Taking religon with a grain of salt

[Yvl]

I am agnostic, and I bear no ill will to any religon. That being said, some of the things that come out of the mouths of those who ARE religon tend to disgust me to the point I don't want any part of it.

There are some aspects of each religon which simply do not coincide with modern discoveries, or damage the peace that religon tends to want to protect.

The bible, for example (since it is the only example I am at all knowledgable about) is supposedly "the word of God." However, in the bible, it says that mankind is imperfect. The Bible was written by human hands, and if humans are imperfect as the bible says, there is bound to be a mistake here or there, especially with all the revisions it has gone through over time. The same can probably be applied to other religous texts - all were written by human hands (and even prophets are human in some form, if Muhammad wrote the Quran, which is apparantly debatable) and are thus prone to errors.

Mankind did not know of the kinds of scientific advances that we would be discovering today, so even with inspiration from God Himself, the writers of religous texts only could write what they were aware of, or as was regarded as fact all those years ago.

Far too many people try to refute what has been scientifically proven (or demonstrated to the point that it is virtually impossible to refute) based on the fact that something someone wrote thousands of years ago says otherwise.

Again, I do not mean to offend anyone, but it is true that God Himself did not write any of these books with His own hand. It is only my intention to get any who might be clinging too strongly to the words of their god to question the validity of the translators and question everything. Do not let a mistake that could be as minor as a typo from hundreds or thousands of years ago misguide you.
_________________

[Firefly]

I agree. That reminds me, I found a link to a mildly amusing animation about how some people interpret everything in the Bible as fact, when obviously everything that is printed in the Bible is not 100% correct. (I think it's one thing for someone to be Christian, but it's ridiculous to believe every word of the bible, like Adam and Eve and Eden and the Great Flood and all that). I'm not sure if I found the link on these message boards, so if I'm posting it again, forgive me:

http://atheistdelusion.cf.huffingtonpost.com/
_________________

[Sophita]

Well, I'm an athiest myself, so you're hardly ruffling my feathers, but I think it's important to note that those who think the bible is literally true are fundamentalists who are (I believe) a minority of Christians (or any other religion).

The problem is, of course, fundamentalism seems to be growing. :/ Or maybe it's just getting louder....? Or maybe I'm just noticing it more.
_________________

SCII month continues! DueFiumi.com

John Layfield wrote:

But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD

[Sai Fujiwara]

I think people should think for themselves... God gave man free will according to the Bible, so any Christian ought to be aware of that.

However, from my standpoint Yvl, it just looks like you're trying to discredit religion. Something that doesn't exactly sit well with me, but I'm not going to attack you for it, because I'm just assuming your intent here and could be mistaken. Also, attacking you wouldn't accomplish anything, anyway. :P

I just want to point out that people should think for themselves, not based on what you, I or any texts might say. People should read and interpret the texts for themselves, not simply discard and discredit them.
_________________


Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D

[Leb]

Fundamentalists of any religion tend to appear inflammatory and even come off as bit pretentious to more liberal interpreters of religious doctrine (which make up the majority). I'm agnostic, but I'm really interested in many aspects of religion and tend to shy away from hardcore atheists and even "passionate agnostics". hey oxymoron

The problem is that a lot of those people tend to view religion as useless and a great evil, as if war and death would go away if we all embraced a super-secular view. Religious motivations would go away of course, but that is such a ridiculously minor issue outside of small-scale incidents.

[Artificity]

Organized Religion or even the concepts of higher beings hold very little merit for me outside of functioning as an artistic muse. The biggest problem with it is the fact that it more often than not it will outweigh rational thinking yet will be forgiven by the majority of the public because 'we are entitled to our beliefs'. This in itself annoys me because it doesn't give me the same right to believe that C3PO told me to build an altar to him and sacrifice lambs simply because I am not following a religion. The reason why I would build and sacrifice would be practically the same but since I am not recognized, I am considered 'a whackjob' instead of 'a devout and faithful follower of my religious sect'.

If it is not rooted in obvious and/or scientific truth, then it is not worth thinking about. I simply choose to take a nihilistic point of view when it comes to anything even remotely related to religion and the supernatural.
_________________

[Malt Hitman]

One of the problems with people taking a gain of salt with their religious views is that usually those religious views are presented as rules to follow and not as suggestions for better living with your neighbor. If you look at a religious text as the absolute word of righteousness then you're pretty much hard up to interpret what is written there.

After all, it's hard to take a grain of salt with something called a commandment that specifically says that you shouldn't kill. Someone is giving a command and you are expected to obey it. That doesn't give the reader a lot of leeway in the matter.

It's my view that most religions were created in a time of lawlessness and so they tried to present laws for people to live better lives by. Most people won't just listen to suggestions unless there's something very appealing there for them to reap as a reward. If you have a law with a clear punishment in store for those who would break the law then you create incentive for people to follow your law. Adding a reward when that law is successfully followed sweetens the deal.

Unfortunately getting that detailed usually means that the law becomes inflexible. This then leads to stagnation the longer the law is in effect. Refuting the laws of righteousness that have been carried down from generation to generation becomes a battle itself and the outcome really hinges on each successive generation that comes along. So then that grain of salt could become completely ineffective or simply won't be used.

I guess those are just my thoughts on the matter.

[Yvl]

Sai Fujiwara, and everyone else who mentioned as such, I'm not trying to discredit religons, I'm simply saying that people make mistakes, even when interpreting God. Yeah, this is directed at fundamentalists or those who know fundamentalists.

I'm really only targeting this at the kinds of aspects of the religous writings that have been more or less refuted by now. If anything, I'm trying to reinforce religon: Just because science has proved it wrong doesn't mean that the whole book is wrong or something.
_________________

[Filipe]

Being a Christian myself, I (likely surprisingly to some) find the whole fundamentalist mentality to be the single most rediculous thing I have ever heard. I have always been taught even by the pastor of my church that it is our duty as believers to question what we read in the bible all the time. They are messages and guidelines with which to lead a good life so according to our beliefs we would go to heaven when we die if we repent our sins etc. Only those who take the ultimate extreme with their beliefs thinking that the entire bible is word for word taken from god fall into this category. By the more laid back members of the church, or those more willing to consider more open views they are at times considered in other words "whack jobs". It would not be the first time I have heard fellow christians talking about how they had been approached by "bible thumpers" as I used to call them. Even people knowing they were already christians were trying to force their views of how the religion should be upon others. They even tried with me more than once, and really I was more than happy to close the door in their face. I can assure you that at least in Canada a lot of these people even by those who share their religion look at them with disdain.

For the sake of argument, we also have to remember the fact that scientists have also not proven anything either. Human error is just as likely and common in those situations as in when the bible or other religious text is being interpreted. Tests are wrong, and by nature are not 100% accurate by any means, and if anything they would be in the category of educated best guesses, and possible explanations. Thats not to say they arent quite plausible in some cases, but to say that they have actually proven anything to be the truth, or anything to be a lie or false is stretching it just a tad. It's all a matter of personal opinion in the end if you want to believe the scientists or religion in your everyday life, however you have to admit that you cant really rely on either for the be all end all truth.

Now I can also say just for the record, even though I am a Christian I am in no way shape or form personally offended by anything that was said thus far.
_________________

[Yvl]

[RedCydranth]

Disclaimer: I am not offended by anything in this thread, nor is it my intention to offend anyone with what I have to say.

I am a Christian. Born, baptized and raised a Roman Catholic, but then became Born again, only to realize iFundamentalism is more a cult than a religion so now I am just plain old Christian.

During my years of Catholicism and Born Agin Fundamentalism, I often raised the same questions you did Yvl. As a Catholic, I was told it is not okay to question the Lord's word, but to accept it as truth. However I could not grasp several things the Catholics beleived in, like placing Mary on the pedastal she is placed. Half of my church growing up was devoted to Mary. Blue candles and statues of the Blessed Mother were all over. The Stained glass windows portrayed her as some sort of heavenly lady. We even said Hail Mary during church service just as often as Our Father and the Act of Contrition. I questioned how saying a few poems could salvate my soul of my sins. I asked about the Bible and I could never get straight answers other than "That's just how it is. Have faith."

For me I couldn't have faith blindly, it seemed idiotic. Why put faith in something that hasn't been seen in over 2000 years? It was because of my questions I was led into the Born Again faith. They gave me answers where the Catholics could not.

Yvl, the answer I am about to give is not what I personally beleive, however it is the answer I was given when asking the same things to a Pastor. While it is true that man is flawed and there are bound to be flaws in all that man does, the Bible is not a work of man, but a work of God. Those who originally wrote it, Paul, Peter etc wrote it under the influence of God himself. God would not allow his word to be written falsly and send across the lands as such. Through all the revisions, God's word remains pure because we know god would not allow impurities in his word.

If you are a Mormon, this is even moreso true. They beleive that Jospeh Smith was guided by God himself to translate the tablets which only he was given the power to read. He then verbally said what they inscribed to Martin Harris who wrote it all down and this became the Book of Mormon (Mormon being the one who wrote the tablets originally after Jesus came to America and told him to do so)

However I find, personally, all religions to be evil, but the essense of spirituality to be good. When i read the Bible, I do read it with a grain of salt. Fundamentalists seem to take the Bible quite verbatim and because of this I scoff. I'll point out a few of the things I didn't like about Fundamentalists. I personally think Homosexualtiy is not wrong as its part of who some people are and they should not be codemned for bing who they are.

Christians seem to think Homosexuality is wrong though, and according to the bible it is. Look at Leviticus 18:22. Its clear as day.

[Timbo]

Science isn't really contradictory to religion in most aspects. I don't really understand why people assume that is does.

Science relies on empirical data to create mathematical models of existence. This can make educated guesses theat are verifiable in experiments. If you are defining 'truth' as 100% certainty. Science cannot do this, but neither can any thing else, unles is has been specifically defined as such. Such as the statemnt 'Red is a color", is 100% certain because humans have defined a concept of 'red', of 'is', of 'a' and of 'color'.

[Username]

The truth is we made religion as a way to fill the gaps of what we didn't know and provide laws and standers. We could prove every religion wrong if we had enough time, but we don't. Religion is like Santa Claus; Fake but gives us hope and the ideals of sharing and kindness. Some of those ideals no longer fit the current mold and that causes problems. Religion has problems and the people who worship have problems, some greater than others. "Every invention will be used for evil." And Religion is one of the most abused out there. Blame the player, not the game.

What's past death? Nothing? Something? That something isn't something we already known of that's for sure. Believing in something that doesn't exist isn't wrong as what is existence anyway? Even if I prove to you God doesn't exist that doesn't change the fact you believe in them. It's blind faith in someone that can't let you down because you can always blame someone else if something bad happens.

How about instead of taking religion with a grain of salt, we let people decide how much they want to because in the end religion only dictates actions in the short run. In the long run it's people's yearning for convenience, equality, and all that stuff that changes the long run. Bad things happen, but we get over it and move on to more bad things because choosing to kill or persecute in the name of religion isn't a crime. Killing and persecuting others is the crime, religion is just an added detail, a motive and motives are like snowflakes... always different yet similar.

Simply put... EVERYTHING IS FINE THE WAY IT IS NOW. It's not Eden but heck if I'd trade it for something else.
_________________

The pursuit of symmetry... Death The Kid, Patty and Liz.

SSBB Friend Code: Ace / 4339-2163-7352

[kuwaizair]

the good old Hack 'n slash. I feel like my one topic was inspiration to this.

you can find on the net many satire sites that mock fundimentalism, you can find many sites on line that are the reason some are.

The problem aways, it seems in our culture, saying "religion" means the "default Judeo-Christanity", not Nortic or the Achient Egyptian belifes.

What I find intersting and good fooder for writing is how each wave makes old laws negate, times change. Cain could Marry his sister but today everyone says its wrong.

God made animals for our friends but now we can eat him (thus vegans are going aginst god's wishes right?)

Look around and you can find fun thigns, if you also know how to jab people, suprising things come from it! I have learnt that trying to invent a new religion to take out Scientolgy is wrong, I've learnt that writing my own myths, making up my own gods is a sin. But if I were a Christain and wrote christain fantasy tales like "Narnia" and "lord of the rings" its ok.

OH hey you forgot to mention the religion of Evolution and how being tolerant of other's lives is wrong! how those without god are horrbie amoral monsters!

Isn't all in the bible? or has somthing 'good' been raped once more? who'll care? thats how I see the god of blood and sand now.

the whole world is in peral because we don't pray in schools, we teach science, let women have power, tell children snakes are good animals, that plants are alive.
this sounds like snarky slander, but if you've been were I have, you'll learn that T-rex ate plants.

its a proven fact that the universe is 6,000 years old.

there is a whole salt mine for you folks.

*goes back to world building*

people need to sit back and disect everything, view facts and fallices. Sadly a golden age of understanding won't be achived soon. We're people, this is what we do. We wage wars over how one shold live and belive, then turn around and say how we're more than a beast.
_________________
few runes short of a set of 27

[Acheron]

As I view Christianity, it is a revision of Judaism. There is a distinct difference in the Old Testament and the New Testament. I am Protestant so as a part of my faith, I may read and interpret the Word of God for myself, not be told what it means (though I do listen when the preacher tells me his interpretation to see if I can apply some of his thoughts to my own). Moon Knight, you quoted Leviticus a bunch (something that I heard was disallowed in Canada) so I will address your arguments.

Leviticus was written for the People of Levi, a group of priests in the ancient Hebrew people, also called the Levites. To say we should abide by the same regulations as these people is to say should be Levites. Levites were the people who begged the forgiveness of sin for the people before God. Due to biblical definition, sin is the absense of God (as cold is not the iteslf but technically defined as the absense of heat, darkness the absense of light). To be in the presense of God you could not harbor the absense of him, therefore you had to be sinless to be with God. God gave them ways to cleanse their sin so that they could be granted salvation from hell through Sacrifice. Through this we see that Leviticus is used as a teaching tool.

The Old Testament is the old way of getting to heaven. It became high impossible ot fulfill but it worked for that time. The New Testament is the documentation of the life of Christ, who by constant presense of God as he was embodied by the Holy Spirit (God's presense on earth), could be considered without sin. Upon his death, he gave an alternative to the life of a Levite with unnaturally high standards to meet in order to be saved from eternal damnation. By taking the sins of mankind upon his sinless back and by sharing that burden, through acknowledgement and belief, a Christian is granted salvation and allowed into heaven.

The New Testament gives guide lines to help live a better life, a point lost on my peer group who think it is a set of rules and constraints to your individuality and freedom. So, in application, my faith is in the New Testament, the Old Testament is a tool to show where it came from. What it was, and what it is, and how much of a gift it truly is.

Kuwaizer, were you being sarcastic or do you really have such a cynical view on religion?

About Fundamentalist... Yeah, they're loud. I'm a moderate by most standards, liberal to others. Just as the Fundamental Christians get spotlighted, it's the same in other religions too, particularly Islam. They're called extremists to some, but they are just fundamental devout worshippers of Allah.

I'm reminded of an episode of South Park where Cartman goes to the future. Now, I know, South Park, not my best example but bare with me. Religion is gone but theres still war between Atheist sects. War is sometimes caused by religion, but religion doesn't always breed war. It is commonly used as a shield, especially when two cultures of differing religions engage in combat, but the two are independant of one another. You could say economics caused just as many wars as religion, as they are both just as likely causes of war. In the last century more wars were money inspired than religion inspired.

What I'm hearing you say, Yvl, is that most religious texts aren't written by God and are therefore flawed. You go as far as to say that it "disgusts" you that people take it literally. As an agnostic and that you are acknowledging that there could be texts written by God, therefore that God may or may not exist, I will say this. If the Bible, Quran or Torah were drastic misinterpretations of his words, would he allow them to continue to progress through time? I think not. I think, I know that there are depths of meaning and that the Bible (for me) is a living document that is superior to other documents which is why I can place my faith in it. A muslim must feel the same about the Quran, and a jew to the Torah. Our text is our physical connection to God. To say that you find them to be flawed, is fine and it is your opinion to hold. To say