default bad. It's just that none of the other writers have made any villains worth caring about or remembering in any positive way. None of the villains from Suikoden 4, Suikoden 5, or Suikoden Tactics have left a strong impression on me (unless you count the brain tumor that Iskas is responsible for starting).

It's because no villain since Suikoden 3 can compare to Luc, Windy, Leon, Jowy, Yuber, Luca, Sarah, Zaj, or Albert. Not even remotely. Not even to Zaj, folks. Not even in Bizarro Suikoden World. I'd rather see Neclord(!) again than another Iskas, Cray, or Godwin, and that's the honest truth.

I'm not saying evil characters are unwlecome, or that they are absent from the first games. Yuber was a sick guy. He got enjoyment out of massacres and is resonsible for unknown levels of destruction and death. Luca Blight was also evil, to a degree no single Suikoden character has reached since. Luca Blight pretty much redefined the word 'evil'. But underneath all of the "die maggot!" and the "die pig!" scenes, you get the impression that deep down inside, both of them realized what they were. And that's what made them more than what they first appeared to be: the realization, acceptance, and embracing of what they had become and what they were. You got the impression that there was more to them than what they first appeared to be. It's what made them as three-dimensional as they possibly could be. And its what makes them different (and better) than the villains of the recent games, who are evil for no other reason than the writers feel that every enemy has to be, and who lack any depth beyond first impressions. An evil Suikoden character isn't a bad Suikoden character, so long as that character exhibits some depth and is interesting. Graham Cray for example. We get tiny snippets of his background at the end of Suikoden 4 (which is when we first meet him, I should point out) but it's not enough to justify what my entire army went through getting to him. I have a hard time buying Graham Cray.

I'll be willing to give you Neclord though; his entire purpose in Suikoden was to serve as a catalyst for expanding Viktor's background (and probably just to include a vampire, since every JRPG at the time seemed to have one). Yet even though Neclord was the worst villain in the first three games, Murayama made him shine in other ways through his superior story and script. Two scenes in particular: the scene where Neclord conjures a double of Daisy and Viktor cuts her down, and the scene were Viktor distracts Neclord while Kahn sets up his barrier. Both were very memorable. But how many memorable villain scenes (or just memorable villains) are there in the recent Suikodens? While playing Suikoden 5, I often found myself forgetting what I had just done in the story. The villains were predictable and boring. Murayama took a wildly one-dimensional snarling villain (a vampire even!) and made him worth having on the screen for a while, and made him memorable. That's why Neclord worked.

For Suikoden 6, I want to see the enemy government/nation/whatever not actually be full of evil, cackling, snarling, child-slayers by default. Just because a character or nation is the enemy, doesn't mean they have to be evil, and games like Suikoden 2 and 3 really exemplified this. Jowy and Luc couldn't be any more "grey" (to use that word I hate) than they were in those games. Those games not only presented those two characters as normally decent guys, but they gave them good development and justification for their actions.

I want Suikoden 6's villains to have personality. I want them to have fears and insecurities. I want them to be conflicted. I want them to be memorable. I want them to have a direct protagonist/antagonist relationship with the hero and his allies. I want them to be likeable and charismatic. I want them to be an ever-present danger that isn't going to fold over and lose every time the hero marches his troops forward. I want them to have a lot of dialogue with the hero and his allies, so they don't feel distant and non-existant. I want them to have justification for what they are doing. I want them to appear more in the storyline, reminding me that they're a threat. I want them to be enjoyable, so their presence in the game isn't an annoyance. I want to know what their reasons are. I want to know that what they do is what they belief to be the best course of action. I want to know that they believe in what they're doing with the same strength and convistion that the hero possesses. I want them to have depth.

Is that really too much to ask for?
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Blue Thunder, I'll give you short reply for you to calm down. I never said that all of the villains are like that. Thank you. It'd be appreciated if you don't turn this thread into a rant about previous villains when this thread hasn't even really started yet. I'd be gutted if people now would respond to that rant instead.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd rather see someone who has a very deep meaning inthe plot who you wouldn't expect to be a villain. For instance, no one was expecting Luc to be the villain in suikoden III, and he had a very important part in the series for the previous games.

I wouldn't like to see the oh-so obvious baddies. I'd like to see a deeper meaning than "I want to rule the world". And I'd like to see more than one major villain.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Keeping in tone with the "shades of gray" aspect of villains Suikoden gives us, I'd like to see the following implemented in future games. That's not to say that I want them all in the next game, but spreading them around future installments are preferable.

I want to see a male or female villain that's a leader of some sort. However, thanks to policies within their group, they are forced to act upon issues they are heavily against. Something like Barbarossa who was blinded by his infatuation with Windy that he basically let his Empire crumble.

We also need the shallow villains where they do certain things because they want to be famous, well known, feared, etc.

And then there are people like Albert Silverberg who are exactly like that, but operate in more subtle methods. Characters like that add additional depth to the plot and they have the potentially to become one of the biggest baddies because they operate without anyone knowing them.

We can add the misguided rulers that are against tradition; therefore, they continue conflicts regardless of the fact they can't remember why.

Sometimes, a comic relief baddie is necessary, although I'm not so sure that would go well in the plot aside from the beginning of the game.

You have to have a traitor of some sorts. Not everyone who joins you is trustworthy.

When done in context, crazy villains like Luca Blight and Kefka from Final Fantasy fame actually encourage the player to play the game further, just so they can beat this bad guy. If done incorrectly, you get Childerich. You have to be careful to make it realistic in Suikoden' world and back it up with substance.

I'd like to see older villains that could pass for grandparents. I don't want them feeble either. They need to be worthy in battle. Han Cunningham is currently the only "old" person I can think of that actually demonstrated an ability to fight. And storyline-wise he was a worthy general in the battlefield and duel. Colton and Mascarl were more political in terms of their skill.

And this wouldn't be an RPG without a pretty boy and/or pretty girl villain somewhere in the plot for no other reason than eye candy and to give us different looks for enemies. Sialeeds, Alenia, Sarah, Lucia, and Windy are some examples of the girls. Jowy, Luc, Sasarai, and Troy are some examples of the guys.



Anything on that list is suitable for me. But as I said before, they have to play their parts effectively in order for them to be good enemies.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Any villain would be fine for me, as long as he/she has a reason for being a villain. I truly hate it when villains pop out of nowhere, start doing evil stuff, and say that it's because he wants to rule the world. I've hated that kind of reasoning, since it has become overused in many games, movies, stories and the like. But I think I won't have to worry about this when it comes to Suikoden. It has been proven to me time and again that Konami could provide good villains. Although they have messed up sometimes, I still have faith in Konami that they wouldn't drop the ball in Suikoden VI.

I suppose I'd just leave it up to Konami on how they would develop Suikoden VI's main villain. I'd rather not spoil the surprise for myself, although a few villain types come into mind.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd like a villain that makes you think you'll never win, like Luca Blight and to a smaller extent, Troy. I think all the other villains Suikoden has seen have been so weak and stupid, it's honestly a slap to the face to complete the game and then trying to convince yourself it was a challenge. Honestly, Luca Blight made the player feel a bit threatened, and for a moment you actually thought that this guy would never die! You knew that Suikoden the game would be completed, but you had doubts as to whether Luca would just completely kill everyone to get there.

Please don't give us a dumb enemy, I hope Albert Silverberg is involved for the enemy, I don't want to see some afficianado tactictions (The Godwins) appear to get their ass kicked and then just as easily dissapear again.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would like to see an enemy that is somewhat like Jowy, I suppose.
I don't need a maniac as enemy, because although I might feel the urge to stop him in order to safe innocent people, I assume that no real feeling aside from loathe for the villain will be created.
If the enemy is not necessarily within your own nation, but an intruder, I can think of more interessting stuff. As we know from the games (and from history up to a certain point) citizen of countries may feel hate towards eachother, although it is irrational from economic and social points of view (which war is mostly anyway).

I would like to have two fighting countries which can't stop, although their leaders could agree on peace, but the people can't. That sounds like a repition, but with the right, rational, interesting and charming characters on both sides it could be possible. This way it could be part of the game to search for other solutions than only destroying the enemy...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

do 'double personality villain' still famous??

i like the villain is the hero... he has double personality and yhe hero will catchs his tail...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I suppose Gizel Godwin was good in that regard of pretending to be a friend then becoming the enemy, it's just he sucked at being an enemy, and was perhaps too good of a friend.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I actually don't like the idea of another Luca Blight. We don't need another "HAHA I PWN JOO ALL CUZ IM STRONG" villain. :P

I'd like the Gizel-types, actually. He actually seemed to be a good guy until you start piecing stuff together and all that and realize that he's bad. Strategist enemies too, I like enemies who can think of ways to make life difficult for you.

In terms of comic relief, just bring Euram Barows back. There.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Since I am a Godwin myself, I like them and think they are fine as enemies. Gizel wasn't that bad, although I despise their hatred for other races. Racism is so stupid and I was annoyed that the Godwins planned to kill beavers and dwarves only because they are no human beings...

L'Renouille, I suppose your idea wouldn't work, since he hero is the tenkai and can't therefore be the villain. Aside from that I assume that the game wouldn't that funny, because the fight would rather be an inner one than a real battle, because you won't lead army at the same time with two personalities. If it could be done like Fight Club the story would perhaps be a cool story element, although it will probably not be a good Suikoden game.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A character such as Zerase would be an excellent villan for Suikoden 6. This would be a good idea as we do not know much about Zerase and what her real intentions were in Suikoden 5. She would be a perfect "grey area'' villan cause we do not know what her intentions are, what she is going to do and why.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree, Assassin. I could see Zerase working quite well as an antagonist... she wasn't exactly friendly in Suikoden V, afterall. Hell, she was downright self-serving and hostile on more than a few occasions (remind you of anyone from earlier in the series?) Not only would a villian position finally give her character something more than a vaguely-defined reason for existing, but it would likely make more important characters out of Jeane and Leknaat just by association. Lots of nice opportunities for exploration there.
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