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St. Ajora
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 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Because the church isn't being pressured into making a public stance on the issue because to the general public, it is a moot point. Before the issue of homosexual marriage was a national issue, the church didn't say anything about it because they were focused on other things. When asked to make a stance, they did and have been expected not to disregard the matter since it's causing such a stir. Despite itself, the church is often caught in politics because the two are similar and mix. This is the case with some issues and it's not all the churches cause. They could choose not to respond but they have a responsibility to address what they've been drawn into.
Churches do advise abstinance until marriage. It's not as if they completely disregard the issue all together.
Hopefully this addressed your concern to satisfaction |
It makes sense Acheron, thanks for that! Although I don't agree with it, I understand the mentality/movement behind it, or understand your perspective on it at least.
| Kuu wrote: |
| what about infertile people? they shold be celibite? I guess so. Humans are of those beings that use sex for communications and fun, like dolphins and chimps. |
I guess some sects/churches/whatever don't recognize that all humans are inherently sexual beings and that it's not something you can just ignore. |
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Rune of Corruption
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:59 am Post subject: |
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This is why I question religion all religion. To me, if you accept religion to an absolute standard you end up denying reality. Why can't two men who love each other( Hopefully) get married? Because God said so, then why did he make homosexuality possible. Some try to blame it on Satan, but in reality God made him also God made all other things good or bad. To me that seems like God set us up for a fall and will send us to Hell for something he made possible.
In my opinion people will continue to change religion as a whole. Because that what has been happening all along. Jesus brought about the New Testament which was drastically different from the Old Testament. Then after Jesus' death Catholicism came about. Then a King broke from it to form yet another change where divorce was okay. According to the New Testament and the Catholic Church it a sin, but it did not stop or did it stop the Crusades killing is wrong in both the Old and New Testaments, but it was okay when they did it in the name of the Lord. After a while Martin Luther came along and pointed out what was wrong with the Catholic Church with the greediness and all. Then Protestants started to catch on and then some managed to make it to the New World. Where apparently most religions are welcome. Then Prostestans started fragmenting to practice Christianity in their own way and all of that leads up to today.
We deal with new issues today. Well these issues has always existed, but never dealt with. For example, Now you see a lot of women preachers in most forms of Christianity. However, in the Bible, in the New Testament, it says that women should not speak in church. They should direct any concerns they have to their husbands at home. Also it is said in the Bible that women cannot teach men, mainly because it was a woman who was first tempted. Yet these women now claim to be christian and yet how can they when they are sinning? Other issues that are wrong in Gods eyes( if taken literally) such as homosexuality is seen in different lights now. Most likely a person suspected of homosexuality was killed back in the day.
With all this evidence, I think that religion should be taken with a grain of salt. It is constantly changing and in about 100 years no telling what will be sin and what isn't. This all my opinion by the way.
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Calvin
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: |
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This is why I question religion all religion. To me, if you accept religion to an absolute standard you end up denying reality. Why can't two men who love each other( Hopefully) get married? Because God said so, then why did he make homosexuality possible. Some try to blame it on Satan, but in reality God made him also God made all other things good or bad. To me that seems like God set us up for a fall and will send us to Hell for something he made possible.
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Despite knowing very little about religion, I do believe God gave us free will, according to the bible. He doesn't make us do anything--we have the choice. Therefore, acts done by human hands have only those said hands to blame.
That said I am not religous. I cannot bring myself to have such faith to wholly believe in something like the idea of God, but at the same time, I find it hard to summarily deny His existence. I suppose you would call that being agnostic. In fact, I find trying to prove or disprove the existence of God, or change somebodies mind about it, is a hopeless endeavor. I've personally opted to not think about the issue, and let the chips fall where they may.
I don't think religion should be taken with a grain of salt. While you may or may not believe in any particular religion, it is undeniable that religion has had a major impact on the shaping of civilization. How can you minimalize something that has been so intwined with human history? I think religion must always be considered, and never dismissed.
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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while we're only tacking homosexuality, I'd like to indruduce the concept that
some belive that the reason socity is degrading because prayer is being taken out of schools and that kids are being taught that they are from monkies. THUS don't need to have morals, or act good, they can kill whomever they want and steal what ever they wish.
This cannot be true. I don't think highly about people in the first place, but I still think people can be taught to, or just respect life and rules without 'god in the question'
I mean, i'm sure some die-hard christains have embezzeled money right? and some sport hunters, I"m sure pray to god "that I shoot that lion".
But no, because I didn't pray in school, go to church and wear a cross. I am something horrble. I can swallow that animals and plants changed over time and eventualy turn into new things. But that means I'm going to assume there is no reason for morals? That I'm going to go out, throw a baby through a window and steal some electronics?
I just don't know what to think. It sadens me. It hurts others. I just now assume broken fundalmentilsm is "true christanity". Jesus wants everyone to smack roleplayers, and illegalize story books with wizards in it. To run around telling everyone else the're hellbound and misinterpert scientific studyies, call scientists evil/silly for trying to tell people the earth is billions of years old, and not a meer 6,000. In school a student even claimed any humans "past" that 6,000 mark weren't human. just special monkies. I can accept this in terms of Australiaphiticus, but they died out 2 million years or so. Carbon dating is faulty, therefor unrealible. (and thusly nothing can even be 20,000 years old)
Their true has to be our truth and viseversa.
others belive that being pregnent without being married is, worse than abortion. On abortion. some think that if a woman will die in childbirth she shuld. its her time. If a pregnancy would kill her, let it.
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RedCydranth
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kuwaizair wrote: |
| while we're only tacking homosexuality, I'd like to indruduce the concept that some belive that the reason socity is degrading because prayer is being taken out of schools and that kids are being taught that they are from monkies. THUS don't need to have morals, or act good, they can kill whomever they want and steal what ever they wish. |
While I am in favor of saying "under god" and such in the pledge of alleigance, I don't think the removal of public prayer is the direct reason we've seen an increase in crime and sex in the youths. I doubt any kid who brings a gun into school cites being evolved from monkeys made him do it. So yeah, thats silliness.
The removal of Prayer from public schools is an issue that really doesn't need to be talked about here as that goes farther into politics than it does religion itself.
| Kuu wrote: |
| others belive that being pregnent without being married is worse than abortion. On abortion. some think that if a woman will die in childbirth she shuld. its her time. If a pregnancy would kill her, let it. |
In the Church's eyes (well the Catholics at least as that's the one I'm most familiar with) yes, abortion is wrong because the chuch views that as killing. I don't know if the church will say that a pregnacy before marriage is WORSE than abortion though, I've never heard that one. I know the church frowns upon premarital sex but to say its worse isn't quite accurate.
Again though, I think that abortion and women's rights is far too political to be debated about here and if we all jumped on it, this thread could be locked quickly because thats an issue that can get very intense very quickly.
Zonder answered Rune of Corruption pretty well. God's gift to humanity, free will, is what determines our final destination. If we choose to steal, kill and lead an evil life, then we will ultimately end up in hell. This is agreed upon by all Christian religions (except the Mormons, believe it or not. They have no hell, just the lowest part of the Celestial Kingdom)
However its the upside to that argument where there is much room for debate. Entrance to heaven is apparently a very hard thing to obtain, especially if you're in certain sects of christianity. According to one sect you can lead a perfect life, never steal a cent. Always obey the laws. Never engage in gambling, have pre-marital sex or even THINK of sinning and still not gain entrance to heaven because you never took Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and saviour. I find that a hard pill to swallow. Why would a man burn for all eternity in hell when in life he did everything right except acknowledge Jesus? Its these same religions that allow people who routinely steal, perform various acts of adultery (Adu;tery is not just cheating on your wife/husband. Masturbation, pre-marital sex, homosexual acts and any non-vaginal sex can be considered adultry) and sin almost daily into heaven because they acknowledge Jesus as their saviour and confess they are sinners. This is rather backwards to me. Why should those of us who lead good lives burn while those who use Jesus as a scapegoat can get into heaven? Can I accept Jesus as my saviour and then go sin for a week, feel guilty about it and be forgiven and go to heaven? Or is it better for me to not accept Jesus and go on the sinfest at all?
Catholics don't have the "Personal Saviour" line. They don't require you get on your knees and get all John 3:16 and be happy with god. Catholics I think are correct in that manner. We're all on earth's playing field. We're all created by god and we're all judged by him after we die. Its what we do while we're on earth and how we lead our lives that dictate our afterlife, not whether we ask ourselves "WWJD?" every day.
In some of these fundamentalist religions if Hitler, on his dying breath took Jesus into his heart and was truly sorry for his actions, he'd be parading around in heaven. However because Ghandi never took Jesus as his lord and saviour, he's down in Hades with Satan. Dispite all the good he did for the people of India, it was in vain because he didn't acknowledge Jesus as his lord. Doesn't that sound rather wrong to you? That Hitler potentially could be in heaven but Ghandi isn't? Doesn't that seem a bit crazy?
Thats why I take a lot of christian religions with a grain of salt. Common sense does not apply to them.
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| As far as I know, in Catholicism, faith and good works gives one entrance to heaven. Just having faith isn't enough to get you there. You need to do good works. Thus, if a person just uses his faith to justify his wrong action, he would not receive salvation. |
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Yvl
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Firstly, I'd like to mention that I'm still here, I just havent been responding much.
Secondly, the Mormon faith is one that especially confuses me. The end of the bible states that nothing is to be added or removed from the scripture, but the Book of Mormon is exactly that - adding to the bible. I could be misinformed though, and if I am, then someone please do correct me.
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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what do people here think of discordianism? or making a religion based off of films, like a Jedi religion or, based off the Matrix?
they -are- out there, trust me. The Matrix ones are a moddy bunch.
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Sparhawk
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:37 am Post subject: |
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It is a work of fiction. I'd rather not grovel at Harrison Ford's feet...Or George Lucas.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:57 am Post subject: |
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I've never heard of discordianism. I'm not sure how on-topic the other part is.
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Yvl wrote: |
| I've never heard of discordianism. I'm not sure how on-topic the other part is. |
the wiki artical says discordianism is "a joke discuised as a religion, and a religion discuised as a joke"
the other part, is a newfangled spiritual belife that has saturatued parts of the internet. to explane "there are people who belive that plot elemets in the Matrix films are true, like how people look for a biblical messia now, these "zionists" are following "Neo's" lead (I quote Neo because the man who says he is neo is a sham but the general idea of these people taking the whole salt shaker, well belive this)
its more of 'wonky spirtuality' than true-blue religion. But they defend belifes much. The Jedi's of (where were they again? the UK or Australia?) are differnt. They aren't emo'ing in blogs because mommy and daddy want to throw them into the nuthouse when they came out as being a character from the Matrix films.
should they be accepted or laughed at?
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Tony Stark
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Moon Knight wrote: |
| In some of these fundamentalist religions if Hitler, on his dying breath took Jesus into his heart and was truly sorry for his actions, he'd be parading around in heaven. |
I see your point, but Hitler would be a hard case to think about, as most Christian sects believe that suicide is a ticket to hell, especially since you cannot ask forgiveness for it until after you're dead.
I think that Christians who are Christians just because they want to get into heaven, are not Christians at all. A real Christian should ensdorse the views of God and Christ, regardless of whether they get into heaven or not. Worrying about heaven or hell just sullies people's view. It also leads to people believing in God out of fear. I think heaven and hell is just something that shouldn't matter much to most people, since everyone disagrees as to what gets you into heaven and no one really knows what will, won't or whatever. The Pope knows just as much about the after-life as I do. People die, that's just how it is, and trying to control where you go in the afterlife is not stupid, but basing your whole faith off of it is.
In Revelations, it said the ones who were not saved, refused to accept God still. One would think if the evidence was as apperant as it was there, that some people would change their minds and bow down asking for forgiveness. What would happen in that case? Would that person still be punished? Or what if a person and hell asked for forgiveness?
I believe in God, but I personally hate the church. I cannot say my hate of the church is pure though, because I've never really thought much about the whole "Jesus is God" thing. It's just something I haven't done in my life that I need to do, and I guess it doesn't really come to you as a thought. Or shouldn't, anyway.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Brecht wrote: |
| I see your point, but Hitler would be a hard case to think about, as most Christian sects believe that suicide is a ticket to hell, especially since you cannot ask forgiveness for it until after you're dead. |
| Brecht wrote: |
Or what if a person and hell asked for forgiveness?
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What confuses me is that to get the idea of "hell", you interprete it as such from the bible. However, it is from this same book that says though that the penalty for sin is death and that once a person dies their sins have been paid or acquitted. So how could a person then 'suffer' for eternity in some place called hell (which the concept coinidentally has also origins in ancient Babylonia, Assyrian and Egypt teachings) when death pays for your sins according to the bible? Well, sorry for going off topic with this side track ^^
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Sparhawk
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:04 am Post subject: |
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What is wrong with leading a happy life without commiting crimes against others? Is that not acceptable to most religions?
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:10 am Post subject: |
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What is wrong with leading a happy life without commiting crimes against others? Is that not acceptable to most religions?
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Alot of them want your money as well, unfortunately.
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