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Salome's coup d'état

 
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Maiazuru




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:37 am    Post subject: Salome's coup d'état Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In the manga version of Sukoden III, they expanded much upon Salome's plans about the Zexen Council. It was shown that he arrested the entire Council and detained them until the Zexen Army's involvement in the war could no longer be stopped.

However, what I'm wondering is what happened afterwards. Although I agree with Salome's reasons, the fact still remains that it was a coup d'état based on the fact that some members of the Council were traitors. But what about the members of the Council who aren't involved, who were basically innocent? There's no lawful reason to hold them, and holding them too long would bring lots of trouble to the Knights.
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Matheau




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I doubt they would do anything. The Knights rely on the belief of the people, making even one of them seem to a traitor would tarnish all of them. Besides Chris, who was a hero to the Zexens before the game started became even more so after the fact. The Zexen council even said that if her reputation became too large it would pose a danger to them, or something along those lines, in her prologue.

Maybe a slap on the wrist, but not much more. Coup d'etats which don't topple the government usually aren't talked about much, it is rather embarrassing for the government to admit.
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Maiazuru




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Still, I doubt the innocent part of the council was very happy with the idea of being held. Still, once the situation was calmer and things better explained, I suppose they'd understand. Still, I wouldn't be very happy with Salome for being treated like a criminal and traitor, Captain Chris or no Captain Chris.

There are limits which even a hero cannot cross, after all.
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Starslasher

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

And there are limits that politicians i.e. The Coucil Members, should not cross, yet we see them do.

Besides, i believe that Salome gave an appropriate and swift deal of justice. I would believe that the Zexen Council did not like it, and would have attempted bribing Salome and his Knights.

But in the end, Salome's craftiness would have had the merchants outwitted and defeated. They would have to accept their punishments, but later seek a way for them to gain more control of the Army to do their bidding.
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Eternal Wind

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There wasn't really much the council could do. The impression I got was that he put the proof of the treason on display and just held them for a couple hours until Chris and the knights were out of recallable range.
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Wataru

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

All of this also happened during wartime. Constitutional powers and standard governmental practices are often legally circumvented in wartime. Look at the US Consitution. The commander-in-chief of the military has near limitless powers during a state of official war. The system of checks and balances and the majority of civil rights can be nullified during times of real war.

Having widespread corruption in the council was a threat to national secrutity with the Harmonians invading and Luc running around. Zexen needed a strong and ready government, so the military (meaning the Zexen Knights) had to declare a sort of "martial law" until the "state of emergency" was lifted.

I'm sure that once the evens of S3 were over, the guilty parties were sorted out. Until then, Salome did what was his duty to do: protect Zexen. Salome had no ideals of crowing himself leader or president-for-life or anything ridiculous like that. It was just a necessary action at the time.
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mergle




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The trouble with arguing that Salome just simply declared "martial law" in Zexen is that it's not consistant with the structure of the government as we saw in the game - the Council controls the army, and so would be the ones to declare martial law.

(Note that this is parallel to how in the US, it's not the army, it's civillian government officials who have the power to effect martial law.)

Me, I don't think the manga writer really thought all that much about the ramifications of Salome fabricating evidence to illegally hold two Council members. It sets a bad precident, especially given that Zexen is explicitly meant to not be ruled by the military leaders. Salome also had other means to obtain evidence: they could've intercepted the messenger birds, and Percival even had testimony from a witness.

I think the Council does have the power to remove Salome from his post in both game and manga (heck, what's to stop them from fabricating evidence about him, if he's done so about them?), and that the reason they don't in the game is because he actually didn't go as far as he was shown to in the manga.

It should be noted that I also think the manga writer surgically removed Salome's ethics and Chris's backbone, and gave Caesar an IV drip of sugar and caffiene when he's not "onscreen."
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Salome

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Which volume covers this "coup d'état" you're talking about? I don't own the manga adaption, but I would be interested in reading this. Does Salome play a large role in more than one volume? If so, then maybe I should buy the whole series after all. And another question: Does any volume of the manga show Salome fighting?

It is unfortunate if the manga version does indeed depict Salome as a man without ethics, like mergle commented; his values were part of what made him such a strong character in the game.
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Vertius

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Coup occurs at the end of Volume 5 of the manga. He plays the largest role in the event, mostly speaking on behalf of the Knights, and, hence, on behalf of the Zexen people.

As for Salome fighting, I've only seen him fight in Volume 1. I haven't read them all yet, though. He swings his large mace a fair bit in that, against the Grassland forces.

As for his ethics, he definitely lives up to his beliefs. His thoughts show clearly on his face throughout the manga.

I recommend that you do get the manga. I've found them incredibly entertaining, and many believe it tells Suikoden III's story better than the game itself.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think the Zexeners were able to accept the knight's control mainly due to the fact that Chris and her team were much more popular and liked than the selfish and corrupt appearence of the council. Of course when it was found that council members were supposedly taking bribes from Harmonia - a serious threat to the Confederacy, that really doesn't help.
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Rainrir

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually the Manga depict Salome as someone who will do ANYTHING to achieve his goals. Think of him as Machiavellian, that his intent is good but his is willing to do all sorts of underhand stuff to achieve that intent.

Salome is not above using intimidation, forgery, shoot-first-ask-questions-later tactics, collaborating with foreign spies and even overriding the consititution (that the Zexen knights are basically a professional military under a civilian leadership. Although he fudge it such that it actually meant the knights serve the people...in reality they should serve the civilian leaders which represent the people...)


Still he is a good man. His belief in justice and protection of his people are absolute. Think of him as the CIA director of Zexen, who does the dirty jobs to protect his nation.
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Eggith Cyrene




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The zexen knights like most militaries take an oath to uphoad the laws of thier land and protect thier citenzry. An oath which is sworn to the people not neccasarily to any particular government.

I know in the game (dont own all the volume's of the manga yet) Salome lets the people know that a sizeable portion of the council is in league with harmonia to take over the grasslands. The people of zexen are preety furious about that. So I expect that those who didnt resign/run out of town had enough problems appeasing the populace without thinking about possible retubution against the knights/salome in particular.
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