Battle calculation issues

[Noot]

If one of the battles has a [Concluded] tag in it yet the results may be re-calculated, could you put [Under Review] (or something similar) instead? At least that gives us a general idea of where the problem lies. Because to me, [Concluded] means "concluded" and "no more touchy!"

(Obviously you can tell why I'd be interested in this situation.... :| )
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~~Harmonian Tenhei Star~~

It's hard to bargle naudle zauss with all these marbles in my mouth.

[Axiose]

Decado has already listed which battles have been effected. You'll all be informed once they've been re-posted.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Sage]

Will the final couple of battle results be delayed until this is fixed? They aren't affected by this.
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[Axiose]

Yes, and explorations will likely be delayed as well.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Camillus]

Question: Will these three battles be recalculated completely(from turn 1st) or does this glitch show itself only in 3rd turn?
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[Filipe]

I see this as a major problem for all three battles, because if things were screwy for the entire battle, then the results for each turn are flawed. Who is to say what units would have been sent when if the results in each turn were different? I think if the result is drastic enough to change the outcome, why not just make a new battle? Redo the battle with new battle plans, the units have to stay the same and neither side in any of the battles would have an advantage or disadvantage. I dont see how it is unreasonable to not just redo the battles when things are fixed on the calculator. I mean lets use the Harmonia Grasslands battle for example, it wouldnt be fair to Harmonia to change the decision outright because of a problem, because we would lose our capital because of a glitch. Without the glitch plans may have changed round to round, and who knows what the result would then be? On the flip side, who is to say that the Grasslands wouldnt have won if there was no glitch either? Also who says that they would have if the glitch had not been there? The only fair way of doing any of the battles would be to have new plans sent in, per turn and just do that rather than change the outcome.

Thats the only real way to make it fair for all sides of every battle, all sides break even and the battles are run again to find the real result without the glitch.
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[Kalidor]

[Yvl]

Filipe, You don't have anything to worry about, there's obviously no chance that you'll be forced to use the same units as you originally chose. However, the glitch still needs to be fixed before the real battle can be fought.

I do see though that for intelligence reasons, this is a much bigger problem than I had thought. Will you be running turn 1 as it would have been without all the waiting at least though, to save time?
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[Aurelien]

[Yvl]

If that's all correct, BP, then you officially frighten me. Your unit and the intense observations.
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[Timbo]

It may not necessarily be the terrain. Going between areas could also have information regarding the happiness and security of the regions attacked from, which shouldn't be accounted for and can change a lot in terms of damage taken and given.
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"There is no normal life, there's just life. Now get on with it"

[Aurelien]

Timbo, you might be right. However, specifically for the Grasslands vs Harmonia battle (I haven't been paying much attention to the other two affected battles so far), I'm somewhat not convinced whether there will be any changes that would see the reversal of the result. Of course I could be wrong, but allow me to explain.

First of all, we can agree that unless the admins tinker the war calculator mid-phase, the problem should occur on all 3 Turns, and not just Turn 3. And personally, I believe the admins will not tinker the calculator mid-phase as there is no need to change anything mid-phase anyway. So I'll focus on a particular battle between Grasslands and Harmonia, namely the battle in Round 2 of Turn 2 between Vincent Chase and Anthony Misery.

It was a battle between Undead and Crossbowmen, both had no advantage or disadvantage towards one another, and both are Tier 2 units. Both were using the same regiment tactics (Hiding Within The Shell), and both roughly had similar number of soldiers (6,200 vs 7,900) with Vincent Chase being the Nation Leader of Harmonia as the only bonus in play.

Now as we can see, if Vincent was not the Nation Leader, Anthony should've won because of numerical advantage. But because Vincent is indeed the Nation Leader, he got the x2 ATK bonus which gave him just enough margin to win the battle by doing 708 damage compared to Anthony's 421 damage. I don't know about you, but I think the gap between the two (287 damage) seemed to be perfect if attributed to Vincent's Nation Leader bonus. Hypothetically speaking, from educated guess, had Vincent not been the Nation Leader, he would've lost by doing around say 360 damage compared to Anthony's 421 damage.

To me it wouldn't make sense if Harmonia received bonus from Security or Happiness on that part because if that gave them extra DEF that wasn't meant to be, then that would mean Anthony would really deal more than 421 damage which would not make much sense due to him only having 1700 soldiers more than Vincent. That number should not be enough to give significant enough extra damage to Grasslands. Even an extra 200 damage would already see Vincent's double ATK almost matched. It wouldn't make sense to almost match Vincent's double ATK by only having 1700 extra soldiers (1700 soldiers is only 28% of Vincent's number, whereas Vincent is meant to have extra 100%ATK). So whatever extra damage that Anthony was meant to deal at that battle if Harmonia received extra DEF, it should still be in the region of say ~150-ish damage which holds little to no significance because it should not overcome the Nation Leader bonus.

Now of course let's just be honest and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the focus on Grasslands vs Harmonia is the Round 2 Turn 3 battle between Zepon and Vincent Chase. Grasslands want Zepon to win that one, Harmonia want Vincent to win that one. So let's analyze the battle.

Zepon is a Crossbowmen with 6,400 soldiers, using Back Against Open Water tactics. Most likely, Zepon is also the Royal Guard for double defense. In total, we are roughly looking at x3ATK and x1 DEF.

Vincent Chase on the other hand is a Crystal Cavalry with 5,779 soldiers, using Crane Open Its Wings tactics. He is also the Nation Leader of Harmonia for double attack. In total, we are roughly looking at x1.5ATK and x1.25 DEF.

Now, we can see Grasslands' case. How can Zepon lose if he has more soldiers, more xATK modifier than losing the xDEF modifier? Possibly on top of that, Crossbowmen might have been strong against Crystal Cavalry too for a further boost on their side (this part, both Grasslands and myself would not know for sure, only admins and Harmonia leaders should know). The answer is actually quite simple. Tier 4 unit makes Tier 2 unit looks like a joke. That is your answer right there.

Zepon might have x3 ATK modifier while Vincent only has x1.25 DEF modifier. But Zepon's base ATK value must've been significantly lower than Vincent's base DEF value because of the 2 tier gap.

We can sort of see a similar case at Greenhill, namely for the battle between Starslasher (Tier 2) and Kalidor (Tier 4). Sure at that battle Kalidor had the regiment tactics advantage, but look at the gap between the damage done by Starslasher and Kalidor? Kalidor easily destroyed 3000 soldiers while Starslasher did a puny 315 damage. That is looking at guesstimate of Fire Bringers having x1 ATK modifier and x2 DEF modifier (only regiment tactics advantage) while Starslasher having x3 ATK modifier and x.5 DEF modifier.

Sure the case of Starslasher vs Kalidor isn't exactly the same as Zepon vs Vincent Chase, but that should be enough general idea to see how strong Tier 4 unit is. Even if Kalidor is given weaknesses against Starslasher, Kalidor would most likely still win as the gap between the damage is 10:1 or even larger as we can't see the actual number of damage done by Kalidor because there wasn't enough soldiers to kill.

But in the end, of course I can be wrong. So I'll just wait and see what the admins do. To be honest, I don't think that Security/Happiness would play that much of a role. Especially since Sorrow's Peak isn't exactly the most secure location in the world anyways.
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Axiose]

This discussion is going to do nothing to help in the recalculation. You'll all be informed what's happening where and when.

If you're not happy with the situation after the battles have been redone, then you can contact myself over PM.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Aurelien]

Oh I'm not posting to help in recalculation. I don't even know the calculation to begin with (only admins know this anyway, non-admins only get the very outdated war calculator to play with).

So I definitely could be wrong in my guesses, but the discussion was simply to discuss about what had happened and whether it was logical or not according to what we already know. Plus, it's always fun to discuss about battle results, it's not like we're trying to expose the secret formula. ^^
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Vextor]

NEWS FLASH: Everything has a weakness!! wOW!! aMAZING AIN'T IT!?!?!

Now, back to the topic... I've been very busy doing other stuff in REAL LIFE and thus havn't had the time to look into all of this mess, along with doing some other unfinished battles and explorations. Just stay tuned, I guess.